First Ferrari, 308GTB grp4 project

[codieskid]

Hi all

I currently own a Jaguar E-type Series 1 FHC but am looking to move out of that car and into something a bit different. I've always loved the 308GTB's and the F355's and so am looking at the possibility of buying a 308 as my first Ferrari. I've only just started researching cars so can any of you point me in the direction of a good buyers guide or provide advice of what to look for when buying a 308? So far I've established I want a UK or Euro spec dry sumped car with a good service history, oh and it has to be red .

Now this is the bit that owners might not like but I am looking to turn the car into a grp4 inspired fast road car. So that means fitting the wider Mäkelä Auto-Tuning style arches, GRP decklid, coffin spoke wheels etc. I know it's not the sort of project many owners would consider but it's a project that really appeals to me and I know a few owners have gone down this route before.

So to get the ball rolling I need to find a suitable candidate car. Can I ask what budget I would need for either a UK or Euro car in good condition and where are the places to look for 308's for sale?

Thanks

Trev

[johnnyreggae]

http://www.walkersport.co.uk/308-328-buying-guide....

There's also a broader background at the top of ferrarichat's 308 section

Ads here or FOC site - maybe https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/list/20/308/

There's a guy at GTO Engineering who does Grp 4 308 as a hobby (!) - might be worth a chat

Edited by johnnyreggae on Thursday 30th November 09:38

[RacerMDR]

i'm not sure how sheddy you want to start with - but there has been a black 'shed' of a 355 hanging around on PH for ages. IT's very rough, and over priced but it'll come up top of the cheap list in a search.

Think it was an ex race car.

[jtremlett]

I struggle to see why you want to start from a red car in good condition. Surely if you're going to be changing several parts of the body anyway it would need painting so it doesn't really matter what colour you start with? Albeit that most cars will be red anyway. Plus, if you're replacing panels then better to start with a cheaper car that is good mechanically but a bit of rust etc. won't matter that much if you're effectively throwing bits away. Bear in mind what you are suggesting is likely to both cost money and reduce the value and resale-ability of the car (which may or may not be significant to you).

Jonathan

[codieskid]

jtremlett said:

I struggle to see why you want to start from a red car in good condition. Surely if you're going to be changing several parts of the body anyway it would need painting so it doesn't really matter what colour you start with? Albeit that most cars will be red anyway. Plus, if you're replacing panels then better to start with a cheaper car that is good mechanically but a bit of rust etc. won't matter that much if you're effectively throwing bits away. Bear in mind what you are suggesting is likely to both cost money and reduce the value and resale-ability of the car (which may or may not be significant to you).

Jonathan

True as long as the frame etc isn't rusty then I'd happily consider a car that has a few rusty panels. Also I agree that the car doesn't have to be red as will likely have a respray after the new panels go on but starting with a red car might save having to strip the whole shell to have it painted correctly inside and out to a new colour. Also come resale time it's nice to have the car painted in the original factory colour.

[Ranger 6]

Why not talk to those who already have a rally car?



Taken from this thread: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

This event: http://www.clitheroedmc.co.uk/HallTrophy.htm

[codieskid]

johnnyreggae said:

http://www.walkersport.co.uk/308-328-buying-guide....

There's also a broader background at the top of ferrarichat's 308 section

Ads here or FOC site - maybe https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/list/20/308/

There's a guy at GTO Engineering who does Grp 4 308 as a hobby (!) - might be worth a chat

Edited by johnnyreggae on Thursday 30th November 09:38

Thanks, really useful.

[torquespeak]

codieskid] with a good service history [... said:

Can I ask what budget I would need for either a UK or Euro car in good condition...

Like Jonathan, I'm not sure why you want to pay a premium for a car with good service history, only to then completely change the car (and reduce its like-for-like value). If you're doing a proper job, you'll be replacing or refreshing most of the things that would be impacted by service history anyway.

If you're looking to do a project like this, I'd personally recommend going for the cheapest (solid / straight) car that you can, and with every concession you're willing to make, the budget required will shrink.

-Ed

[codieskid]

torquespeak said:

Like Jonathan, I'm not sure why you want to pay a premium for a car with good service history, only to then completely change the car (and reduce its like-for-like value). If you're doing a proper job, you'll be replacing or refreshing most of the things that would be impacted by service history anyway.

If you're looking to do a project like this, I'd personally recommend going for the cheapest (solid / straight) car that you can, and with every concession you're willing to make, the budget required will shrink.

-Ed

Thanks Ed, sensible advice. I guess I've always been told to buy the best condition car I can but I can totally see your point about buying the cheapest car possible. Ideally I was hoping to just add the arches, deck lid, suspension, exhaust system, wheels to the car and lightly modify the interior as I wanted to avoid the idea of stripping down a car completely and rebuilding it as the costs would be quite extensive I would think.

Out of interest what you would estimate a GTB at the bottom end of the market might cost? Also is it worth considering LHD cars and are these significantly cheaper?

Thanks

Trev

[PAUL500]

There is a red shell for sale on ebay at the moment, already bare so the perfect basis to turn into the rally car spec then build it up from parts collected on ebay as well.

Once you put a spanner on a standard car, its life upto then goes out the window along with any value associated with that old life so a waste using a nice donor anyway.

[torquespeak]

codieskid said:

Thanks Ed, sensible advice. I guess I've always been told to buy the best condition car I can but I can totally see your point about buying the cheapest car possible. Ideally I was hoping to just add the arches, deck lid, suspension, exhaust system, wheels to the car and lightly modify the interior as I wanted to avoid the idea of stripping down a car completely and rebuilding it as the costs would be quite extensive I would think.

Out of interest what you would estimate a GTB at the bottom end of the market might cost? Also is it worth considering LHD cars and are these significantly cheaper?

Thanks

Trev

Agree with Paul here (on his latter point). Once you start modifying it, the history/condition up to that point almost becomes moot. The 'buy the best you can afford' guidance applies if you're buying to keep original and maintain - not if you're going to change it all.

I'm aware the answer to this might be as simple as "Because I want to", but what's the driver behind turning it into a Grp4 style road car?

My broad point would be that you've picked one of the worst brands to modify a model from, because it's continually shifting to a more discerning set of buyers, almost all of whom are being told "originality, originality, originality" by the world's dealers.

If you want to experience a great value Ferrari road car, my personal opinion would be to buy a decent UK RHD 308 GTB on carbs, spend what's needed to maintain it, and enjoy a relatively low-cost ownership (especially factoring into account the likely rising value).

FWIW, I'm a huge fan of the 308 GT4. I'd argue it drives easily as well - some would argue better - than a GTB, given the longer wheelbase. And, whereas you'll probably need to spend £80k+ on a GTB, a good GT4 can still be had for £50k+. I've seen more expensive Nissans.

-Ed

[codieskid]

It's really is because I want to. I've always been a massive fan of 60's and 70's rally cars and have been looking at something of this ilk to replace the E-type once it goes. I totally understand the importance of originality which is how I bought my E-type as it's an original UK, RHD drive with full history back from 1971, heritage certificate etc etc.

I would therefore love to buy a 308 with the same history and documentation that I have with my Jag as I want what all buyers want, a nice original car. However what I want to do with the car is different from many owners. What I want to try and establish at this point is how reversible the Grp 4 bodywork would be should I wish to then put the car back to the original condition. The main area of concern is the arches as I am not sure if the originals need to be cut etc to fit and how they also effect the sills. The engine cover will be replaced and even things like the doors can be replaced with fibreglass versions so putting these items back to stock is relatively straight forward, as is changing the brakes, suspension and wheels.

So my ideal car is something I can buy and have fun with but can also be put back to original factory condition should I ever wish to sell it.

Thoughts? Does anyone know how the grp4 arches are fitted?



Trev

[codieskid]

Looking at this diagram and panels that MAT fit on their Michelotto replicas it looks like I could replace the whole panel without having to damage/modify the originals



Here is a couple of pictures showing MAT fitting a grp4 panel

[Elderly]

This was unsold yesterday with a low estimate of £58k.

https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2017-1...

[PAUL500]

There is no way you could realistically revert it back to standard once you have converted it without anyone knowing what was done, the whole point of originality is that its only original once!

Buy the US spec shell on ebay, get it bead blasted and build it up just like the one in your pics then enjoy it :-)

I am doing something similar with a 355, it will never be a 355 again but hopefully what it does become will be far far better.

[The Surveyor]

Sounds like a great idea, but if it was me I'd be looking for a 308GTB to keep nicely original and also build a Stratos replica to get your 1970's rally car fix:- www.listerbell.com

[codieskid]

I don't think buying a shell and then building a car from parts would make any financial sense. The list of parts alone would outweigh the cost of buying a complete roadworthy car. That shell has nothing, it would need roof, doors, wiring loom, all interior panels, seats, gauges etc, the list would be endless and bloody expensive.

I agree that people would know if the work had be reversed if I decided to put remove the grp4 parts and put it back to factory condition but how many 70's cars have had body repair work, new sills, rust removal etc, windscreen replacement due to stone chips etc. If you are classing a car that has had some any form of modiifcation/repair/replacement parts as non original then I dare say 95% of classic Ferraris are not original.

The work I am planning on doing would be to remove the bonded arches from the rear panels and then repaint, it's still the original panels underneath. The other option is to completely remove the original panels and then replace them with fibreglass parts and put the original parts into storage.

Edited by codieskid on Friday 8th December 11:02

[codieskid]

The Surveyor said:

Sounds like a great idea, but if it was me I'd be looking for a 308GTB to keep nicely original and also build a Stratos replica to get your 1970's rally car fix:- www.listerbell.com

Have been looking at Listerbell and Hawk cars for a while. I nearly bought a Hawk some years ago as the Stratos is my favourite rally car but they are £40k for a very good replica that has Alfa running gear. I'd rather find a tatty 308 and turn it into a nice grp 4 style car that has the right type of engine. Also the Stratos replica will most likely always only be worth what it costs to make one where the Ferrari is more likely to appreciate in value even with the grp4 parts on it.

[PAUL500]

What does not make financial sense is buying a decent example, spending a lot of money converting it, then spending more money again converting it back, to end up with a restored, rather than original car that is then as a result less desirable so worth less than you paid for it in the first place!

Each to their own I guess but if you are just adding a bodykit and nothing more then it will not be a grp4 car anyway so what is the point?

When I costed my project it made sense to start with a bare shell, as I only then needed to source and purchase the mechanical parts, had I bought a complete car I would have had to remove and been stuck with a mountain of 355 bits I did not need which would take forever to sell.

There is very little 308 left in those grp 4 reps.

Anyway good luck with the idea.

[Bacchus]

Trevor, have a look at these guys : http://www.formulagt.de/showroom/parts

a few years ago I had the same idea, but in the end I bought my dream 355GTB