Forghieri speaks on the Glickenhaus car
Discussion
Because I questioned whether Ferrari would have used the method found on the Glickenhaus/Piper 0003 chassis to deal with the issue of fitting the P4 engine to a P3 chassis, I wrote to Ing. Mauro Forghieri, who joined Ferrari in January, 1960 having just graduated at the University of Bologna in Mechanical Engineering and was the Chief Technical Director at Ferrari's Race Department from October, 1961 to 1984. As well as all the Formula 1 cars and other Prototypes from this period, he designed the 330 P3, 412P, 330 P3/4 (0846) and 330 P4. I included photos from Jim Glickenhaus's 0846 pdf document and asked whether or not the engine mountings were his work. Ing. Forghieri was kind enough to look over the photos and respond. I have his permission in writing to post his information, which has been independently authenticated on another web site, as follows:
"Dear Mr.Robertson
I will say what I remember of so old days.In 1966 we design the 330 P3-0846. This car take part at the 12 h of Sebring number 27 drivers Parkes Bondurant. I like to make clear that P3 and P4 are from aerodinamic point of view very close.The draft was done by the technical bureau of Ferrari racing DPT. MR Drogo had nothing to do with the cars of Ferrari racing departement. The 330 P3 spyder was modified at the end of 1966 in a new P4 with the new 3 valve engine,curved intakes with injection,new Ferrari gearbox, minor modifications to the chassis with 2400 wheelbase.The modest wheelbase was thanks to the good aereodinamic stability developed at the aereodinamic wind tunnel in Stutgart.
This prototipe was the test car for private test(first in Ferrari History) in Daytona December 1966. The 0846.P4 spyder was used in the following races 1967:
Daytona 24 h winner Amon-Bandini n.23
Targa Florio Vaccarella -Scarfiotti
Le Mans 67 Amon-Vaccarella
Amon was hit by a flying wheel and the car caught fire and was badly damaged. The car was discarted by Ferrari and the chassis was destroyed. The pictures,sended to me,show some solutions to accept the 330 P4 engine. The solutions tell me that probably another P3 chassis was used to have a new 0846 P4. Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount. Your chassis is a P3 arranged by some body to accept the P4 engine and the correct wheelbase 2400.
I hope to have been of some help.
Kind regards
Mauro Forghieri"
From this response, we have learned that:
1. According to Mauro Forghieri, chassis 0846 was discarded to the Ferrari scrap yard after Le Mans '67.
2. Mauro Forghieri did not engineer the engine mount modifications seen on the Glickenhaus chassis.
3. According to Mauro Forghieri, Ferrari never would have accepted such modifications.
4. According to Mauro Forghieri, the Glickenhaus chassis is not the original 0846.
5. According to Mauro Forghieri, the Glickenhaus chassis is probably another P3 chassis, modified to accept a P4 engine.
Of course, #5 creates another question: Which one and why? However, in corresponding with Ing. Forghieri I did not mention that the Glickenhaus chassis was a replica originally commissioned by David Piper. He only has photographs of the engine mountings so it is understandable why he concluded that it is probably another P3 chassis and not that of a replica of a P3/P4 that the chassis actually is.
"Dear Mr.Robertson
I will say what I remember of so old days.In 1966 we design the 330 P3-0846. This car take part at the 12 h of Sebring number 27 drivers Parkes Bondurant. I like to make clear that P3 and P4 are from aerodinamic point of view very close.The draft was done by the technical bureau of Ferrari racing DPT. MR Drogo had nothing to do with the cars of Ferrari racing departement. The 330 P3 spyder was modified at the end of 1966 in a new P4 with the new 3 valve engine,curved intakes with injection,new Ferrari gearbox, minor modifications to the chassis with 2400 wheelbase.The modest wheelbase was thanks to the good aereodinamic stability developed at the aereodinamic wind tunnel in Stutgart.
This prototipe was the test car for private test(first in Ferrari History) in Daytona December 1966. The 0846.P4 spyder was used in the following races 1967:
Daytona 24 h winner Amon-Bandini n.23
Targa Florio Vaccarella -Scarfiotti
Le Mans 67 Amon-Vaccarella
Amon was hit by a flying wheel and the car caught fire and was badly damaged. The car was discarted by Ferrari and the chassis was destroyed. The pictures,sended to me,show some solutions to accept the 330 P4 engine. The solutions tell me that probably another P3 chassis was used to have a new 0846 P4. Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount. Your chassis is a P3 arranged by some body to accept the P4 engine and the correct wheelbase 2400.
I hope to have been of some help.
Kind regards
Mauro Forghieri"
From this response, we have learned that:
1. According to Mauro Forghieri, chassis 0846 was discarded to the Ferrari scrap yard after Le Mans '67.
2. Mauro Forghieri did not engineer the engine mount modifications seen on the Glickenhaus chassis.
3. According to Mauro Forghieri, Ferrari never would have accepted such modifications.
4. According to Mauro Forghieri, the Glickenhaus chassis is not the original 0846.
5. According to Mauro Forghieri, the Glickenhaus chassis is probably another P3 chassis, modified to accept a P4 engine.
Of course, #5 creates another question: Which one and why? However, in corresponding with Ing. Forghieri I did not mention that the Glickenhaus chassis was a replica originally commissioned by David Piper. He only has photographs of the engine mountings so it is understandable why he concluded that it is probably another P3 chassis and not that of a replica of a P3/P4 that the chassis actually is.
Edited by Elex on Friday 15th May 06:10
sa_20v said:
Last week we saw Balboni inspecting AndrewD's new purchase and now Forghieri is discussing the P4 with another PH'er - wow! 
OP - any chance you can post up the pictures discussed in your letter?
Elex can confirm but there's a hugely informative document online about the Glickenhaus car here, including loads of photos:OP - any chance you can post up the pictures discussed in your letter?
http://p45c.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/project...
BelfastBoy said:
Elex can confirm but there's a hugely informative document online about the Glickenhaus car here, including loads of photos:
http://p45c.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/project...
Ah cheers for that - that'll make the next coffee break a good one!http://p45c.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/project...
![](http://thumbsnap.com/sc/5f0QgNb7.png[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/DGZKd440" Target="_blank">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/DGZKd440.png[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/cSeMoxEl" Target="_blank">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/cSeMoxEl.png)
BelfastBoy said:
Elex can confirm but there's a hugely informative document online about the Glickenhaus car here, including loads of photos:
http://p45c.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/project...
Much of the information contained in the Glickenhaus 0846 document has been disproved. I'm afraid it's full of misquotation, misinformation and misinterpretation. http://p45c.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/project...
Along with a minor weld on the RHS and a slightly different diameter tube on the LHS, the engine mountings are the main feature that Mr Glickenhaus claimed identified his chassis as the original 0846. Unfortunately Ferrari would never have used the method used on the Glickenhaus chassis to mount the P4 engine to a P3 chassis as its rigidity is compromised by the use of bolt on adaptors. The genuine 0846 had new and geometrically correct tubing at the rear of the chassis to accept the different positioning of the engine mountings of the P4 engine. The engine mountings would have been placed at the central point of the meeting of the multiple tubes of the chassis for maximum torsional rigidity, NOT OFFSET by the use of bolt on adaptors as they are on the Glickenhaus chassis, where the rigidity is compromised.
The below statement from Ing. Forghieri, who actually designed and oversaw the build of P3/4 0846, is absolute proof that the Glickenhaus/Piper #0003 chassis is NOT the original 0846 that won Daytona in 1967.
"The pictures,sended to me,show some solutions to accept the 330 P4 engine. The solutions tell me that probably another P3 chassis was used to have a new 0846 P4. Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount."
Although it is a fabulous recreation, as far as I and many other informed people are concerned, this is the final nail in the coffin to the claim that Glickenhaus/Piper chassis #0003 is Ferrari #0846.
Edited by Elex on Friday 20th June 02:12
Elex said:
Much of the information contained in the Glickenhaus 0846 document has been disproved. I'm afraid it's full of misquotation, misinformation and misinterpretation.
Along with a minor weld on the RHS and a slightly different diameter tube on the LHS, the engine mountings are the main feature that Mr Glickenhaus claimed identified his chassis as the original 0846. Unfortunately Ferrari would never have used the method used on the Glickenhaus chassis to mount the P4 engine to a P3 chassis as its rigidity is compromised by the use of bolt on adaptors. The genuine 0846 had new and geometrically correct tubing at the rear of the chassis to accept the different positioning of the engine mountings of the P4 engine. The engine mountings would have been placed at the central point of the meeting of the multiple tubes of the chassis for maximum torsional rigidity, NOT OFFSET by the use of bolt on adaptors as they are on the Glickenhaus chassis, where the rigidity is compromised.
The below statement from Ing. Forghieri, who actually designed and oversaw the build of P3/4 0846, is absolute proof that the Glickenhaus/Piper #0003 chassis is NOT the original 0846 that won Daytona in 1967.
"The pictures,sended to me,show some solutions to accept the 330 P4 engine. The solutions tell me that probably another P3 chassis was used to have a new 0846 P4. Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount."
Although it is a fabulous recreation, as far as I and many other informed people are concerned, this is the final nail in the coffin to the claim that Glickenhaus/Piper chassis #0003 is Ferrari #0846.
Agreed on the information in the Glickenhaus document, but the photos in it are automotive porn in terms of closeup details of classic vehicles! Along with a minor weld on the RHS and a slightly different diameter tube on the LHS, the engine mountings are the main feature that Mr Glickenhaus claimed identified his chassis as the original 0846. Unfortunately Ferrari would never have used the method used on the Glickenhaus chassis to mount the P4 engine to a P3 chassis as its rigidity is compromised by the use of bolt on adaptors. The genuine 0846 had new and geometrically correct tubing at the rear of the chassis to accept the different positioning of the engine mountings of the P4 engine. The engine mountings would have been placed at the central point of the meeting of the multiple tubes of the chassis for maximum torsional rigidity, NOT OFFSET by the use of bolt on adaptors as they are on the Glickenhaus chassis, where the rigidity is compromised.
The below statement from Ing. Forghieri, who actually designed and oversaw the build of P3/4 0846, is absolute proof that the Glickenhaus/Piper #0003 chassis is NOT the original 0846 that won Daytona in 1967.
"The pictures,sended to me,show some solutions to accept the 330 P4 engine. The solutions tell me that probably another P3 chassis was used to have a new 0846 P4. Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount."
Although it is a fabulous recreation, as far as I and many other informed people are concerned, this is the final nail in the coffin to the claim that Glickenhaus/Piper chassis #0003 is Ferrari #0846.
Edited by Elex on Friday 20th June 02:12
Random question then - let's assume that the Glickenhaus car isn't 0846. Is it the world's most spectacular replica, given the amount of authentic period parts it does have, and therefore still of significant historical and financial value anyway?
BelfastBoy said:
Agreed on the information in the Glickenhaus document, but the photos in it are automotive porn in terms of closeup details of classic vehicles!
Random question then - let's assume that the Glickenhaus car isn't 0846. Is it the world's most spectacular replica, given the amount of authentic period parts it does have, and therefore still of significant historical and financial value anyway?
There was a lot of discussion over whether another P4 which was returned from Can Am to either Spyder or Coupe. Lots of people argued it was a P4, while others said it was a recreation. That would have sold for a considerable number of million. Random question then - let's assume that the Glickenhaus car isn't 0846. Is it the world's most spectacular replica, given the amount of authentic period parts it does have, and therefore still of significant historical and financial value anyway?
Had to chuckle when I saw this - thanks for sharing OP. On the basis that the owner of the car based on DP chassis components with bold claims as to it's identity - was particularly vociferous in his criticism of DP's work on the rebody of 0858 and implied that DP was unaware of what he had sold him relating to the provenance of the components which formed the basis of his own car - maybe Pipes "did" know what he sold him in the first place... - what goes around comes around eh!
quick edit to say - that whatever the identity/questions on provenance the car has - I would love to own and drive it - and I doubt even after the costly and time consuming build process owes a fraction of what 0858 is valued at today - let alone 0856 - which I would imagine will almost definitely being handed down to Lance in the course of time
quick edit to say - that whatever the identity/questions on provenance the car has - I would love to own and drive it - and I doubt even after the costly and time consuming build process owes a fraction of what 0858 is valued at today - let alone 0856 - which I would imagine will almost definitely being handed down to Lance in the course of time
Edited by rossb on Friday 20th June 13:29
camshafted said:
There was a lot of discussion over whether another P4 which was returned from Can Am to either Spyder or Coupe. Lots of people argued it was a P4, while others said it was a recreation. That would have sold for a considerable number of million.
Is that the one that sold not so long ago through Talacrest?http://www.talacrest.com/ferrari330p4/
I don't see how anyone could call that a recreation! Don't know how much it sold for, but I'm guessing at least high seven figures, maybe even eight?
BelfastBoy said:
Is that the one that sold not so long ago through Talacrest?
http://www.talacrest.com/ferrari330p4/
I don't see how anyone could call that a recreation! Don't know how much it sold for, but I'm guessing at least high seven figures, maybe even eight?
Mr Glickenhaus was particularly vocal about the Talacrest model on Ferrari Chat. http://www.talacrest.com/ferrari330p4/
I don't see how anyone could call that a recreation! Don't know how much it sold for, but I'm guessing at least high seven figures, maybe even eight?
If you have a spare week or so, this is certainly worth a read: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365...
camshafted said:
Mr Glickenhaus was particularly vocal about the Talacrest model on Ferrari Chat.
If you have a spare week or so, this is certainly worth a read: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365...
Nice, thanks for the link. I'm sure you know about it already, but there's an even longer thread specifically about Glickenhaus's own car - as is typical with FChat discussions, passions turn into vitriol, the original subject matter is often forgotten about entirely, and (as of yesterday) I think it's up to 428 pages so far!If you have a spare week or so, this is certainly worth a read: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365...
BelfastBoy said:
Nice, thanks for the link. I'm sure you know about it already, but there's an even longer thread specifically about Glickenhaus's own car - as is typical with FChat discussions, passions turn into vitriol, the original subject matter is often forgotten about entirely, and (as of yesterday) I think it's up to 428 pages so far!
Wow, thanks - 428 pages is pretty epic! I suppose it's not surprising when you're talking about very important Ferraris. They're no longer wealthy boys' toys and cars of historical importance. They're serious commodities worth millions of pounds! Could someone kindly summarise the story ....
I am assuming here that someone has bought / sold a historic ferrari of considerable value that has turned out not to be an original / race winning car.
what would the financial implications be on this then ? ..... considerable no ?
Not my area at all but interesting none the less.
I am assuming here that someone has bought / sold a historic ferrari of considerable value that has turned out not to be an original / race winning car.
what would the financial implications be on this then ? ..... considerable no ?
Not my area at all but interesting none the less.
camshafted said:
Wow, thanks - 428 pages is pretty epic! I suppose it's not surprising when you're talking about very important Ferraris. They're no longer wealthy boys' toys and cars of historical importance. They're serious commodities worth millions of pounds!
Here's the specific FCHat thread about the Glickenhaus '0846' vehicle - 427 pages long so not for the faint hearted:https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365...
Mr G himself has plenty to say, as 'Napolis'.
Even after Ing. Forghieri's email regarding the engine mountings of Glickenhaus/Piper #0003 chassis proving it is not the original 0846 that won Daytona, here is Mr Glickenhaus himself still claiming it is. He has some truly fabulous genuine cars including one of my all time favourites, Ferrari 412P 0854. Why and how he continues to claim this replica chassis is the original 0846 is just beyond me.
See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6qpq7hyQlY&fe...
See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6qpq7hyQlY&fe...
Edited by Elex on Friday 27th June 00:05
Chris wasn't hit by a flying wheel.
Ferrari in writing has confirmed in writing several times to several different people that 0846's chassis was not destroyed but was scrapped.
Piper has stated under penalty of law that "003" chassis was built to P4 blueprints given to him by Enzo Ferrari. It's good to see that MF is still able to recognize that it's not.
Talk to one of the guys who recently worked with MF regarding his current capabilities and memory on the 815 which he also designed many years ago. The word he used to me was "fiasco".
9/11 happened
Lady Gaga does not have a penis.
Ferrari has continuously published in their sole descression on a website copyrighted solely by them for over 12 years that I have owned 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 chassis 0846 since July 2000.
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