Where's the Ferrari value?
Discussion
Ferrari fans,
Car prices are pretty crazy right now, so where is the ultimate in Ferrari value do you think?
My call is the 599, £80k for this car seems like crazy value.
People say they are too big and heavy and that the F12 is a better size, but there really isn't that much in it re dimensions and weight...?
599. 4665 x 1962. 1750-ish kg
F12 4618 x 1943. 1650 ish kg
205mph for £80k...relatively modern, looks great just unloved.
Am I wrong?
Car prices are pretty crazy right now, so where is the ultimate in Ferrari value do you think?
My call is the 599, £80k for this car seems like crazy value.
People say they are too big and heavy and that the F12 is a better size, but there really isn't that much in it re dimensions and weight...?
599. 4665 x 1962. 1750-ish kg
F12 4618 x 1943. 1650 ish kg
205mph for £80k...relatively modern, looks great just unloved.
Am I wrong?
Edited by DjSki on Friday 27th August 10:27
The 599 in theory is great value.
Prices have risen 10k or so for good ones, but it is very noticeable that the Indie cars are sticking about. The Ferrari dealership cars are selling. Spring and before you could get a £90k car at a Dealer. No chance now, it’s £100k+.
They also come with Bills. Capital B.
Then you make the mistake of driving a 599 and then an F12. Don’t do that. Just don’t. It will cost you an extra 50-70k…just take my word for it, I’ve spent the last yr going down this path.
Prices have risen 10k or so for good ones, but it is very noticeable that the Indie cars are sticking about. The Ferrari dealership cars are selling. Spring and before you could get a £90k car at a Dealer. No chance now, it’s £100k+.
They also come with Bills. Capital B.
Then you make the mistake of driving a 599 and then an F12. Don’t do that. Just don’t. It will cost you an extra 50-70k…just take my word for it, I’ve spent the last yr going down this path.
So where do people think prices are going with the V12's now we are in September? Particularly the 456, 550M, 599 and FF;
Have they bottomed out yet or do you think they are on the up? I'm looking to buy in late November/December and would like to think this is a keeper now I have storage.
So many decisions and I never envisaged being spoilt for choice for V12 Ferrari's. General market conditions (impending housing market crash?!/vat rises, more taxation etc.. someone is going to have to pay for Covid etc.. It is indeed a strange time to be looking at Ferrari's but I'm in as everything else fits in with my current finances.
Have they bottomed out yet or do you think they are on the up? I'm looking to buy in late November/December and would like to think this is a keeper now I have storage.
- The "cheapest" 456 manual is currently on at £65k privately or another £10k for the dealer car with "the luggage".
- There are precious little 550M manuals less than £90k (the McCurk car which is lovely but way overpriced) and similarly so with Slade's offerings.
- 90K would seem to be the price for a decent 599 and also the entry point for an FF.
So many decisions and I never envisaged being spoilt for choice for V12 Ferrari's. General market conditions (impending housing market crash?!/vat rises, more taxation etc.. someone is going to have to pay for Covid etc.. It is indeed a strange time to be looking at Ferrari's but I'm in as everything else fits in with my current finances.
Hard to tell. The whole used market is currently inflated highly because of a lack of new stock.
For V12's generally, rumour is that there'll only be one more V12 Ferrari. The order books are closed for the 812.
In 2030, the dispensation that small volume manufactures had to keep producing V12's is ending - so that's surely going to drive up prices when people realise the V12 (and likely the V8) are now dead donkeys.
I really don't see things getting much lower. Same for the F12.
IMO
Cheers
Chris.
For V12's generally, rumour is that there'll only be one more V12 Ferrari. The order books are closed for the 812.
In 2030, the dispensation that small volume manufactures had to keep producing V12's is ending - so that's surely going to drive up prices when people realise the V12 (and likely the V8) are now dead donkeys.
I really don't see things getting much lower. Same for the F12.
IMO
Cheers
Chris.
I never understand these conversations.
If you can truly afford the supercar you are passionate about then it’s future value is totally irrelevant.
Anyone worried about future value should be spending their money on something more conservative.
Supercars have moved higher by about 10-15% through the pandemic lows but the Nasdaq is up 100% from its pandemic sell off.
Unless you get very lucky it’s a fools errand treating supercars as potential investments.
If you can truly afford the supercar you are passionate about then it’s future value is totally irrelevant.
Anyone worried about future value should be spending their money on something more conservative.
Supercars have moved higher by about 10-15% through the pandemic lows but the Nasdaq is up 100% from its pandemic sell off.
Unless you get very lucky it’s a fools errand treating supercars as potential investments.
As above plus isn't it a case that someone who desires a 456 manual might not be so keen on a 599 with F1 - right now very few 575 are shifting so I'd investigate one of those as better value than a 550 and better looking than a 599 - with luck it could be 456 money
Are you looking to shift your 12C ?
Are you looking to shift your 12C ?
woodsypedia said:
Hard to tell. The whole used market is currently inflated highly because of a lack of new stock.
For V12's generally, rumour is that there'll only be one more V12 Ferrari. The order books are closed for the 812.
In 2030, the dispensation that small volume manufactures had to keep producing V12's is ending - so that's surely going to drive up prices when people realise the V12 (and likely the V8) are now dead donkeys.
I really don't see things getting much lower. Same for the F12.
IMO
Cheers
Chris.
My thoughts entirely about the V12's. I do believe their net worth will increase once they become less available. I think there will be a good few years yet before this is recognised.For V12's generally, rumour is that there'll only be one more V12 Ferrari. The order books are closed for the 812.
In 2030, the dispensation that small volume manufactures had to keep producing V12's is ending - so that's surely going to drive up prices when people realise the V12 (and likely the V8) are now dead donkeys.
I really don't see things getting much lower. Same for the F12.
IMO
Cheers
Chris.
DjSki said:
Think the 599 and F12 are much safer bets re further drops than the 456 and FF.
Interested as to why you think this - is it subjectively based on looks and or do you think that the F1 gearbox has any prowess over manual cars available previously?OldAndTired said:
I never understand these conversations.
If you can truly afford the supercar you are passionate about then it’s future value is totally irrelevant.
Anyone worried about future value should be spending their money on something more conservative.
Supercars have moved higher by about 10-15% through the pandemic lows but the Nasdaq is up 100% from its pandemic sell off.
Unless you get very lucky it’s a fools errand treating supercars as potential investments.
Your username is apt! I'm not worried about future residuals as much as I am about paying a reasonable non-inflated purchase price. After all if I can find the right car for £10k less. then that is two years servicing put asside. We're not all millionaires and I'm not a Ferrari expert hence the reason to ask.If you can truly afford the supercar you are passionate about then it’s future value is totally irrelevant.
Anyone worried about future value should be spending their money on something more conservative.
Supercars have moved higher by about 10-15% through the pandemic lows but the Nasdaq is up 100% from its pandemic sell off.
Unless you get very lucky it’s a fools errand treating supercars as potential investments.
You can go back to bed now
johnnyreggae said:
As above plus isn't it a case that someone who desires a 456 manual might not be so keen on a 599 with F1 - right now very few 575 are shifting so I'd investigate one of those as better value than a 550 and better looking than a 599 - with luck it could be 456 money
Are you looking to shift your 12C ?
Haven't bought the 12C yet, the profile picture is motivational and the 12C is is also on the list. Are you looking to shift your 12C ?
I've been following 550's and 575's for 4 years. Right now the market for those is in a kind of vacuum.
I've watched the same cars go through multiple auctions and dealers (some for all of that 4 years). The same cars pop up again and again, all of them have an issue. The issue is to high an asking price, condition problems, questionable history or a combination of all three.
The real good ones never make it to market, they simply change hands before we see them so prices are hard to quantify.
Twice I've agreed deals on off market cars for the owners to get seller remorse and pull out of the deal, in either case the cars would never have made it to Autotrader or Pistonheads before they sold, they were just great condition, spec and history.
As already mentioned in this thread, 575's is where the value is at. Particularly the non FHP cars, it was only very early ones that had suspension issues and this was very quickly addressed with ECU and suspension upgrades never mind the FHP.
The problem is getting dealers/seller to part with them for a price people are willing to pay. And this is where the Ferrari anomaly kicks in.
The vast majority of these cars (the good condition ones) are genuinely owned by people that don't need the money, of course there are exceptions, but on the whole when they come up for sale they are offered at a price at which the seller is happy. Don't want to pay that much? Then don't buy it.
One of the cars I "nearly" bought was owned by a guy that had four 550's and a total of twelve Ferrari's, he'd never even driven the 550 I was trying to buy off him, it had sat in storage with the dealer he bought it from. He just decided he liked the colour combo and didn't want to part with it.
So these aren't normal cars on the whole, they are a kind of market in their own right. Once they get over a certain age that is.
Modern V12's that a different conversation, they are still trading through main dealers and they have been produced in volumes that couldn't have been comprehended 15 to 20 years ago.
I've watched the same cars go through multiple auctions and dealers (some for all of that 4 years). The same cars pop up again and again, all of them have an issue. The issue is to high an asking price, condition problems, questionable history or a combination of all three.
The real good ones never make it to market, they simply change hands before we see them so prices are hard to quantify.
Twice I've agreed deals on off market cars for the owners to get seller remorse and pull out of the deal, in either case the cars would never have made it to Autotrader or Pistonheads before they sold, they were just great condition, spec and history.
As already mentioned in this thread, 575's is where the value is at. Particularly the non FHP cars, it was only very early ones that had suspension issues and this was very quickly addressed with ECU and suspension upgrades never mind the FHP.
The problem is getting dealers/seller to part with them for a price people are willing to pay. And this is where the Ferrari anomaly kicks in.
The vast majority of these cars (the good condition ones) are genuinely owned by people that don't need the money, of course there are exceptions, but on the whole when they come up for sale they are offered at a price at which the seller is happy. Don't want to pay that much? Then don't buy it.
One of the cars I "nearly" bought was owned by a guy that had four 550's and a total of twelve Ferrari's, he'd never even driven the 550 I was trying to buy off him, it had sat in storage with the dealer he bought it from. He just decided he liked the colour combo and didn't want to part with it.
So these aren't normal cars on the whole, they are a kind of market in their own right. Once they get over a certain age that is.
Modern V12's that a different conversation, they are still trading through main dealers and they have been produced in volumes that couldn't have been comprehended 15 to 20 years ago.
Edited by 21ATS on Saturday 4th September 21:27
Thanks for that reply. It helps me understand the market which clearly I had no concept of. Not at all the same experience as buying Porsche's. It seems I am resigned to pay OTT dealer prices to find a car that I like. I don't have an infinite budget nor infinite time on the planet (prime motive) to wait around for the perfect car so I will strike while my iron is hot, hopefully at the close of this year. I love the hunting for new metal. I love the research . I love dismissing the cars which do not make the mark - it's part of the ownership journey which then I photograph for later enjoyment when I'm no longer able to physically enjoy them.
On the plus side I've seen a few more cars come up for sale this weekend so things are on the up
On the plus side I've seen a few more cars come up for sale this weekend so things are on the up
I note one of my old 599's is for sale, lovely car, price seems toppy for the mileage and it's an original GTB with the HGTE upgrades that were available Exhaust, ECU, Wheels, Grill etc
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/11833017
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/11833017
LordFlathead said:
Thanks for that reply. It helps me understand the market which clearly I had no concept of. Not at all the same experience as buying Porsche's. It seems I am resigned to pay OTT dealer prices to find a car that I like. I don't have an infinite budget nor infinite time on the planet (prime motive) to wait around for the perfect car so I will strike while my iron is hot, hopefully at the close of this year. I love the hunting for new metal. I love the research . I love dismissing the cars which do not make the mark - it's part of the ownership journey which then I photograph for later enjoyment when I'm no longer able to physically enjoy them.
On the plus side I've seen a few more cars come up for sale this weekend so things are on the up
The other thing to consider, certainly if you're comparing to Porsche, is production volume. Rough worldwide production figures are as follows:-On the plus side I've seen a few more cars come up for sale this weekend so things are on the up
550 Maranello - 3000 - about 450 delivered to the UK
575 Maranello - 2000 - about 220 to the UK
599 circa 3500 built - not sure on the UK breakdown
F12 circa 5000 built, again not sure of UK numbers.
So you can see compared to Porsche this is a pretty small pool of cars.
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