Road trip in a 70's or 80's Ferrari? Bad idea?
Discussion
Hi all,
I've owned various air cooled Porsche classics (1966 911 through to 1996 993), DB9, few other things. But sold everything just before the pandemic as I was starting a new house build and just fancied a clear out and a change.
In addition, me and my wife are just about to have our first child, and I'm thinking that a road trip to the south of France or suchlike would be a good couple of weeks away in late summer. Chuck everything in a car and holiday at our own pace, rather than fighting with taking a heap of baby stuff on an aircraft etc.
I would love to buy another classic to do the trip in, and clearly need something with 4 seats and a bit of space for luggage. The 'sensible' answer is just buy another old 911. But I've kind of done that to death really, plus I tend to find air cooled 911's a bit cramped inside, and want something fractionally more boxy and more roomy.
The more I look at slightly obscure Ferrari 2+2's models, the more they really appeal to me. I love the classic boxy looks, and presume they will waft along and provide a modicum of comfort.
Thinking of a 400 or 308 GT4 such as the below links.
But is this really a good idea? Does anyone actually drive these things for long distances and suffer no trouble? I've chatted to various people over the years about 60's and 70's Ferrari's and they always make jokes about "Spent more time on a recovery truck than being driven" and all that sort of thing, which is a bit off putting.
Is it realistic to buy a half decent well maintained example of a 400/308 and simply check the oil then set off on a 2000 mile trip?
I mentioned my previous classic Porsche history to show that I'm not alien to classic car ownership, and I have a great feel for mechanical sympathy or if something doesn't sound right or feel right with an old car, but perhaps some classics are just more reliable than others.
Any advice welcome.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133727916306?hash=item1...
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/12274044
I've owned various air cooled Porsche classics (1966 911 through to 1996 993), DB9, few other things. But sold everything just before the pandemic as I was starting a new house build and just fancied a clear out and a change.
In addition, me and my wife are just about to have our first child, and I'm thinking that a road trip to the south of France or suchlike would be a good couple of weeks away in late summer. Chuck everything in a car and holiday at our own pace, rather than fighting with taking a heap of baby stuff on an aircraft etc.
I would love to buy another classic to do the trip in, and clearly need something with 4 seats and a bit of space for luggage. The 'sensible' answer is just buy another old 911. But I've kind of done that to death really, plus I tend to find air cooled 911's a bit cramped inside, and want something fractionally more boxy and more roomy.
The more I look at slightly obscure Ferrari 2+2's models, the more they really appeal to me. I love the classic boxy looks, and presume they will waft along and provide a modicum of comfort.
Thinking of a 400 or 308 GT4 such as the below links.
But is this really a good idea? Does anyone actually drive these things for long distances and suffer no trouble? I've chatted to various people over the years about 60's and 70's Ferrari's and they always make jokes about "Spent more time on a recovery truck than being driven" and all that sort of thing, which is a bit off putting.
Is it realistic to buy a half decent well maintained example of a 400/308 and simply check the oil then set off on a 2000 mile trip?
I mentioned my previous classic Porsche history to show that I'm not alien to classic car ownership, and I have a great feel for mechanical sympathy or if something doesn't sound right or feel right with an old car, but perhaps some classics are just more reliable than others.
Any advice welcome.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133727916306?hash=item1...
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/12274044
To my mind buying any classic and immediately setting off on a long road trip has some risk involved.
I'd want to have owned the car for a while and learnt its habits/reliability before doing that.
There's also the question of how available "dealer support" will be once you're on the road. For some brands dealers are few and far between.
I'd want to have owned the car for a while and learnt its habits/reliability before doing that.
There's also the question of how available "dealer support" will be once you're on the road. For some brands dealers are few and far between.
Are you suggesting that you do a European road trip holiday with a brand new baby?
I know I'd not have had the energy to do it... And I'm sure the recommendation is that babies shouldn't be in car seats for too long (can't recall why). Obviously, YMMV but for us, new borns were full on!
Saying that, we did go to NZ with a 6 month old, and then again with a few days 4 month old and 2 year old!
If I've got it wrong (probably), then I'd echo that some ownership period to get a feel for the car, and get any critical bits fixed, before the big trip.
I know I'd not have had the energy to do it... And I'm sure the recommendation is that babies shouldn't be in car seats for too long (can't recall why). Obviously, YMMV but for us, new borns were full on!
Saying that, we did go to NZ with a 6 month old, and then again with a few days 4 month old and 2 year old!
If I've got it wrong (probably), then I'd echo that some ownership period to get a feel for the car, and get any critical bits fixed, before the big trip.
I did this in a 208 GT 4 ( they are all LHD btw ) Bought at Auction…..shock horror I feel you are thinking .
As simple as a wheel barrow compared to modern day stuff .
As soon a drove it away I realised it needed new suspension bushes .
Over hauled that checked over the rest and fitted fresh Yokohama’s and off I went .
Yorkshire to Switzerland/ Italy .2019 spent 3/4 Months with it in the EU .Even did a classic car rallye in CH .Was fine at 80 mph on the auto routes in summer .AC was ok ish , took a bottle of gas to top up etc .
Boot is big ish rear seats ok for stuff but a bit cramped for a kiddie car seat I think .
Beauty of this was obvious LHD and it’s tiny size relatively to modern stuff .
I think a V12 400i is bigger but hugely more risky esp if injection .?? Even tyres if TRX if you need a new one etc = hassle etc .
Won some trophies .The rugs to soak up the oil leaks .I’ve since done them it’s now dry .
As simple as a wheel barrow compared to modern day stuff .
As soon a drove it away I realised it needed new suspension bushes .
Over hauled that checked over the rest and fitted fresh Yokohama’s and off I went .
Yorkshire to Switzerland/ Italy .2019 spent 3/4 Months with it in the EU .Even did a classic car rallye in CH .Was fine at 80 mph on the auto routes in summer .AC was ok ish , took a bottle of gas to top up etc .
Boot is big ish rear seats ok for stuff but a bit cramped for a kiddie car seat I think .
Beauty of this was obvious LHD and it’s tiny size relatively to modern stuff .
I think a V12 400i is bigger but hugely more risky esp if injection .?? Even tyres if TRX if you need a new one etc = hassle etc .
Won some trophies .The rugs to soak up the oil leaks .I’ve since done them it’s now dry .
Panamax said:
To my mind buying any classic and immediately setting off on a long road trip has some risk involved.
I'd want to have owned the car for a while and learnt its habits/reliability before doing that.
There's also the question of how available "dealer support" will be once you're on the road. For some brands dealers are few and far between.
I totally accept that absolutely any car is a risk, even modern ones, and I would make sure I had the best available European breakdown and recovery cover.I'd want to have owned the car for a while and learnt its habits/reliability before doing that.
There's also the question of how available "dealer support" will be once you're on the road. For some brands dealers are few and far between.
If it did break down badly i would just accept that i tried, have it recovered to England, and hire a car for the rest of the trip. Or something along those lines.
But i was just curious if anyone would say “no chance. These things break down every 5 minutes even you look after them” or anything along those lines.
RemarkLima said:
Are you suggesting that you do a European road trip holiday with a brand new baby?
I know I'd not have had the energy to do it... And I'm sure the recommendation is that babies shouldn't be in car seats for too long (can't recall why). Obviously, YMMV but for us, new borns were full on!
Saying that, we did go to NZ with a 6 month old, and then again with a few days 4 month old and 2 year old!
If I've got it wrong (probably), then I'd echo that some ownership period to get a feel for the car, and get any critical bits fixed, before the big trip.
The baby would be at least 6-7 months, (or we might leave it until next spring) and we are fairly happy to put the effort in and our reasoning is we might as well look after a baby while still trying to do some interesting things, rather than spend the next 2 years sat at home.I know I'd not have had the energy to do it... And I'm sure the recommendation is that babies shouldn't be in car seats for too long (can't recall why). Obviously, YMMV but for us, new borns were full on!
Saying that, we did go to NZ with a 6 month old, and then again with a few days 4 month old and 2 year old!
If I've got it wrong (probably), then I'd echo that some ownership period to get a feel for the car, and get any critical bits fixed, before the big trip.
Everyone has told us to do as much as we can before they get to the ‘toddler’ age, as it’s actually easier when they can’t walk!
I absolutely agree with your point about car seats and babies, and was aware of that. Whatever we do will be with the minimum number of hours in a car seat, and following any guidance on the matter.
I’m thinking that a few hours of travelling spread over a few days wouldn’t be any worse than taking a 6 month old on 13 hour flights, which plenty of people seem to.
At least we would he able to stop and get out at any time!
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Absolutely barking mad to even consider it… in a good way.
However, given your contingency - hire a car and have the Ferrari recovered in the event that anything serious lets go - if you can swallow the associated costs then I say go for it. It’ll be a memorable adventure for sure regardless of which way it goes!
However, given your contingency - hire a car and have the Ferrari recovered in the event that anything serious lets go - if you can swallow the associated costs then I say go for it. It’ll be a memorable adventure for sure regardless of which way it goes!
I have a 308 and a 328 that are regularly used and they're dead reliable. The odd fungible fixture and fitting but mechanically rock solid. A good GT4 should be the same with added practicality.
The V12's are reliable too but key will be finding a regularly used and properly maintained one at sensible money.
The V12's are reliable too but key will be finding a regularly used and properly maintained one at sensible money.
For the same reasons as you (kids) i have owned several 308 GT4's and then going on to a number of 365 GT4's finding the 308 a little
cramped,two 400's followed the 365's but were a disappointment compared to it's forerunner,
Your right in looking for a manual 400, unless you have one leg avoid a automatic one,the engine and gearbox is a terrible match.
Although we've done long trips in the UK i've never been brave enough to take one abroard mainly because of there age,
The problems you would occur in the UK even far from home would be a doddle compared to being in Europe especially with wifey
and baby aboard as i found out to my cost in my lhd 465 in southern Spain,minor issues if at home but a nightmare while on holiday.
Spent the 3 weeks in a hired Focus ,not a real problem in itself especially as the air conditioning was ice cold vs the Ferrari one didn't
work at all and being black with black interior didn't help either, Last trips to Spain have been in my now daughters lhd MX5 ,just as
enjoyable if a little slower.
After saying that part of a enjoyable road trip is the car you are in so as long as you take the necessary precautions take a deep breath
and go for it .
cramped,two 400's followed the 365's but were a disappointment compared to it's forerunner,
Your right in looking for a manual 400, unless you have one leg avoid a automatic one,the engine and gearbox is a terrible match.
Although we've done long trips in the UK i've never been brave enough to take one abroard mainly because of there age,
The problems you would occur in the UK even far from home would be a doddle compared to being in Europe especially with wifey
and baby aboard as i found out to my cost in my lhd 465 in southern Spain,minor issues if at home but a nightmare while on holiday.
Spent the 3 weeks in a hired Focus ,not a real problem in itself especially as the air conditioning was ice cold vs the Ferrari one didn't
work at all and being black with black interior didn't help either, Last trips to Spain have been in my now daughters lhd MX5 ,just as
enjoyable if a little slower.
After saying that part of a enjoyable road trip is the car you are in so as long as you take the necessary precautions take a deep breath
and go for it .
rat rod said:
For the same reasons as you (kids) i have owned several 308 GT4's and then going on to a number of 365 GT4's finding the 308 a little
cramped,two 400's followed the 365's but were a disappointment compared to it's forerunner,
Your right in looking for a manual 400, unless you have one leg avoid a automatic one,the engine and gearbox is a terrible match.
Although we've done long trips in the UK i've never been brave enough to take one abroard mainly because of there age,
The problems you would occur in the UK even far from home would be a doddle compared to being in Europe especially with wifey
and baby aboard as i found out to my cost in my lhd 465 in southern Spain,minor issues if at home but a nightmare while on holiday.
Spent the 3 weeks in a hired Focus ,not a real problem in itself especially as the air conditioning was ice cold vs the Ferrari one didn't
work at all and being black with black interior didn't help either, Last trips to Spain have been in my now daughters lhd MX5 ,just as
enjoyable if a little slower.
After saying that part of a enjoyable road trip is the car you are in so as long as you take the necessary precautions take a deep breath
and go for it .
Really interesting, thanks.cramped,two 400's followed the 365's but were a disappointment compared to it's forerunner,
Your right in looking for a manual 400, unless you have one leg avoid a automatic one,the engine and gearbox is a terrible match.
Although we've done long trips in the UK i've never been brave enough to take one abroard mainly because of there age,
The problems you would occur in the UK even far from home would be a doddle compared to being in Europe especially with wifey
and baby aboard as i found out to my cost in my lhd 465 in southern Spain,minor issues if at home but a nightmare while on holiday.
Spent the 3 weeks in a hired Focus ,not a real problem in itself especially as the air conditioning was ice cold vs the Ferrari one didn't
work at all and being black with black interior didn't help either, Last trips to Spain have been in my now daughters lhd MX5 ,just as
enjoyable if a little slower.
After saying that part of a enjoyable road trip is the car you are in so as long as you take the necessary precautions take a deep breath
and go for it .
As I said earlier, I’m fully prepared for the whole ‘could breakdown abroad’ and then have to get a hire car. It would be a bit disappointing, but not the end of the world.
What you said about not being brave enough to take one abroad is my worry, and what I was mostly interested in hearing about.
I imagine 99% of classic cars, including Ferrari’s, are kept in the garage, and taken out once a month to do a 40 mile round trip to a country pub and back, which is fine, but I would be reassured by hearing from people who take them out and drive 350 miles to Scotland in them or whatever, or to France.
If everyone is too scared to take them more than an hour or so from home because they don’t trust them not to break down, then that (unfortunately) tells the whole story really.
I have looked at other models, but the modern 2+2 Ferrari’s seem less appealing than the older ones.
The California is no doubt a very good, reliable, and useable car, but the styling isn’t for me, and the back seats are just totally unusable, even for kids.
The 612 just doesn’t appeal to me either because of the looks. It’s just like a blob of jelly with ugly headlights.
The 456 is prettier than the 612, but again the styling just isn’t doing it for me as much as the 365/400/412.
The classic 365/400/412 seem to have just aged really well to my eyes, and the once boxy styling now reeks of cool. But of course it’s a trade off isn’t it? I’m sure the 456 would be a massively better car all round, especially for driving, and for less money than a 412, but I just don’t find it as cool to look at…
Lord Marylebone said:
Really interesting, thanks.
As I said earlier, I’m fully prepared for the whole ‘could breakdown abroad’ and then have to get a hire car. It would be a bit disappointing, but not the end of the world.
What you said about not being brave enough to take one abroad is my worry, and what I was mostly interested in hearing about.
I imagine 99% of classic cars, including Ferrari’s, are kept in the garage, and taken out once a month to do a 40 mile round trip to a country pub and back, which is fine, but I would be reassured by hearing from people who take them out and drive 350 miles to Scotland in them or whatever, or to France.
If everyone is too scared to take them more than an hour or so from home because they don’t trust them not to break down, then that (unfortunately) tells the whole story really.
I have looked at other models, but the modern 2+2 Ferrari’s seem less appealing than the older ones.
The California is no doubt a very good, reliable, and useable car, but the styling isn’t for me, and the back seats are just totally unusable, even for kids.
The 612 just doesn’t appeal to me either because of the looks. It’s just like a blob of jelly with ugly headlights.
The 456 is prettier than the 612, but again the styling just isn’t doing it for me as much as the 365/400/412.
The classic 365/400/412 seem to have just aged really well to my eyes, and the once boxy styling now reeks of cool. But of course it’s a trade off isn’t it? I’m sure the 456 would be a massively better car all round, especially for driving, and for less money than a 412, but I just don’t find it as cool to look at…
Agree ,the 465 never did it for me either,sold it not long after the holiday after struggling to get past a well driven As I said earlier, I’m fully prepared for the whole ‘could breakdown abroad’ and then have to get a hire car. It would be a bit disappointing, but not the end of the world.
What you said about not being brave enough to take one abroad is my worry, and what I was mostly interested in hearing about.
I imagine 99% of classic cars, including Ferrari’s, are kept in the garage, and taken out once a month to do a 40 mile round trip to a country pub and back, which is fine, but I would be reassured by hearing from people who take them out and drive 350 miles to Scotland in them or whatever, or to France.
If everyone is too scared to take them more than an hour or so from home because they don’t trust them not to break down, then that (unfortunately) tells the whole story really.
I have looked at other models, but the modern 2+2 Ferrari’s seem less appealing than the older ones.
The California is no doubt a very good, reliable, and useable car, but the styling isn’t for me, and the back seats are just totally unusable, even for kids.
The 612 just doesn’t appeal to me either because of the looks. It’s just like a blob of jelly with ugly headlights.
The 456 is prettier than the 612, but again the styling just isn’t doing it for me as much as the 365/400/412.
The classic 365/400/412 seem to have just aged really well to my eyes, and the once boxy styling now reeks of cool. But of course it’s a trade off isn’t it? I’m sure the 456 would be a massively better car all round, especially for driving, and for less money than a 412, but I just don’t find it as cool to look at…
E46 M3 and a Italian registered Mercedes Diesel on the way home,mind you that was four up plus luggage.
As you say the 365/400/412 has turned from the unwanted least desirable Ferrari into a timeless classic when
less is more, they come into their own on the Euopean motorways just getting into their stride at over a 120mph and beyond,
Can be a little clumsy with the manual box in built up tight areas where the 308 GT4 would be better.
Never been in a second world war fighter plane but would liken it to that punching through the gearbox to cruising speed
especially a Webber carburetted car,
How the f
k did that happen. I had a 308 GT4 and it was mega reliable and we regularly drove on the continent with it. We had a ball and it was surprisingly practical as lots of room for luggage.
Downsides were:
Air con is a bit weedy by modern standards. Didn’t bother me but is more important if you are taking a baby
Wipers - crap. Really struggled in the big downpours that you get on the continent
Headlights double crap. Can’t travel at night at any sort of speed.
Might be a bit noisy in the cabin with a baby trying to sleep
Writing this post brings back lots of great memories. They are simple and robust cars - just do it!
Downsides were:
Air con is a bit weedy by modern standards. Didn’t bother me but is more important if you are taking a baby
Wipers - crap. Really struggled in the big downpours that you get on the continent
Headlights double crap. Can’t travel at night at any sort of speed.
Might be a bit noisy in the cabin with a baby trying to sleep
Writing this post brings back lots of great memories. They are simple and robust cars - just do it!
Biglips said:
I had a 308 GT4 and it was mega reliable and we regularly drove on the continent with it. We had a ball and it was surprisingly practical as lots of room for luggage.
Downsides were:
Air con is a bit weedy by modern standards. Didn’t bother me but is more important if you are taking a baby
Wipers - crap. Really struggled in the big downpours that you get on the continent
Headlights double crap. Can’t travel at night at any sort of speed.
Might be a bit noisy in the cabin with a baby trying to sleep
Writing this post brings back lots of great memories. They are simple and robust cars - just do it!
Having owned various classic 911's... believe me, I am well used to headlights worse than candles, pointless wipers, and air con that was capable of simply blowing luke-warm air at you!Downsides were:
Air con is a bit weedy by modern standards. Didn’t bother me but is more important if you are taking a baby
Wipers - crap. Really struggled in the big downpours that you get on the continent
Headlights double crap. Can’t travel at night at any sort of speed.
Might be a bit noisy in the cabin with a baby trying to sleep
Writing this post brings back lots of great memories. They are simple and robust cars - just do it!
I'll also add in, cramped footwells that leave your feet offset in an awkward position compared to your hips...
Lord Marylebone said:
Having owned various classic 911's... believe me, I am well used to headlights worse than candles, pointless wipers, and air con that was capable of simply blowing luke-warm air at you!
I'll also add in, cramped footwells that leave your feet offset in an awkward position compared to your hips...
The offset footwell is a very good reason to get a LHD Ferrari. The intrusion of the wheel arch is much less of an issue in LHD cars than it is in RHD.I'll also add in, cramped footwells that leave your feet offset in an awkward position compared to your hips...
And while it’s not a classic 2+2, if you’re looking at Calis and 612s, you’d be crazy not to consider an FF.
3 series wipers
1- You can put longer blades on the wipers .
2- Also ermy paper up the torpedo fuses and contacts of the 70 ( in period ) fuse board .
3- If you really are hands on remove the motor ( std 70 s IT car part ubiquitous) dismantle and clean up the commutator.
Lights
I have a LHD never noticed a light issue but again because they are simple as a wheel barrow just pop into Halfords and buy better bulbs .
Seats or comfortable, but even with LHD you do get a bit of hip misalignment ache after 10 hrs .
Noise .
The ANSA quad pipe jobbie is sporty and increases it raucousness over 3500 rpm ( like most sports exhausts ) That’s about 70 mph ish .80 mph and it’s full chatting so to speak .
So I retro fitted the period correct single pipe exhaust.It’s far quieter on motorways at the higher speeds circa 4000 rpm .
Stowage .
Yes the boots ample + rear plus 2 seating , large door pockets and big glove box .You could get some stuff in the frunk where the spare is as well , soft coats etc .
AC
The AC condenser freezers over every few hrs .You have to turn it off and put a towel over the passengers feet to collect the drips .Once it defrosts and thus allows air through it fine .
The wet passenger feet thingy is a GT 4 idiosyncratic thingy .
To help I put a yellow cotton cloth tailored to fit over the dash .The dash is wide to the screen black shiny plastic .No sundim glass here .So it absorbs heat ….unless you cover it .Works a treat .
As said by now the AC pipage should be updated to modern R 32 stuff .The old OEM pipes leaked the gas .
Once all this is done the AC in the EU sumner is fine .
1- You can put longer blades on the wipers .
2- Also ermy paper up the torpedo fuses and contacts of the 70 ( in period ) fuse board .
3- If you really are hands on remove the motor ( std 70 s IT car part ubiquitous) dismantle and clean up the commutator.
Lights
I have a LHD never noticed a light issue but again because they are simple as a wheel barrow just pop into Halfords and buy better bulbs .
Seats or comfortable, but even with LHD you do get a bit of hip misalignment ache after 10 hrs .
Noise .
The ANSA quad pipe jobbie is sporty and increases it raucousness over 3500 rpm ( like most sports exhausts ) That’s about 70 mph ish .80 mph and it’s full chatting so to speak .
So I retro fitted the period correct single pipe exhaust.It’s far quieter on motorways at the higher speeds circa 4000 rpm .
Stowage .
Yes the boots ample + rear plus 2 seating , large door pockets and big glove box .You could get some stuff in the frunk where the spare is as well , soft coats etc .
AC
The AC condenser freezers over every few hrs .You have to turn it off and put a towel over the passengers feet to collect the drips .Once it defrosts and thus allows air through it fine .
The wet passenger feet thingy is a GT 4 idiosyncratic thingy .
To help I put a yellow cotton cloth tailored to fit over the dash .The dash is wide to the screen black shiny plastic .No sundim glass here .So it absorbs heat ….unless you cover it .Works a treat .
As said by now the AC pipage should be updated to modern R 32 stuff .The old OEM pipes leaked the gas .
Once all this is done the AC in the EU sumner is fine .
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