F1 #73 - Pinnacle Portfolio
Discussion
Random question about the car that'll no doubt fetch crazy money when it's auctioned in the very near future - the sales literature states that it's one of only two F1s fitted with an uprated LM-spec engine. Given the amount of personalisation available from McLaren, could they perform the same upgrade to other F1s, assuming the owner could afford whatever exorbitant rate that would be charged?
BelfastBoy said:
Random question about the car that'll no doubt fetch crazy money when it's auctioned in the very near future - the sales literature states that it's one of only two F1s fitted with an uprated LM-spec engine. Given the amount of personalisation available from McLaren, could they perform the same upgrade to other F1s, assuming the owner could afford whatever exorbitant rate that would be charged?
No.BMW Motorsport noticed, a couple of years after F1 production has ceased, that they had a few (IRO 5)"LM" engines in inventory. They offered them to McL, who in turn offered them to current F1 owners.
Only two owners elected to have the LM engine retrofitted to standard F1s (part of the deal was that the factory required the engine retrofit to be accompanied by the High Downforce Kit. Cost of the whole job was IRO £225k.). After the window for the retrofit closed, it was not reopened.
BMW took another of the engines and put it into a very special X5, with which HJ Stuck set a stunning 'Ring time.
I do not know what happened to the unused engines (if indeed there were any), but I do know that the retrofit has been totally unavailable since 2001.
flemke said:
No.
BMW Motorsport noticed, a couple of years after F1 production has ceased, that they had a few (IRO 5)"LM" engines in inventory. They offered them to McL, who in turn offered them to current F1 owners.
Only two owners elected to have the LM engine retrofitted to standard F1s (part of the deal was that the factory required the engine retrofit to be accompanied by the High Downforce Kit. Cost of the whole job was IRO £225k.). After the window for the retrofit closed, it was not reopened.
BMW took another of the engines and put it into a very special X5, with which HJ Stuck set a stunning 'Ring time.
I do not know what happened to the unused engines (if indeed there were any), but I do know that the retrofit has been totally unavailable since 2001.
Were they fitted to the BMW V12 LMR?BMW Motorsport noticed, a couple of years after F1 production has ceased, that they had a few (IRO 5)"LM" engines in inventory. They offered them to McL, who in turn offered them to current F1 owners.
Only two owners elected to have the LM engine retrofitted to standard F1s (part of the deal was that the factory required the engine retrofit to be accompanied by the High Downforce Kit. Cost of the whole job was IRO £225k.). After the window for the retrofit closed, it was not reopened.
BMW took another of the engines and put it into a very special X5, with which HJ Stuck set a stunning 'Ring time.
I do not know what happened to the unused engines (if indeed there were any), but I do know that the retrofit has been totally unavailable since 2001.
flemke said:
No.
BMW Motorsport noticed, a couple of years after F1 production has ceased, that they had a few (IRO 5)"LM" engines in inventory. They offered them to McL, who in turn offered them to current F1 owners.
Only two owners elected to have the LM engine retrofitted to standard F1s (part of the deal was that the factory required the engine retrofit to be accompanied by the High Downforce Kit. Cost of the whole job was IRO £225k.). After the window for the retrofit closed, it was not reopened.
BMW took another of the engines and put it into a very special X5, with which HJ Stuck set a stunning 'Ring time.
I do not know what happened to the unused engines (if indeed there were any), but I do know that the retrofit has been totally unavailable since 2001.
Thanks for that, very interesting.BMW Motorsport noticed, a couple of years after F1 production has ceased, that they had a few (IRO 5)"LM" engines in inventory. They offered them to McL, who in turn offered them to current F1 owners.
Only two owners elected to have the LM engine retrofitted to standard F1s (part of the deal was that the factory required the engine retrofit to be accompanied by the High Downforce Kit. Cost of the whole job was IRO £225k.). After the window for the retrofit closed, it was not reopened.
BMW took another of the engines and put it into a very special X5, with which HJ Stuck set a stunning 'Ring time.
I do not know what happened to the unused engines (if indeed there were any), but I do know that the retrofit has been totally unavailable since 2001.
Dr JonboyG said:
flemke said:
No.
BMW Motorsport noticed, a couple of years after F1 production has ceased, that they had a few (IRO 5)"LM" engines in inventory. They offered them to McL, who in turn offered them to current F1 owners.
Only two owners elected to have the LM engine retrofitted to standard F1s (part of the deal was that the factory required the engine retrofit to be accompanied by the High Downforce Kit. Cost of the whole job was IRO £225k.). After the window for the retrofit closed, it was not reopened.
BMW took another of the engines and put it into a very special X5, with which HJ Stuck set a stunning 'Ring time.
I do not know what happened to the unused engines (if indeed there were any), but I do know that the retrofit has been totally unavailable since 2001.
Were they fitted to the BMW V12 LMR?BMW Motorsport noticed, a couple of years after F1 production has ceased, that they had a few (IRO 5)"LM" engines in inventory. They offered them to McL, who in turn offered them to current F1 owners.
Only two owners elected to have the LM engine retrofitted to standard F1s (part of the deal was that the factory required the engine retrofit to be accompanied by the High Downforce Kit. Cost of the whole job was IRO £225k.). After the window for the retrofit closed, it was not reopened.
BMW took another of the engines and put it into a very special X5, with which HJ Stuck set a stunning 'Ring time.
I do not know what happened to the unused engines (if indeed there were any), but I do know that the retrofit has been totally unavailable since 2001.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M70
This slightly surprises me. The F1's engine has 60 deg V, which was chosen for smooth running appropriate for road car. Wider v-angle, to lower CofG, would be better for racing car.
It may be that they used the same basic concepts for both, but opened the V for the racing car. Then again, 17 years ago people were only starting to get obsessive about some of this stuff.
paddy328 said:
Would the cars that had the upgraded engine be worth the same or more than a standard car? What would happen to their old engine?
I can only answer your question from a personal perspective. If I had the means, I'd be prepared to pay more for one of the upgraded cars, and I wouldn't care what had happened to the original engine. Perhaps they were retained by McLaren / BMW for parts or, if necessary, a complete replacement? Rarity counts for a lot these days, and the F1 in the Pinnacle Portfolio seems to me to be unique even among the very small amount of F1 road cars in existence. It may well set a sales record for an F1 because, as per the sales literature, it's the perfect combination of road car opulence and LM performance.Certainly it will go for a goodly amount more than a standard car would do, notwithstanding the colour/trim scheme, which is pretty dire.
The point about rarity value is important. McL made only 3 F1GTs, the road version of the Long-tail. They have no meaningful road performance advantage advantage over the normal cars (not that they are ever driven, anyhow), whilst they are truly ugly (which ugliness, unlike the irrelevancy of some extra downforce, is always present). Nonetheless, not long ago the owner of a Long-tail was bid an extraordinary price for his car, which he turned down. Rational or not, rarity counts for a lot.
As for whether the LM-engined cars are better cars, that is a different story.
On paper there is about 50 BHP (8%) in it, but a good part of that is from the free-flowing exhaust, which the factory will fit to a standard car anyhow, so the real difference in BHP is roughly 5%.
I have always said that the one thing that the (standard) F1 does not need is more power. On a video in the '90s, Mika Hakkinen, said that, in a racing car, "You never have enough power", but at the same time that the F1 road car, "Has enough power, for sure".
So the engine is "better", for whatever that is worth.
The rest of the car? I myself don't like the High Downforce Kit. I think it looks pretentious and a bit silly on a car that started out beautiful in its simplicity.
For those who are interested, the HDK def does make the car more stable at higher speeds. It also lowers the VMax and the higher speed acceleration by a meaningful amount.
With the HDK come stiffer (by about 50%) springs and dampers, with a predictable compromise in ride quality.
For me, a big issue with the HDK is that it is meant to go with different wheels and tyres, which are wider at the front than on standard car. The result is quite a reduction in steering lock, turning mini-roundabouts into 3-point turns.
I would advise anyone to ignore entirely anything that is written by an auction house. It might be correct, but auction houses tend to have neither the objective view nor the underlying knowledge necessary to say something worth relying on.
My guess is that this car will go for roughly $2m more than a standard car would do, although in the current febrile atmosphere it is hard to predict.
The point about rarity value is important. McL made only 3 F1GTs, the road version of the Long-tail. They have no meaningful road performance advantage advantage over the normal cars (not that they are ever driven, anyhow), whilst they are truly ugly (which ugliness, unlike the irrelevancy of some extra downforce, is always present). Nonetheless, not long ago the owner of a Long-tail was bid an extraordinary price for his car, which he turned down. Rational or not, rarity counts for a lot.
As for whether the LM-engined cars are better cars, that is a different story.
On paper there is about 50 BHP (8%) in it, but a good part of that is from the free-flowing exhaust, which the factory will fit to a standard car anyhow, so the real difference in BHP is roughly 5%.
I have always said that the one thing that the (standard) F1 does not need is more power. On a video in the '90s, Mika Hakkinen, said that, in a racing car, "You never have enough power", but at the same time that the F1 road car, "Has enough power, for sure".
So the engine is "better", for whatever that is worth.
The rest of the car? I myself don't like the High Downforce Kit. I think it looks pretentious and a bit silly on a car that started out beautiful in its simplicity.
For those who are interested, the HDK def does make the car more stable at higher speeds. It also lowers the VMax and the higher speed acceleration by a meaningful amount.
With the HDK come stiffer (by about 50%) springs and dampers, with a predictable compromise in ride quality.
For me, a big issue with the HDK is that it is meant to go with different wheels and tyres, which are wider at the front than on standard car. The result is quite a reduction in steering lock, turning mini-roundabouts into 3-point turns.
I would advise anyone to ignore entirely anything that is written by an auction house. It might be correct, but auction houses tend to have neither the objective view nor the underlying knowledge necessary to say something worth relying on.
My guess is that this car will go for roughly $2m more than a standard car would do, although in the current febrile atmosphere it is hard to predict.
flemke said:
Certainly it will go for a goodly amount more than a standard car would do, notwithstanding the colour/trim scheme, which is pretty dire.
The point about rarity value is important. McL made only 3 F1GTs, the road version of the Long-tail. They have no meaningful road performance advantage advantage over the normal cars (not that they are ever driven, anyhow), whilst they are truly ugly (which ugliness, unlike the irrelevancy of some extra downforce, is always present). Nonetheless, not long ago the owner of a Long-tail was bid an extraordinary price for his car, which he turned down. Rational or not, rarity counts for a lot.
As for whether the LM-engined cars are better cars, that is a different story.
On paper there is about 50 BHP (8%) in it, but a good part of that is from the free-flowing exhaust, which the factory will fit to a standard car anyhow, so the real difference in BHP is roughly 5%.
I have always said that the one thing that the (standard) F1 does not need is more power. On a video in the '90s, Mika Hakkinen, said that, in a racing car, "You never have enough power", but at the same time that the F1 road car, "Has enough power, for sure".
So the engine is "better", for whatever that is worth.
The rest of the car? I myself don't like the High Downforce Kit. I think it looks pretentious and a bit silly on a car that started out beautiful in its simplicity.
For those who are interested, the HDK def does make the car more stable at higher speeds. It also lowers the VMax and the higher speed acceleration by a meaningful amount.
With the HDK come stiffer (by about 50%) springs and dampers, with a predictable compromise in ride quality.
For me, a big issue with the HDK is that it is meant to go with different wheels and tyres, which are wider at the front than on standard car. The result is quite a reduction in steering lock, turning mini-roundabouts into 3-point turns.
I would advise anyone to ignore entirely anything that is written by an auction house. It might be correct, but auction houses tend to have neither the objective view nor the underlying knowledge necessary to say something worth relying on.
My guess is that this car will go for roughly $2m more than a standard car would do, although in the current febrile atmosphere it is hard to predict.
I wish this forum had a 'like' button like Facebook,as then I could express thanks for ever-fascinating insights like this.The point about rarity value is important. McL made only 3 F1GTs, the road version of the Long-tail. They have no meaningful road performance advantage advantage over the normal cars (not that they are ever driven, anyhow), whilst they are truly ugly (which ugliness, unlike the irrelevancy of some extra downforce, is always present). Nonetheless, not long ago the owner of a Long-tail was bid an extraordinary price for his car, which he turned down. Rational or not, rarity counts for a lot.
As for whether the LM-engined cars are better cars, that is a different story.
On paper there is about 50 BHP (8%) in it, but a good part of that is from the free-flowing exhaust, which the factory will fit to a standard car anyhow, so the real difference in BHP is roughly 5%.
I have always said that the one thing that the (standard) F1 does not need is more power. On a video in the '90s, Mika Hakkinen, said that, in a racing car, "You never have enough power", but at the same time that the F1 road car, "Has enough power, for sure".
So the engine is "better", for whatever that is worth.
The rest of the car? I myself don't like the High Downforce Kit. I think it looks pretentious and a bit silly on a car that started out beautiful in its simplicity.
For those who are interested, the HDK def does make the car more stable at higher speeds. It also lowers the VMax and the higher speed acceleration by a meaningful amount.
With the HDK come stiffer (by about 50%) springs and dampers, with a predictable compromise in ride quality.
For me, a big issue with the HDK is that it is meant to go with different wheels and tyres, which are wider at the front than on standard car. The result is quite a reduction in steering lock, turning mini-roundabouts into 3-point turns.
I would advise anyone to ignore entirely anything that is written by an auction house. It might be correct, but auction houses tend to have neither the objective view nor the underlying knowledge necessary to say something worth relying on.
My guess is that this car will go for roughly $2m more than a standard car would do, although in the current febrile atmosphere it is hard to predict.
I'll never be an F1 owner but,for what it's worth,I love the look of the car with the HDK fitted,especially the rear wing.But fully take your point about the simplicity of the original design.Amazing to think its over two decades old now!
Also totally agree about the ugliness of the GT.The compactness and clean lines of the original shape are ruined, and it just doesnt look right at all.It looked a bit better as a racing car (maybe because the rear wing balanced the extended tail) but by then McLaren were playing catchup against the rule-stretching 'road car-derived,honest' Porsche GT1,Mercedes CLK etc.
very unique and the last Enzo made.
'One of the headline cars is this 2005 Ferrari Enzo, named after founder Enzo Ferrari. Only 400 of the 660 horsepower V12 supercars were built. Originally it had a base price of almost $700,000. This was the last one built, which Ferrari gave to Pope John Paul II. He requested it be auctioned with proceeds going to victims of the 2004 tsunami. At the time, it was sold by Sotheby's for $1.1 million.
Inside, Luca Corderi di Montezemolo, Ferrari's chairman at the time, wrote (in Italian) "This Enzo, unique in the history of Ferrari, [was made] as a sign of solidarity for those suffering, inspired by a Great Pope, John Paul II"
'One of the headline cars is this 2005 Ferrari Enzo, named after founder Enzo Ferrari. Only 400 of the 660 horsepower V12 supercars were built. Originally it had a base price of almost $700,000. This was the last one built, which Ferrari gave to Pope John Paul II. He requested it be auctioned with proceeds going to victims of the 2004 tsunami. At the time, it was sold by Sotheby's for $1.1 million.
Inside, Luca Corderi di Montezemolo, Ferrari's chairman at the time, wrote (in Italian) "This Enzo, unique in the history of Ferrari, [was made] as a sign of solidarity for those suffering, inspired by a Great Pope, John Paul II"
SydneyBridge said:
very unique and the last Enzo made.
'One of the headline cars is this 2005 Ferrari Enzo, named after founder Enzo Ferrari. Only 400 of the 660 horsepower V12 supercars were built. Originally it had a base price of almost $700,000. This was the last one built, which Ferrari gave to Pope John Paul II. He requested it be auctioned with proceeds going to victims of the 2004 tsunami. At the time, it was sold by Sotheby's for $1.1 million.
Inside, Luca Corderi di Montezemolo, Ferrari's chairman at the time, wrote (in Italian) "This Enzo, unique in the history of Ferrari, [was made] as a sign of solidarity for those suffering, inspired by a Great Pope, John Paul II"
it wasn't the last one ever made'One of the headline cars is this 2005 Ferrari Enzo, named after founder Enzo Ferrari. Only 400 of the 660 horsepower V12 supercars were built. Originally it had a base price of almost $700,000. This was the last one built, which Ferrari gave to Pope John Paul II. He requested it be auctioned with proceeds going to victims of the 2004 tsunami. At the time, it was sold by Sotheby's for $1.1 million.
Inside, Luca Corderi di Montezemolo, Ferrari's chairman at the time, wrote (in Italian) "This Enzo, unique in the history of Ferrari, [was made] as a sign of solidarity for those suffering, inspired by a Great Pope, John Paul II"
completely overpriced!
the f1 went for less than I personally expected though
SydneyBridge said:
very unique and the last Enzo made.
'One of the headline cars is this 2005 Ferrari Enzo, named after founder Enzo Ferrari. Only 400 of the 660 horsepower V12 supercars were built. Originally it had a base price of almost $700,000. This was the last one built, which Ferrari gave to Pope John Paul II. He requested it be auctioned with proceeds going to victims of the 2004 tsunami. At the time, it was sold by Sotheby's for $1.1 million.
Not so sure that "only 400" were built 'One of the headline cars is this 2005 Ferrari Enzo, named after founder Enzo Ferrari. Only 400 of the 660 horsepower V12 supercars were built. Originally it had a base price of almost $700,000. This was the last one built, which Ferrari gave to Pope John Paul II. He requested it be auctioned with proceeds going to victims of the 2004 tsunami. At the time, it was sold by Sotheby's for $1.1 million.
BelfastBoy said:
Sad to note that, in among all the big numbers, the Koenigsegg sold below the estimate. So, even in the crazy bubble that's showing no signs of stopping, is it fair to say that Koenigsegg as a marque still hasn't quite made it to the 'top table' of prestige cars yet?
They had Christian von Koenigsegg on stage for the sale as well, talking about the CCXR. Very difficult to join the top table of the supercar world. Pagani has managed it because - IMO - its cars are a work of art, and there is that coolness you associate with Italian brands. McLaren is there because of its racing heritage, the legendary status of the F1, and downright quality. The P1s sold in Monterey were selling for around the $2 million (£1.3m) mark. Pretty good for a car that cost £866,000 new, earlier this year.
Koenigsegg, ultimately, is built by a passionate engineer, on an airfield in Sweden, and with no racing history. Like Noble, Ascari, and some others, I can't really see them joining the auction elite anytime soon regardless of how quick their cars go.
Also interesting to note how the Veyron did. 001 sold for £1.17 million. I know they are quite common cars, but seems good value for what is the first of one of the most important performance cars in history. Veyron 300 (a SuperSport) went for £1.48 million.
mrloudly said:
"Pretty good for a car that cost £866,000 new, earlier this year"
That's the basic price, not sure on the Monterey cars but I don't believe there's many basic P1's. A quick Google of "Average P1 price" puts 75% above a million quid. Still not a bad return mind ;-)
Correct, and also it is not really accurate to say that they were going for that price "earlier this year". The build run was sold out by November 2013, as soon as the last order was taken up they were trading at a premium, and McLaren had a waiting list of more than 100.That's the basic price, not sure on the Monterey cars but I don't believe there's many basic P1's. A quick Google of "Average P1 price" puts 75% above a million quid. Still not a bad return mind ;-)
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