Advice needed, Ferrari 550 Munich area.
Discussion
Dear Ferrari-aficionados!
Your assistance is required.
I'm popping over from the Aston section where I spend most of my time talking non-sense, in a quest for some advice from some ferrari petrol heads.
I've made a successful bid yesterday on a ferrari 550 maranello from 1998. This one to be precise: http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/ferrari-550-f...
It has been owned by a known indy in Krailling just outside Munich : http://www.scuderia-schoenberger.de/
I have arranged for a PPI at Saggio, which is an official Ferrari center in Munich.
My questions:
- They will conduct a PPI, I wonder if a cylinder pressure test should be part of the PPI?
- They said they require 1.5 - 2 hours, does that seem reasonable?
- Anything else specific which I should ask them to check that might not be standard PPI protocol?
- Does anyone have experience with either the Indy or the Ferrari dealer itself?
- Does anyone by any chance know this car or has seen it before for sale?
- Is there anything else specific I need to consider before buying a 550?
Any input is welcome, I have really tried to find the best 550 maranello I can afford in order to not get any nasty surprises and this seems to tick all the right boxes (although im not so certain about the black wheels and stripe), but any experienced owners or PH-ers that reside near Munich that can add any info...i would be more than appreciative to your input!
Regards
Brakke from Amsterdam.
Your assistance is required.
I'm popping over from the Aston section where I spend most of my time talking non-sense, in a quest for some advice from some ferrari petrol heads.
I've made a successful bid yesterday on a ferrari 550 maranello from 1998. This one to be precise: http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/ferrari-550-f...
It has been owned by a known indy in Krailling just outside Munich : http://www.scuderia-schoenberger.de/
I have arranged for a PPI at Saggio, which is an official Ferrari center in Munich.
My questions:
- They will conduct a PPI, I wonder if a cylinder pressure test should be part of the PPI?
- They said they require 1.5 - 2 hours, does that seem reasonable?
- Anything else specific which I should ask them to check that might not be standard PPI protocol?
- Does anyone have experience with either the Indy or the Ferrari dealer itself?
- Does anyone by any chance know this car or has seen it before for sale?
- Is there anything else specific I need to consider before buying a 550?
Any input is welcome, I have really tried to find the best 550 maranello I can afford in order to not get any nasty surprises and this seems to tick all the right boxes (although im not so certain about the black wheels and stripe), but any experienced owners or PH-ers that reside near Munich that can add any info...i would be more than appreciative to your input!
Regards
Brakke from Amsterdam.
Edited by Brakke on Monday 2nd February 14:12
Not sure if you have already been to see / drive the car in person or if your plan is to rely on the PPI and have it delivered?
The ad suggests that a cambelt service was done 2yrs ago and it has only done 2,000kms since but you may appreciate that you will be on a 3yr interval on the 550 and may wish to budget for having it done again next year...
The exhaust does not appear to be OEM, which may suit you, but it can be a matter of taste.
Nothing wrong with a bit of paint but it would appear that the front and rear bumpers have been painted with the lower sections in body colour and not satin black as it would have left the factory...
I suppose a PPI from a local Ferrari dealer should give you some confidence but I'm not sure how far this approach takes you... Your contract is with the vendor and the nearby Ferrari dealer may not wish to list in detail all the jobs that would be nice to do if they had any chance of getting the business!
At least you are in the Netherlands as you are close to http://www.forzaservice.nl/ who would appear to have a good reputation and will be able to support you going forward.
P.S. One thing to look at on Maranellos (esp the 550) are the door pillars. The doors are heavy (steel) and if/when they are swung open to the check straps with too much force, cracks can appear at the checkstrap/hinge area.
The ad suggests that a cambelt service was done 2yrs ago and it has only done 2,000kms since but you may appreciate that you will be on a 3yr interval on the 550 and may wish to budget for having it done again next year...
The exhaust does not appear to be OEM, which may suit you, but it can be a matter of taste.
Nothing wrong with a bit of paint but it would appear that the front and rear bumpers have been painted with the lower sections in body colour and not satin black as it would have left the factory...
I suppose a PPI from a local Ferrari dealer should give you some confidence but I'm not sure how far this approach takes you... Your contract is with the vendor and the nearby Ferrari dealer may not wish to list in detail all the jobs that would be nice to do if they had any chance of getting the business!
At least you are in the Netherlands as you are close to http://www.forzaservice.nl/ who would appear to have a good reputation and will be able to support you going forward.
P.S. One thing to look at on Maranellos (esp the 550) are the door pillars. The doors are heavy (steel) and if/when they are swung open to the check straps with too much force, cracks can appear at the checkstrap/hinge area.
Thanks gents for taking the time to respond.
Im making a little check list for additional stuff being mentioned!
-Indeed I won't be able to go visit and see the car until end of the month, so decided to rely solely on the PPI.
Have told the Ferrari centre, that anything that is found I might have them fix it depending on the total cost. The vendor has guaranteed me that the car needs absolutely nothing and is mechanically and exteriorly faultless. So if they find anything, I will negotiate that the Vendor pays for it or reduces the price of the car accordingly. Ofcourse i cannoto guarantee the ferrari dealer that they will be allowed to fix it, because if the vendor doesnt lower his price if anything is found, then im not buying the car thus no repair order will be given. The Ferrari dealer understood the situation and agreed to review the car. They even didnt require any upfront payment from my side for the PPI, even after I insisted.
- Ill make sure to inform about the exhaust, would be actually a plus to me. I dont like cars that sound like vacuumcleaners.
- Paint part doesnt bother me, but ill make sure they inspect crash damage. It seems to me the front spoiler is more a wear item and one could get it fixed and repainted in body color. Not too worry about that either.
- regarding the cambelt, true....ill just bring it next year to either forza or munsterhuis in holland and see what they both say. Have heard good things from Forza so far.
Thanks again for the tips!
Regards
Brakke
Im making a little check list for additional stuff being mentioned!
-Indeed I won't be able to go visit and see the car until end of the month, so decided to rely solely on the PPI.
Have told the Ferrari centre, that anything that is found I might have them fix it depending on the total cost. The vendor has guaranteed me that the car needs absolutely nothing and is mechanically and exteriorly faultless. So if they find anything, I will negotiate that the Vendor pays for it or reduces the price of the car accordingly. Ofcourse i cannoto guarantee the ferrari dealer that they will be allowed to fix it, because if the vendor doesnt lower his price if anything is found, then im not buying the car thus no repair order will be given. The Ferrari dealer understood the situation and agreed to review the car. They even didnt require any upfront payment from my side for the PPI, even after I insisted.
- Ill make sure to inform about the exhaust, would be actually a plus to me. I dont like cars that sound like vacuumcleaners.
- Paint part doesnt bother me, but ill make sure they inspect crash damage. It seems to me the front spoiler is more a wear item and one could get it fixed and repainted in body color. Not too worry about that either.
- regarding the cambelt, true....ill just bring it next year to either forza or munsterhuis in holland and see what they both say. Have heard good things from Forza so far.
Thanks again for the tips!
Regards
Brakke
Sports seats are a rare option, leather on dash looks in good condition.
I don't think compression is needed on a PPI on these, they are far stronger engines than 355 for example.
Check if the coolant hose in the V has been replaced recently, check for fuel smell in boot, check aircon unit is fully functional. Have a look at the WalkerSport website, there's a buyers guide on there
I don't think compression is needed on a PPI on these, they are far stronger engines than 355 for example.
Check if the coolant hose in the V has been replaced recently, check for fuel smell in boot, check aircon unit is fully functional. Have a look at the WalkerSport website, there's a buyers guide on there
hi
thanks for the tip, i had read that buying guide.http://www.walkersport.co.uk/550-buying-coming-soon.htm
My list getting more extensive.
I will call the ferrari centre to go through what they are going through and ask them to specifically check the items i have compiled in my list.
Many thanks for all tips so far!
Regards
Brakke
thanks for the tip, i had read that buying guide.http://www.walkersport.co.uk/550-buying-coming-soon.htm
My list getting more extensive.
I will call the ferrari centre to go through what they are going through and ask them to specifically check the items i have compiled in my list.
Many thanks for all tips so far!
Regards
Brakke
Not sure how many 550's Tim Walker of WalkerSport sees in a year but there are a few points in his buying guide that jump out on my reading....
"Trim quality is very high" - there plenty of cars out there with sticky interior trim pieces and there are well documented instances of the leather dashboard covering / parcel shelf and or headlining shrinking as the 'wrong adhesive' may have been used at the factory. Window rubbers and headlight gaskets will become more of an issue the older these cars get but it is clearly going to be worse on cars that have been kept outside / parked in the sun for extended periods.
"Wheels are Magnesium" - the original ones were but they should have all been recalled and replaced by aluminium ones that look the same (but the new wheels have 'C' section spokes as opposed to a 'D' section).
"Engine servicing is very straight forward, cam belts are easily reached" - by easily reached, he means the engine stays in which is clearly a bonus as we've all heard about the traditional Ferrari engine out servicing racket (engineered-in to give dealers something to live off IMO)! However, changing the belts & tensioners is still a '6hr job' for a lot of marque specialists who presumably do it on a lock-and-swap basis. FYI, the official Ferrari workshop allowance for the job is 16.3hrs but that includes time to set the timing (aka degreeing the cams). There are a range of views out there as to whether or not the lock-and-swap is 'acceptable' or 'sacrilege' but I suppose the reality is that most owners just want their cars to run safely with fresh belts and are less interested in the finer points of optimum cam timing.
"expect to have a [coolant] leak every three to four years" - a bit over the top given the milages that most cars are likely to see and the fact that higher spec hoses from the 575M (and even higher spec aftermarket hoses that should last indefinitely) are available.
"A lot of undertrays are damaged by dealers who cut the louvres out" - you can see the louvres he's talking about in the below image. You can also see them from above if you open the bonnet and look down. I have always wondered how widespread this botch job is and what 'dealers' are implicated! Perhaps it was one dealer in particular that he was having a dig at?
Other points that don't come out in that guide are recurring problems with the engine mounts (replace with 575M versions - improved but not perfect), shock absorbers (they can leak) and potential problems with spark plug leads that can be expensive to fix as you can't buy them individually.
P.S. There's a nice long thread at the following link that may provide some insight to the potential scope of work for keeping one of these cars in tip top condition but don't let it put you off!
http://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/modern-v12s-456-...
"Trim quality is very high" - there plenty of cars out there with sticky interior trim pieces and there are well documented instances of the leather dashboard covering / parcel shelf and or headlining shrinking as the 'wrong adhesive' may have been used at the factory. Window rubbers and headlight gaskets will become more of an issue the older these cars get but it is clearly going to be worse on cars that have been kept outside / parked in the sun for extended periods.
"Wheels are Magnesium" - the original ones were but they should have all been recalled and replaced by aluminium ones that look the same (but the new wheels have 'C' section spokes as opposed to a 'D' section).
"Engine servicing is very straight forward, cam belts are easily reached" - by easily reached, he means the engine stays in which is clearly a bonus as we've all heard about the traditional Ferrari engine out servicing racket (engineered-in to give dealers something to live off IMO)! However, changing the belts & tensioners is still a '6hr job' for a lot of marque specialists who presumably do it on a lock-and-swap basis. FYI, the official Ferrari workshop allowance for the job is 16.3hrs but that includes time to set the timing (aka degreeing the cams). There are a range of views out there as to whether or not the lock-and-swap is 'acceptable' or 'sacrilege' but I suppose the reality is that most owners just want their cars to run safely with fresh belts and are less interested in the finer points of optimum cam timing.
"expect to have a [coolant] leak every three to four years" - a bit over the top given the milages that most cars are likely to see and the fact that higher spec hoses from the 575M (and even higher spec aftermarket hoses that should last indefinitely) are available.
"A lot of undertrays are damaged by dealers who cut the louvres out" - you can see the louvres he's talking about in the below image. You can also see them from above if you open the bonnet and look down. I have always wondered how widespread this botch job is and what 'dealers' are implicated! Perhaps it was one dealer in particular that he was having a dig at?
Other points that don't come out in that guide are recurring problems with the engine mounts (replace with 575M versions - improved but not perfect), shock absorbers (they can leak) and potential problems with spark plug leads that can be expensive to fix as you can't buy them individually.
P.S. There's a nice long thread at the following link that may provide some insight to the potential scope of work for keeping one of these cars in tip top condition but don't let it put you off!
http://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/modern-v12s-456-...
As mentioned, don't worry about leak downs on these. Trim does wear and go sticky, check the gears are smooth when warm (a ring-nut on the lay shaft can come loose and expensive carnage ensues!) check the wiring to the footwell fuse box, this location is a usual hotspot for melted plugs and bodge-up wiring, specifically the cooling fan and fuel pumps. HLook under the intake for coolant leaks, either from the large hose (modified ones are shiny silicon, early ones are dull black rubber) or the smaller two ally pipes. Look for oil leaks from the cam seals ( a big job) and consequential soaking of ancillaries, in particular the a/c clutch pack and alternator, both of which will fail if sodden with oil. It's worth pulling the plug off the abs ecu under the front of the car, as sometimes these can be full of corrosion, again, costly to put right. As mentioned, look for recent bills for engine mount replacement, 575 mounts are better but still only last three years or so. A proper inspection on a 550 should take 3-4 hours.
Edited by Cerberaherts on Monday 2nd February 23:38
Little update:
Have spoken to the master mechanic, and we agreed that he will inspect the following checklist. I havent added everything otherwise, it will take a full day. The guesstimate is that this will take around 3-4 hours to check.
I am sharing this in case anyone else wants to have a sensible list for a PPI done.
1. State of complete exhaust and fit, original exhaust?
2. Mm on the tires?
3. State Brakes and discs?
4. Clutch wear detactable?
5. Leather in dash still has good fitment or glue has let gone?
6. Check all hoses but especially Coolant hose in the v area
7. Check for fuel smell in boot
8. Check aircon unit fully functional
9. Undertray original and no holes cut
10. check the wiring to the footwell fuse box
11. check specifically the cooling fan and fuel pumps
12. Look under the intake for coolant leaks
13. Look for oil leaks from the cam seals ( a big job) and consequential soaking of ancillaries, in particular the a/c clutch pack and alternator
14. t's worth pulling the plug off the abs ecu under the front of the car, as sometimes these can be full of corrosion
15. Engine mounts, upgraded 575m or originals still and what is the state of the engine mounts
16. Check Suspension checking for worn bushings, leaking shocks, twisted actuators
17. Check front & rear wheels for noise & play in bearings
18. Check HVAC system
19. Track rod ends
20. Brake lines
21. Catalytic converter
22. Rear main seal
23. Panel fit and/or crash damage
24. Paint thickness and originality
25. Steering rack for play
26. Inspect/tighten intake manifold fasteners. Look for evidence of damaged intake gasket
27. Inspect interior of intake plenum/manifold for excessive oil
28. Inspect air filters
Thanks again for all the help.
Regards
Brakke
Have spoken to the master mechanic, and we agreed that he will inspect the following checklist. I havent added everything otherwise, it will take a full day. The guesstimate is that this will take around 3-4 hours to check.
I am sharing this in case anyone else wants to have a sensible list for a PPI done.
1. State of complete exhaust and fit, original exhaust?
2. Mm on the tires?
3. State Brakes and discs?
4. Clutch wear detactable?
5. Leather in dash still has good fitment or glue has let gone?
6. Check all hoses but especially Coolant hose in the v area
7. Check for fuel smell in boot
8. Check aircon unit fully functional
9. Undertray original and no holes cut
10. check the wiring to the footwell fuse box
11. check specifically the cooling fan and fuel pumps
12. Look under the intake for coolant leaks
13. Look for oil leaks from the cam seals ( a big job) and consequential soaking of ancillaries, in particular the a/c clutch pack and alternator
14. t's worth pulling the plug off the abs ecu under the front of the car, as sometimes these can be full of corrosion
15. Engine mounts, upgraded 575m or originals still and what is the state of the engine mounts
16. Check Suspension checking for worn bushings, leaking shocks, twisted actuators
17. Check front & rear wheels for noise & play in bearings
18. Check HVAC system
19. Track rod ends
20. Brake lines
21. Catalytic converter
22. Rear main seal
23. Panel fit and/or crash damage
24. Paint thickness and originality
25. Steering rack for play
26. Inspect/tighten intake manifold fasteners. Look for evidence of damaged intake gasket
27. Inspect interior of intake plenum/manifold for excessive oil
28. Inspect air filters
Thanks again for all the help.
Regards
Brakke
Good list, just a couple of points to pick up on being picky 
HVAC system = aircon, so you only really need one bullet point
Check for fault codes
Engages gears ok
Also AFAIK it's only cars with the F1 gearbox you can check the clutch wear (short of actually taking the thing out, which you can't obv. do at a PPI)
But a good list/buyers checklist to have
HVAC system = aircon, so you only really need one bullet point
Check for fault codes
Engages gears ok
Also AFAIK it's only cars with the F1 gearbox you can check the clutch wear (short of actually taking the thing out, which you can't obv. do at a PPI)
But a good list/buyers checklist to have
ah fudge.
yeah i was compiling my own list prior to coming hear and then merged lists and then reduced them to a smaller number of points.
Hvac needs to go and yes, they already mentioned they will do a running gear test, and thats also something i will definitely do myself.
Thanks guys, ill give an update tuesday when i hear the outcome.
Regards
Brakke
yeah i was compiling my own list prior to coming hear and then merged lists and then reduced them to a smaller number of points.
Hvac needs to go and yes, they already mentioned they will do a running gear test, and thats also something i will definitely do myself.
Thanks guys, ill give an update tuesday when i hear the outcome.
Regards
Brakke
Its possible to do a quick inspection of the clutch on both the 550 and 575M as the clutch bell housings are vented and a borescope can be inserted...
However, not sure if an accurate measurement in terms of %age wear is possible. The ad suggests that the transmission was overhauled in 2011 and that the clutch and release bearing was done at the same time so you might ask what precisely was done (and how many kms since).
However, not sure if an accurate measurement in terms of %age wear is possible. The ad suggests that the transmission was overhauled in 2011 and that the clutch and release bearing was done at the same time so you might ask what precisely was done (and how many kms since).
Edited by Mogul on Tuesday 3rd February 16:14
Thanks for the pics, good to know although I am not sure they will inspect it that way.... will ask.
I made a separate list of questions for the vendor, I am calling them tomorrow to go through it. Most importantly to see when the clutch was fixed.
They have agreed to put together, a letter addressed to me by the indy that has done all the work on the 550, stating exactly what has been done and when.
There are no receipts, as the owner was the indy shop owner, so he paid no receipt or anything although it is stamped in the book.
Hope this car is up to par and I can start enjoying it early spring!
I made a separate list of questions for the vendor, I am calling them tomorrow to go through it. Most importantly to see when the clutch was fixed.
They have agreed to put together, a letter addressed to me by the indy that has done all the work on the 550, stating exactly what has been done and when.
There are no receipts, as the owner was the indy shop owner, so he paid no receipt or anything although it is stamped in the book.
Hope this car is up to par and I can start enjoying it early spring!
Little update:
PPI was done by Saggio. Very pleasant experience dealing with them and the cost of the PPI was very reasonable even beneficial!
They found a few minor things, such a small weep of oil near the cam-seal gasket, and some other minor items which helped me to drive the price down a bit more.
But overall the car was deemed a very well maintained and they didn't see any specific reason not to purchase.
So now im the proud owner of an all-black 550 maranello.
Need to plan a trip to Munich in March to pick up the car.
Big thanks for all great tips here and I'm sure I'm gonna need more help in the future!
Brakke
PPI was done by Saggio. Very pleasant experience dealing with them and the cost of the PPI was very reasonable even beneficial!
They found a few minor things, such a small weep of oil near the cam-seal gasket, and some other minor items which helped me to drive the price down a bit more.
But overall the car was deemed a very well maintained and they didn't see any specific reason not to purchase.
So now im the proud owner of an all-black 550 maranello.
Need to plan a trip to Munich in March to pick up the car.
Big thanks for all great tips here and I'm sure I'm gonna need more help in the future!
Brakke
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