Discussion
Just wondered if there's any recommendations for the most recognised experts in the UK to inspect an F40 and know if it's original genuine example. I've seen a few stories of cars that were heavily crashed or completely burnt out, but these cars have been resurrected as excellent original ferrari classiche certified cars.
Thanks for the recommendations. Sounds like Aldo or DK so far then. I've met Aldo and James Cottingham at race tracks a couple of times so will try them for some initial advice. Looking at verious Web sites there's quite a lot for sale. Mostly POA now. I get the feeling the market is a bit softer than it use to be.
If it's an F40, then you can't really go wrong with DK. I'm sure they've seen more F40s than anyone else.
John Pogson at Italia Autosport is also highly recommended. As is Bob Houghton.
Those three I can vouch for. I've never spoken to Aldo, but always hear good things about him.
There's also a well-told story on PH somewhere about my old boss Jeff Fosker almost certainly saving someone from an F40 'fireball' incident after the individual was given bad advice from a so-called specialist. It probably goes without saying that I'd recommend Foskers too.
-Ed
John Pogson at Italia Autosport is also highly recommended. As is Bob Houghton.
Those three I can vouch for. I've never spoken to Aldo, but always hear good things about him.
There's also a well-told story on PH somewhere about my old boss Jeff Fosker almost certainly saving someone from an F40 'fireball' incident after the individual was given bad advice from a so-called specialist. It probably goes without saying that I'd recommend Foskers too.
-Ed
gt2-r said:
Just wondered if there's any recommendations for the most recognised experts in the UK to inspect an F40 and know if it's original genuine example. I've seen a few stories of cars that were heavily crashed or completely burnt out, but these cars have been resurrected as excellent original ferrari classiche certified cars.
I put together a short buyers guide for the F40. BoxerF50 said:
gt2-r said:
Just wondered if there's any recommendations for the most recognised experts in the UK to inspect an F40 and know if it's original genuine example. I've seen a few stories of cars that were heavily crashed or completely burnt out, but these cars have been resurrected as excellent original ferrari classiche certified cars.
I put together a short buyers guide for the F40. It is posted: http://karenable.com/ferrari-f40-buying-advice/BTW you will probably save yourself a lot of hassle by simply doing a bit of research on the Vin number
Obviously last year we had the issue of F40s being described as perfect without mentioning they had be badly crashed, stollen and burnt to pieces
In two of the cases the photos of the cars which proved the sales descriptions to be wrong were relatively easy to find on the internet
For example with 80726 last year we had this great sales description:
Being a 1989 car with no catalytic converter, no adjustable suspension and the Plexiglass sliding side windows, this F40 comes in the most desirable configuration. It's racked up just 367 miles since a $350,000 restoration done by Ferrari's favorite specialist.
Not that it's been used a lot before. Up until it landed at Carrozzeria Zanasi for the full teardown last year, it had covered less than 1800 miles since new.
The story goes that the car was originally supplied to Herr Wolfgang Denzel in Austria in June 1989 and had its 1,500 km 'Free Service Coupon' honored on June 26th, 1989, with its next service completed on April 20th, 1990 by the supplying dealer. The car then went to an Italian collector who already owned an F40 and intended to convert this new car to LM specification. However, this conversation never took place. The car became a static display vehicle for over 20 years, before being sold to the UK.
Maranello's Carrozzeria Zanasi has been working with the factory since 1964, and today, the coachbuilders share their services with Ferrari's "Classiche" Department, preparing classic Ferraris and Maseratis in the painstaking manner demanded to earn a Ferrari Certificate of Authenticity. As it turns out, for an F40 that's been basically sitting for more than two decades, that meant a $350,000 restoration.
However a quick search on the internet comes up with this on FChat - funny that they didn't think a potential buyer would have been interested in these details
In June 1989 80726 was sold new through official dealer Wolfgang Denzel in Austria to the first owner, Baron Dr. Franz Mayr-Melnhof-Saurau, of Frohnleiten, one of the wealthiest Austrians at the time.
Franz Mayr-Melnhof was a very tall man and had difficulties to sit properly in the F40. He decided to have the car sent to Michelotto in Padova, Italy, to modify the roof with two double bubbles.
Franz Mayr-Melnhof, on the way back from Padova to Austria, was passenger in his Ferrari F40 on the motorway Udine-Pontebba in Italy, Thursday night, June 3, 1993, when the car crashed near Pontebba. He was airlifted to the special University clinic for burnt people in Munich, Germany where sadly he passed away on Monday, the 14th June 1993. He was just 44 years.
Driver of the car had been his friend and assistant Count Johann Thun-Hohenstein, aged 56, who was killed in the car.
The F40 had crashed into an Armco barrier coming out of the road (like a ramp) and the car was catapulted into the air. After some somersaulting the wreck came to a stop near the entrance of a motorway service station. The car was very badly damaged and burnt heavily.
The wreck later ended up at a body shop in Maranello.
The following pix were taken in Italy in May 1997 (four years after the crash).
Obviously last year we had the issue of F40s being described as perfect without mentioning they had be badly crashed, stollen and burnt to pieces
In two of the cases the photos of the cars which proved the sales descriptions to be wrong were relatively easy to find on the internet
For example with 80726 last year we had this great sales description:
Being a 1989 car with no catalytic converter, no adjustable suspension and the Plexiglass sliding side windows, this F40 comes in the most desirable configuration. It's racked up just 367 miles since a $350,000 restoration done by Ferrari's favorite specialist.
Not that it's been used a lot before. Up until it landed at Carrozzeria Zanasi for the full teardown last year, it had covered less than 1800 miles since new.
The story goes that the car was originally supplied to Herr Wolfgang Denzel in Austria in June 1989 and had its 1,500 km 'Free Service Coupon' honored on June 26th, 1989, with its next service completed on April 20th, 1990 by the supplying dealer. The car then went to an Italian collector who already owned an F40 and intended to convert this new car to LM specification. However, this conversation never took place. The car became a static display vehicle for over 20 years, before being sold to the UK.
Maranello's Carrozzeria Zanasi has been working with the factory since 1964, and today, the coachbuilders share their services with Ferrari's "Classiche" Department, preparing classic Ferraris and Maseratis in the painstaking manner demanded to earn a Ferrari Certificate of Authenticity. As it turns out, for an F40 that's been basically sitting for more than two decades, that meant a $350,000 restoration.
However a quick search on the internet comes up with this on FChat - funny that they didn't think a potential buyer would have been interested in these details
In June 1989 80726 was sold new through official dealer Wolfgang Denzel in Austria to the first owner, Baron Dr. Franz Mayr-Melnhof-Saurau, of Frohnleiten, one of the wealthiest Austrians at the time.
Franz Mayr-Melnhof was a very tall man and had difficulties to sit properly in the F40. He decided to have the car sent to Michelotto in Padova, Italy, to modify the roof with two double bubbles.
Franz Mayr-Melnhof, on the way back from Padova to Austria, was passenger in his Ferrari F40 on the motorway Udine-Pontebba in Italy, Thursday night, June 3, 1993, when the car crashed near Pontebba. He was airlifted to the special University clinic for burnt people in Munich, Germany where sadly he passed away on Monday, the 14th June 1993. He was just 44 years.
Driver of the car had been his friend and assistant Count Johann Thun-Hohenstein, aged 56, who was killed in the car.
The F40 had crashed into an Armco barrier coming out of the road (like a ramp) and the car was catapulted into the air. After some somersaulting the wreck came to a stop near the entrance of a motorway service station. The car was very badly damaged and burnt heavily.
The wreck later ended up at a body shop in Maranello.
The following pix were taken in Italy in May 1997 (four years after the crash).
BoxerF50 and traxx, thanks for extra information. Traxx that's exactly the sort of car I'm trying to make sure I avoid. The problem is this type of evidence just proves it's possible to build an F40 from a start point of nothing but a VIN number and get the Ferrari Classiche. If it wasn't for the well documented past of this car who out there can inspect one and know. There will be other cars like this but without the very public evidence to be sure.
torquespeak said:
If it's an F40, then you can't really go wrong with DK. I'm sure they've seen more F40s than anyone else.
John Pogson at Italia Autosport is also highly recommended. As is Bob Houghton.
Those three I can vouch for. I've never spoken to Aldo, but always hear good things about him.
There's also a well-told story on PH somewhere about my old boss Jeff Fosker almost certainly saving someone from an F40 'fireball' incident after the individual was given bad advice from a so-called specialist. It probably goes without saying that I'd recommend Foskers too.
-Ed
Yep. My ex tanks. John Pogson at Italia Autosport is also highly recommended. As is Bob Houghton.
Those three I can vouch for. I've never spoken to Aldo, but always hear good things about him.
There's also a well-told story on PH somewhere about my old boss Jeff Fosker almost certainly saving someone from an F40 'fireball' incident after the individual was given bad advice from a so-called specialist. It probably goes without saying that I'd recommend Foskers too.
-Ed
traxx said:
However a quick search on the internet comes up with this on FChat - funny that they didn't think a potential buyer would have been interested in these details
FWIW, this description didn't exist on the internet when the car was consigned. I was aware of its history, and when I spotted the catalogue claims (and the extensive media coverage reporting on this 'practically new' F40), I decided that potential buyers needed to know the story.I posted the outline of the facts online and received this choice statement within a response from the auction house:
"You will find yourself in a serious lawsuit if you don't retract your statement fully."
Needless to say, I dropped Marcel a note to get the photos out there publicly, to swiftly prove the facts and force the auction house to take action - which, eventually, they did by withdrawing the car.
And I've still not had an apology from them for threatening me *and* being wrong at the same time. Oh well.
-Ed
torquespeak said:
FWIW, this description didn't exist on the internet when the car was consigned. I was aware of its history, and when I spotted the catalogue claims (and the extensive media coverage reporting on this 'practically new' F40), I decided that potential buyers needed to know the story.
I posted the outline of the facts online and received this choice statement within a response from the auction house:
"You will find yourself in a serious lawsuit if you don't retract your statement fully."
Needless to say, I dropped Marcel a note to get the photos out there publicly, to swiftly prove the facts and force the auction house to take action - which, eventually, they did by withdrawing the car.
And I've still not had an apology from them for threatening me *and* being wrong at the same time. Oh well.
-Ed
Which auction house, Ed? Pm me if you don’t want to make it public...I posted the outline of the facts online and received this choice statement within a response from the auction house:
"You will find yourself in a serious lawsuit if you don't retract your statement fully."
Needless to say, I dropped Marcel a note to get the photos out there publicly, to swiftly prove the facts and force the auction house to take action - which, eventually, they did by withdrawing the car.
And I've still not had an apology from them for threatening me *and* being wrong at the same time. Oh well.
-Ed
rubystone said:
Which auction house, Ed? Pm me if you don’t want to make it public...
Interestingly almost all the links have been deleted but if you search Ferrari F40 80726 - there is a roadandtrack magazine link The ex- David Gilmour car was also funny because iirc it was described as totally original early car with Lexan windows
Yet they used this delivery photo which clearly shows the car didn't have Lexan windows
torquespeak said:
FWIW, this description didn't exist on the internet when the car was consigned. I was aware of its history, and when I spotted the catalogue claims (and the extensive media coverage reporting on this 'practically new' F40), I decided that potential buyers needed to know the story.
You did well then and tbh the auction house should thank you because otherwise they would just have ended up in a long court case and have lostbtw anyone know what happened to the F50 that the auction house was looking after when that kid was tragically killed?
traxx said:
...
The ex- David Gilmour car was also funny because iirc it was described as totally original early car with Lexan windows
Yet they used this delivery photo which clearly shows the car didn't have Lexan windows...
To be fair the auction listing doesn't seem to explicitly state that (http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24120/lot/264/?category=list&length=100&page=3), does say the doors were replaced and is a bit ambiguous about whether the two F40s in the picture are Mason and Gilmour's actual cars anyway. Nick Mason's car does not have sliding windows now (and I'm not sure it ever did) whilst the car he is next to in that picture clearly does. I'm sure you're right that the Gilmour car did not originally have Lexan windows.The ex- David Gilmour car was also funny because iirc it was described as totally original early car with Lexan windows
Yet they used this delivery photo which clearly shows the car didn't have Lexan windows...
Jonathan
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