Discussion
Firstly can I please ask that you don't judge me (yet) - both as a newbie and also as someone who has been 'laying down' cars for the past couple of years as an alternative to watching my money depreciate in the bank…
Over the past 18 months I've followed some fairly strict personal buying rules - so far have acquired Ferraris 355 GTB manual; 430 coupe manual; 550M; Aston Vanquish S; BMW Z3M Coupe S54 and a couple of other stranger things. Cars all live in a heated / dehumidified garage and are not driven (I know…I asked you to not judge me….).
My question is about priorities in where to go next? - my ambition is to get all of these over time, its more a question of what's going to be hottest next? My budget is around £100k and at this stage I'm considering:
F430 Scuderia (left hand drive) - iconic car; limited production; already have a 430 manual; but I can only afford the LHD (frustrated that I turned down the Grigio Silverstone at Dick Lovett for £125k last year)
F599 GTB - beautiful design but too new / not fully depreciated yet?
Lambo Murcielago - stunning design; very limited production; early 2003-2005 models feel like good value
Ferrari 456M GT manual + a 996 GT2 - maybe a strange choice but two cars that are surprisingly rare and can be found for c£50k each; challenge is whether the maintenance costs on both will outstrip their growth
997 GT3 / RS - I've just sold a 996 C4S and a 993 Targa, having come to the realisation that most 911s just aren't 'special' enough for me; everyone is guiding me towards a GT3 RS however...
Thoughts?
Over the past 18 months I've followed some fairly strict personal buying rules - so far have acquired Ferraris 355 GTB manual; 430 coupe manual; 550M; Aston Vanquish S; BMW Z3M Coupe S54 and a couple of other stranger things. Cars all live in a heated / dehumidified garage and are not driven (I know…I asked you to not judge me….).
My question is about priorities in where to go next? - my ambition is to get all of these over time, its more a question of what's going to be hottest next? My budget is around £100k and at this stage I'm considering:
F430 Scuderia (left hand drive) - iconic car; limited production; already have a 430 manual; but I can only afford the LHD (frustrated that I turned down the Grigio Silverstone at Dick Lovett for £125k last year)
F599 GTB - beautiful design but too new / not fully depreciated yet?
Lambo Murcielago - stunning design; very limited production; early 2003-2005 models feel like good value
Ferrari 456M GT manual + a 996 GT2 - maybe a strange choice but two cars that are surprisingly rare and can be found for c£50k each; challenge is whether the maintenance costs on both will outstrip their growth
997 GT3 / RS - I've just sold a 996 C4S and a 993 Targa, having come to the realisation that most 911s just aren't 'special' enough for me; everyone is guiding me towards a GT3 RS however...
Thoughts?
Nice problem to have and currently in a similar situation albeit for one car that I will use as a summer toy. My short list is 430f1 599 gallardo Murcielago egear (if I can get in my garage) currently.
In your case bearing in mind non use and upkeep and storage costs would you not possibly be better off with one F40 or similar ? When and if the market crashes you only have one problem to offload not 10.
Appreciate it's all a numbers game.
In your case bearing in mind non use and upkeep and storage costs would you not possibly be better off with one F40 or similar ? When and if the market crashes you only have one problem to offload not 10.
Appreciate it's all a numbers game.
Six months ago I suggested an Alfa 8C at £ 120 000 but now they seem north of 150 which is less sensible
I see you have a 550 already but if you are not really buying these cars to drive why not go for the similar but very different maximum 575 : HGTC - Euro import should just be within your budget
I see you have a 550 already but if you are not really buying these cars to drive why not go for the similar but very different maximum 575 : HGTC - Euro import should just be within your budget
High on the list has to be any 997 RS - if you can get a decent one at £100k. Also, have you thought about a Testarossa? They will be very rare and very different but also iconic.
I once had a DBS manual. I can see your logic with the Vanquish S and you are right. However, the DBS manual is well under £100k, and is probably the pick of the Gaydon cars - quite limited in production, very beautiful and expensive to make plus it had that manual gearbox with a different final drive to the auto, meaning it was far more accelerative. Once they introduced the auto orders stopped so it was only produced for about 12-18 months (2009). I sold mine for £75k in 2012 - it is worth that now, so has already been static for a couple of years. It needs another 10 years (by which time Aston will be owned by Mercedes with AMG powertrains) and I think it will be worth something - the best classics are from a very few brands, Aston is one of them, they are beautiful, they are rare and they were usually (though not always - 964 RS) loved when they hit the market. There's also the Daniel Craig James Bond thing - Sean Connery made the DB5's name and look what happened there.
I hope you do drive the cars at least a little bit - it will save you money in the long term and it will also give you an added benefit to your investments. Over long periods of time mileage is irrelevant, for instance who mentions mileage when selling a multi-million pound GTO?
Other cars? 911 930 Carrera RS, lovely car and only 52 imported into UK, might be above £100k now though - if you can find one.
Also, I think 360s will go well. You could combine one with the 996 GT2 which is a good shout. As a classic, I prefer the 360 to the 430 - it is its own design and quite beautiful. I have owned both and the problem with the 430 its that they put a much larger engine in the original 360 design, so they had to push the rear vents up and out to make room. It gives the car a much heavier rear end than the 360, plus they used the design language from the Enzo to dress the rear - that styling only impacted the 430 and was then dropped. The 360 is important because it was the first all aluminium car and used a monocoque sub frame as opposed to a tubular steel sub frame (as used in 'old' F1). The 355 was the last of that type of construction on the mid V8 line. However, the 360 still used the V8 that traces its origin right back to the 308 - it was the most powerful iteration of it and sported 5 valve cylinder heads.
A manual 360 is a better long term bet than the manual 430 in my view but neither are 'wrong'.
As a rule, if you want to be invested in reasonably liquid assets I would stick to Porsche, Ferrari and Aston. These brands have the best following compared with their limited production cars (obviously doesn't apply to al Porsches but the low volume 911s will continue to have big appreciation - 4.0RS for example) One other brand that just might start to do well is Lamborghini - and the V12s will be the ones with the big gains. Already Miura is iconic and hugely valuable but only recently has it been the case that Countach has begun to follow. That car is probably the most 'iconic' car I can remember growing up with - has there ever been a more poster friendly car? It issues a word of warning though, it has taken 30 years for the Countach to really begin to move forward and that is probably because although all the ingredients were in place with the product, the brand lagged behind and meant that the market for collectables was much softer. Now though, it may just have its day. Insurance for this is in the shape of the original Murcielago. The first Audi influenced car and the best example of old Lamborghini values and Audi build quality. They are in your budget and would certainly brighten up your garage. Not as easy to liquidate at the moment but patience still brings a pretty solid price (I think).
I once had a DBS manual. I can see your logic with the Vanquish S and you are right. However, the DBS manual is well under £100k, and is probably the pick of the Gaydon cars - quite limited in production, very beautiful and expensive to make plus it had that manual gearbox with a different final drive to the auto, meaning it was far more accelerative. Once they introduced the auto orders stopped so it was only produced for about 12-18 months (2009). I sold mine for £75k in 2012 - it is worth that now, so has already been static for a couple of years. It needs another 10 years (by which time Aston will be owned by Mercedes with AMG powertrains) and I think it will be worth something - the best classics are from a very few brands, Aston is one of them, they are beautiful, they are rare and they were usually (though not always - 964 RS) loved when they hit the market. There's also the Daniel Craig James Bond thing - Sean Connery made the DB5's name and look what happened there.
I hope you do drive the cars at least a little bit - it will save you money in the long term and it will also give you an added benefit to your investments. Over long periods of time mileage is irrelevant, for instance who mentions mileage when selling a multi-million pound GTO?
Other cars? 911 930 Carrera RS, lovely car and only 52 imported into UK, might be above £100k now though - if you can find one.
Also, I think 360s will go well. You could combine one with the 996 GT2 which is a good shout. As a classic, I prefer the 360 to the 430 - it is its own design and quite beautiful. I have owned both and the problem with the 430 its that they put a much larger engine in the original 360 design, so they had to push the rear vents up and out to make room. It gives the car a much heavier rear end than the 360, plus they used the design language from the Enzo to dress the rear - that styling only impacted the 430 and was then dropped. The 360 is important because it was the first all aluminium car and used a monocoque sub frame as opposed to a tubular steel sub frame (as used in 'old' F1). The 355 was the last of that type of construction on the mid V8 line. However, the 360 still used the V8 that traces its origin right back to the 308 - it was the most powerful iteration of it and sported 5 valve cylinder heads.
A manual 360 is a better long term bet than the manual 430 in my view but neither are 'wrong'.
As a rule, if you want to be invested in reasonably liquid assets I would stick to Porsche, Ferrari and Aston. These brands have the best following compared with their limited production cars (obviously doesn't apply to al Porsches but the low volume 911s will continue to have big appreciation - 4.0RS for example) One other brand that just might start to do well is Lamborghini - and the V12s will be the ones with the big gains. Already Miura is iconic and hugely valuable but only recently has it been the case that Countach has begun to follow. That car is probably the most 'iconic' car I can remember growing up with - has there ever been a more poster friendly car? It issues a word of warning though, it has taken 30 years for the Countach to really begin to move forward and that is probably because although all the ingredients were in place with the product, the brand lagged behind and meant that the market for collectables was much softer. Now though, it may just have its day. Insurance for this is in the shape of the original Murcielago. The first Audi influenced car and the best example of old Lamborghini values and Audi build quality. They are in your budget and would certainly brighten up your garage. Not as easy to liquidate at the moment but patience still brings a pretty solid price (I think).
Edited by LukeyLikey on Thursday 4th December 14:27
LukeyLikey said:
...the original Murcielago. The first Audi influenced car and the best example of old Lamborghini values and Audi build quality.
The final 6.0 Diablos also fit this, though with heavier weighting of the old Lambo values vs Audi sanitising. I'm always surprised at the low prices of these. Edited by DanPhoto on Thursday 4th December 09:43
Wise words - many thanks
I fully agree on the guidance to stay with Porsche, Ferrari, Aston. I'm probably most uncertain about Aston in all of these - I've considered Vantage V12 and DBS Manual but am just not sure whether the brand has truly global iconic status
360 is an interesting one. A manual rosso/crema car was actually the very first thing I look for - agree that the design is 'purer' than the 430. Combination with a 996 GT2 is probably a safe bet and reduces overall concentration risk of having lots of money in a single car.
I fully agree on the guidance to stay with Porsche, Ferrari, Aston. I'm probably most uncertain about Aston in all of these - I've considered Vantage V12 and DBS Manual but am just not sure whether the brand has truly global iconic status
360 is an interesting one. A manual rosso/crema car was actually the very first thing I look for - agree that the design is 'purer' than the 430. Combination with a 996 GT2 is probably a safe bet and reduces overall concentration risk of having lots of money in a single car.
DanPhoto said:
The final 6.0 Diablos also fit this, though with heavier weighting of the old Lambo values vs Audi sanitising. I'm always surprised at the low prices of these.
The Diablos are experiencing a bit of a surge this last year, hot on the heals of the Countach risesEdited by DanPhoto on Thursday 4th December 09:43
The post 94 cars are generally £100k or greater now anyway - take a look at the classifieds.
handbuilt limited production numbers are more likely to rise than more larger production run cars
but like Andrew said later, its a shame to lock cars up and not use them - they are meant to be driven!
The GT2 is a bit of a no brainer if you are so inlicined. Miss mine.
That said, any investment is a risk, and I don't see the upward curve on classic car investment keeping up it's recent success rate. As a result I think it's pretty well topped out for a while and I'm out of the market, having recently sold my GT2 and Noble. Just keeping the 550.
Back into stocks and property for a while me-thinks.
That said, any investment is a risk, and I don't see the upward curve on classic car investment keeping up it's recent success rate. As a result I think it's pretty well topped out for a while and I'm out of the market, having recently sold my GT2 and Noble. Just keeping the 550.
Back into stocks and property for a while me-thinks.
550M said:
The GT2 is a bit of a no brainer if you are so inlicined. Miss mine.
That said, any investment is a risk, and I don't see the upward curve on classic car investment keeping up it's recent success rate. As a result I think it's pretty well topped out for a while and I'm out of the market, having recently sold my GT2 and Noble. Just keeping the 550.
Back into stocks and property for a while me-thinks.
I've been pondering this question too. I think that if you can buy for the long term, it is still ok but you may have to ride out a few bumps in the meantime. If you invest expecting to get big growth over the next few years you might be in for a shock.That said, any investment is a risk, and I don't see the upward curve on classic car investment keeping up it's recent success rate. As a result I think it's pretty well topped out for a while and I'm out of the market, having recently sold my GT2 and Noble. Just keeping the 550.
Back into stocks and property for a while me-thinks.
This all presupposes that you are thinking of cars that have not gone stratospheric already - those you have to leave alone. It is unfortunate but one of my all-time faves has gone mad over the last few years - the Dino. I won't buy one at these prices and that means I may never own one. Disappointing.
TP321 said:
i don't understand why we pay capital gains tax on house price appreciation and not on classic cars? Surely this bubble would burst if theses classic car gains were taxed - i wonder how long it will take for politicians to see this.
Not sure that will happen. Cars are a 'degrading' asset. How can you work out which ones will go up and when? If it is on sale (obvious choice) that also means that any reductions in value would be tax allowable and they ain't gonna do that! diametric123 said:
My stranger purchases are probably not that strange - Z3M Roadster S54 (because they only made 60 of them); Renault V6 Clio; about to get a 928 because I think front-engined Porsches will be next
Have you considered any unmolested examples of the 90's super/sportscars from Japan - the R34 GTR/NSX/22b etcandrew said:
please don't lock any lambos away purely for investment purposes
far too many older cars are now hidden away, and there weren't that many in the first place
Hear, hear! And not just Lambos, please. While it is convenient for those of us who own our cars because we want to drive them to be able to argue that our hobby is self-financing, and the trend of rising prices also makes them worth restoring when we have driven them too much, thus ensuring that they are preserved for posterity instead of scrapped, it is sad that so many wonderful cars have become the equivalent of stock certificates.far too many older cars are now hidden away, and there weren't that many in the first place
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