No more NA V12 Berlinettas?

[DeejRC]

So then chaps, what do we make of the Fchat rumours around the F167 being a V12hybrid and only the FUV getting an NA V12?

For myself, a smaller capacity V12 + hybrid is exactly what I like the idea of. More efficient and hopefully better packaging. I also like the idea that it may well keep the price of my F12 rather buoyant

[Soleith]

I'd love it if they made another V12 without any hybrid parts, either a smaller engine with a turbo or (highly unlikely imo) another NA V12 non-limited edition. Sales guy I deal with at HRO suggests there will be no new non-limited V12 non-SUV's although how much of that is him trying to flog me a 296 I'm unsure.

[browngt3]

Both Ferrari and Lambo NEED to keep making nasp V12s. No turbos, no hybrids, no electric, no nonsense!

[ANOpax]

The backlash against net zero suggests that the populace is finally waking up to the fact that climate modelling is just as unreliable as covid modelling.
Unfortunately, this realisation has come too late for Europe's automakers who have to abide by rules dreamt up by politiians and bureaucrats who are in thrall to the precautionary principle

[Taffy66]

I've guessed this would happen since new management took over at Ferrari. Real shame as NA V12s are and have always been Ferrari's speciality. Everybody who has a V12 should hang on to them IMO. I can't see them depreciating any further on this bombshell however which models will rise in value remains to be seen.
In Italy and US at least, 812 values have increased rapidly recently and are back up to new list. Makes no odds to me as I have no intention of ever selling mine.

[Soleith]

ANOpax said:

The backlash against net zero suggests that the populace is finally waking up to the fact that climate modelling is just as unreliable as covid modelling.
Unfortunately, this realisation has come too late for Europe's automakers who have to abide by rules dreamt up by politiians and bureaucrats who are in thrall to the precautionary principle

Unfortunately it's not as simple as that. ESG investing is driving the issue globally now and don't think the direction of travel will change, American and Asia-Pac manufacturers are all moving in this direction too.

[MDL111]

always suspected the next gen would be a V12 hybrid, which I actually would not mind - much better than the alternatives of either no more V12 or V12 turbo. It is just a shame that they axed the car I would have loved to buy with it (a GTC4 Lusso successor).

[ANOpax]

Soleith said:

Unfortunately it's not as simple as that. ESG investing is driving the issue globally now and don't think the direction of travel will change, American and Asia-Pac manufacturers are all moving in this direction too.

ESG investing is being driven by a vocal minority and EU legislation. Peak ESG was in 1Q21 if share prices are anything to go by. Common sense is starting to come to the fore when you see recent comments by high profile investors such as Terry Smith on Unilever's overly woke strategy.

Edited by ANOpax on Tuesday 18th January 13:22

[Soleith]

ANOpax said:

ESG investing is being driven by a vocal minority and EU legislation. Peak ESG was in 1Q21 if share prices are anything to go by. Common sense is starting to come to the fore when you see recent comments by high profile investors such as Terry Smith on Unilever's overly woke strategy.

Edited by ANOpax on Tuesday 18th January 13:22

I mean, when NBIM disagrees with you, it's probably a good idea to listen...

ESG is just getting started. Not that I necessarily agree with it in all respects, but these things take time. Trillions in assets don't reposition overnight. Overly woke is problematic and companies are still finding their way but bringing it back to cars, the direction of travel is still clear. Major manufacturers in most global regions are going smaller ICE, hybrid and EV. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[blueSL]

I think it was Michael Leiters, CTO, who said they would continue with a N/A V12 for as long as possible. Since then, Benedetto Vigna has arrived as CEO from STMicroelectronics and has been there long enough now to understand what's what. Leiters was responsible for the SF90 and 296 and the SF90 has by all accounts been something of a problem child and I suppose it's not surprising he has now left the company. New broom and all that.

Given Vigna's background, I'd expect an increased focus on hybrids and pure electric which makes you wonder what life there is left for the venerable N/A V12 and whether it's worth the investment to produce a hybridised smaller version, especially with Euro 7 looming. Their V6 and V8 hybrids, if they can be sorted, provide them with all the power they need and a small hybrid V12 - which will naturally not be as efficient as a V8 or V6 - will be more nostalgia trip than anything.

It might just be that Vigna think's Ferrari's to-do list is pretty full with the Purosangue and pure electric whatever coming up. Trouble is, the V6 hybrid produces more power than the N/A V12 so it's not as if a Purosangue with a N/A V12 could be positioned as a range topper. More logical is to have two versions of the Purosangue, V6 and V8 hybrid with the replacement for the 812 being a mid-front engined Berlinetta using the hybrid V8 from the SF90.

I shall certainly hang on to my 812 GTS when it arrives...

[MDL111]

blueSL said:

I think it was Michael Leiters, CTO, who said they would continue with a N/A V12 for as long as possible. Since then, Benedetto Vigna has arrived as CEO from STMicroelectronics and has been there long enough now to understand what's what. Leiters was responsible for the SF90 and 296 and the SF90 has by all accounts been something of a problem child and I suppose it's not surprising he has now left the company. New broom and all that.

Given Vigna's background, I'd expect an increased focus on hybrids and pure electric which makes you wonder what life there is left for the venerable N/A V12 and whether it's worth the investment to produce a hybridised smaller version, especially with Euro 7 looming. Their V6 and V8 hybrids, if they can be sorted, provide them with all the power they need and a small hybrid V12 - which will naturally not be as efficient as a V8 or V6 - will be more nostalgia trip than anything.

It might just be that Vigna think's Ferrari's to-do list is pretty full with the Purosangue and pure electric whatever coming up. Trouble is, the V6 hybrid produces more power than the N/A V12 so it's not as if a Purosangue with a N/A V12 could be positioned as a range topper. More logical is to have two versions of the Purosangue, V6 and V8 hybrid with the replacement for the 812 being a mid-front engined Berlinetta using the hybrid V8 from the SF90.

I shall certainly hang on to my 812 GTS when it arrives...

I always assumed they would continue to produce the updated V12 with a hybrid element for some cars and just increase price further, so the overall numbers go down while keeping the same profit contribution. After all they have an older version of that engine already from the LaFerrari.
Of course I might be very wrong - it will be a sad day when/if V12 engine production is shut down.

[Bo_apex]

ANOpax said:

The backlash against net zero suggests that the populace is finally waking up to the fact that climate modelling is just as unreliable as covid modelling.
Unfortunately, this realisation has come too late for Europe's automakers who have to abide by rules dreamt up by politiians and bureaucrats who are in thrall to the precautionary principle

You're onto something

[garystoybox]

Bo_apex said:

You're onto something

This is a woman who has been pretty much ostracised by her peers, was a poster girl for Trump and has admitted that she is partly funded by the US oil companies (and I’m not talking about Greta ).
No rewinding on the legislation now; let’s just keep enjoying what we’ve already got, for hopefully many years to come.

[ANOpax]

Bo_apex said:

You're onto something

This is a girl who has been disowned by her peers, is a poster child for Al Gore and is funded by eco-activists (and I'm ot talking about Dr Curry ).

Why not rewind the legislation if it has been built on bad modelling? That way we, and generations to come, can enjoy what we have.

Edited by ANOpax on Thursday 20th January 09:13

[Bo_apex]

ANOpax said:

Bo_apex said:

You're onto something

This is a girl who has been disowned by her peers, is a poster child for Al Gore and is funded by eco-activists (and I'm ot talking about Dr Curry ).

Why not rewind the legislation if it has been built on bad modelling? That way we, and generations to come, can enjoy what we have.

Edited by ANOpax on Thursday 20th January 09:13

I'm an advocate of cleaner air and there is bad science at the centre of this angry mob.

Politicians change, the EU is fragmenting and lobbyists with agendas find other things to do with their time.
Anything is possible and the smartest companies will find ways to satisfy market demand.

[blueSL]

Saw an interesting comment that cars emit more particulates from their tyres and brakes these days than their engines.

[ANOpax]

Less than 6% of global CO2 emission comes from private cars so the aggressive regulation of the automobile is the wrong place to start if saving the planet is the EU’s genuine objective. If government and society are really serious about CO2 emissions then we would be having a grown up discussion about building construction standards and population control instead of virtue signalling with EV legislation and ownership.

Crucially, EVs don't eliminate CO2, they merely move the location at which the CO2 is produced, and in some places, need to be driven over 78,000miles before emitting less CO2 than a petrol car according to an analysis reported by
Reuters

[Bo_apex]

blueSL said:

Saw an interesting comment that cars emit more particulates from their tyres and brakes these days than their engines.

Given the huge size of contemporary brakes and tyres that would not surprise me.
Then factor the weight of contemporary cars ripping up the tarmac more quickly etc.

EV's are among the biggest and heaviest and clocking up the most miles as daily driver utilities.

Something worth consideration for manufacturers