488 high tickover / blue smoke plume
Discussion
Have a 488, and the old girl ticks over at 1,000, maybe 950 nothing less and from what I can see it should be 700.
So what could be causing it?
I have had a look at the rear exhausts and they are black with soot, I'm guessing thats normal, is it?
About every 50 or so, "starts", I look in the mirror and I see a plume of smoke. This is confusing, as I look in the mirror and the smoke is in the engine bay, so where would that come from?
It clears very quickly
I jump out to look and the smoke clears almost immediately and then I look, no, I, "study", the exhaust, and it blows crystal clear and just how it should be. The other 49 starts are all perfect. I say 50 .... I'm guessing, its highly irregular.
She drives perfect, she runs perfect, I'm just wondering if all these things are related.
Any ideas?
So what could be causing it?
I have had a look at the rear exhausts and they are black with soot, I'm guessing thats normal, is it?
About every 50 or so, "starts", I look in the mirror and I see a plume of smoke. This is confusing, as I look in the mirror and the smoke is in the engine bay, so where would that come from?
It clears very quickly
I jump out to look and the smoke clears almost immediately and then I look, no, I, "study", the exhaust, and it blows crystal clear and just how it should be. The other 49 starts are all perfect. I say 50 .... I'm guessing, its highly irregular.
She drives perfect, she runs perfect, I'm just wondering if all these things are related.
Any ideas?
MaverickV12 said:
Panamax said:
You may find it varies with how long the car has been left parked since last used. Oil can seep down the valve guides and then get burnt at the next start.
Blue smoke is always oil.
Thank you, what would the smoke escape from in the engine bay?Blue smoke is always oil.
When you've seen the blue smoke, for how long was the engine running when it was last started?
If I started my CLK63 just to move it around in the garage, or on to the drive where I'd switch off and leave it, there would be some blue smoke from the exhaust when I next started it - otherwise it was perfect from cold. It was a low mileage car, and that was just how that particular engine was. In my case I'll wager that the conditions weren't good for fuel burn and the excess fuel was washing some oil film from the bores onto the piston crowns, leading to blue smoke on next start.
I quickly learnt to avoid brief periods of engine running.
If I started my CLK63 just to move it around in the garage, or on to the drive where I'd switch off and leave it, there would be some blue smoke from the exhaust when I next started it - otherwise it was perfect from cold. It was a low mileage car, and that was just how that particular engine was. In my case I'll wager that the conditions weren't good for fuel burn and the excess fuel was washing some oil film from the bores onto the piston crowns, leading to blue smoke on next start.
I quickly learnt to avoid brief periods of engine running.
mwstewart said:
When you've seen the blue smoke, for how long was the engine running when it was last started?
If I started my CLK63 just to move it around in the garage, or on to the drive where I'd switch off and leave it, there would be some blue smoke from the exhaust when I next started it - otherwise it was perfect from cold. It was a low mileage car, and that was just how that particular engine was. In my case I'll wager that the conditions weren't good for fuel burn and the excess fuel was washing some oil film from the bores onto the piston crowns, leading to blue smoke on next start.
I quickly learnt to avoid brief periods of engine running.
Always brief, makes manoeuvring a bugger and I hold my breath at petrol stations, but this does sound very similar. This only has 10k on it, and its been in and out of Ferrari franchise dealers, so I'm hoping its the correct mileage.If I started my CLK63 just to move it around in the garage, or on to the drive where I'd switch off and leave it, there would be some blue smoke from the exhaust when I next started it - otherwise it was perfect from cold. It was a low mileage car, and that was just how that particular engine was. In my case I'll wager that the conditions weren't good for fuel burn and the excess fuel was washing some oil film from the bores onto the piston crowns, leading to blue smoke on next start.
I quickly learnt to avoid brief periods of engine running.
So how would it appear in the engine bay?
The exhausts are black
Just got a plume of smoke again, so a bit disappointed. I want to take the old girl to the Alps, and I need her running perfectly, and I know something is wrong.
Then today I was driving and the tick-over dropped to 700
Stopped and took a photo. So I know she can tick-over correctly. With the exhaust pipes black and then I checked the temp and she's running cool, way cooler than any of my other vehicles.
I have VW's that run at 102C for the Oil. So I'm wondering if the engine was running rich, then that would cause additional cooling by evaporative cooling in the combustion process.
But then I looked for other temperatures of 488's on the internet and they are all running cool, which may be a prerequisite for forced induction, I don't know.
Then I thought that I had a tick-over problem years ago in a BMW I had, and it was the MAF.
So I'm think the tickover problem could be linked to the MAF and if it were, it could be related to the rich running. So I started to look for this ...
https://www.wheelsjoint.com/ferrari-488-pista-bad-...
Then the more I looked the more it, "looks", like a MAF issue.
Anyone have any thoughts?
Then today I was driving and the tick-over dropped to 700
Stopped and took a photo. So I know she can tick-over correctly. With the exhaust pipes black and then I checked the temp and she's running cool, way cooler than any of my other vehicles.
I have VW's that run at 102C for the Oil. So I'm wondering if the engine was running rich, then that would cause additional cooling by evaporative cooling in the combustion process.
But then I looked for other temperatures of 488's on the internet and they are all running cool, which may be a prerequisite for forced induction, I don't know.
Then I thought that I had a tick-over problem years ago in a BMW I had, and it was the MAF.
So I'm think the tickover problem could be linked to the MAF and if it were, it could be related to the rich running. So I started to look for this ...
https://www.wheelsjoint.com/ferrari-488-pista-bad-...
Then the more I looked the more it, "looks", like a MAF issue.
Anyone have any thoughts?
I suspect you have a few things going on.
First if you are seeing smoke inside the engine bay then you either have an induction, vacuum leak or exhaust leak. This may also explain the high idle.
Second I suspect you have a small leak on an oil seal in one of the turbos, this is most likely IMHO. If not that then possibly and oil leak into the intake system via the recirc system etc.
Third and last you may have at least one defective sensor, IAT, MAF, whatever. (doubt it though)
To start with I would want to rule out any kind of air leak. So, if it were me I would get a smoke generator stuck up the exhaust. Check that first. Then induction second. If no visible smoke then you can rule that out.
After that I would be stripping off the various hoses to inspect for any residual oil. So induction side for oil deposits but also the bottom hose on the intercoolers to check for oil there. If you find oil you can narrow down the origin from there.
After that it would need a dealer to check that all check valves and induction valves are working and not stuck open (has been known). Also check your exhaust valves are not stuck open.
A dealer would also be able to tell why its idle is so high and if the water temps are right or not.
Its quite possible your oil leak has gummed up something in the system... then thats leading to the high idle.
First if you are seeing smoke inside the engine bay then you either have an induction, vacuum leak or exhaust leak. This may also explain the high idle.
Second I suspect you have a small leak on an oil seal in one of the turbos, this is most likely IMHO. If not that then possibly and oil leak into the intake system via the recirc system etc.
Third and last you may have at least one defective sensor, IAT, MAF, whatever. (doubt it though)
To start with I would want to rule out any kind of air leak. So, if it were me I would get a smoke generator stuck up the exhaust. Check that first. Then induction second. If no visible smoke then you can rule that out.
After that I would be stripping off the various hoses to inspect for any residual oil. So induction side for oil deposits but also the bottom hose on the intercoolers to check for oil there. If you find oil you can narrow down the origin from there.
After that it would need a dealer to check that all check valves and induction valves are working and not stuck open (has been known). Also check your exhaust valves are not stuck open.
A dealer would also be able to tell why its idle is so high and if the water temps are right or not.
Its quite possible your oil leak has gummed up something in the system... then thats leading to the high idle.
gotoPzero said:
I suspect you have a few things going on.
First if you are seeing smoke inside the engine bay then you either have an induction, vacuum leak or exhaust leak. This may also explain the high idle.
Second I suspect you have a small leak on an oil seal in one of the turbos, this is most likely IMHO. If not that then possibly and oil leak into the intake system via the recirc system etc.
Third and last you may have at least one defective sensor, IAT, MAF, whatever. (doubt it though)
To start with I would want to rule out any kind of air leak. So, if it were me I would get a smoke generator stuck up the exhaust. Check that first. Then induction second. If no visible smoke then you can rule that out.
After that I would be stripping off the various hoses to inspect for any residual oil. So induction side for oil deposits but also the bottom hose on the intercoolers to check for oil there. If you find oil you can narrow down the origin from there.
After that it would need a dealer to check that all check valves and induction valves are working and not stuck open (has been known). Also check your exhaust valves are not stuck open.
A dealer would also be able to tell why its idle is so high and if the water temps are right or not.
Its quite possible your oil leak has gummed up something in the system... then thats leading to the high idle.
Wow, that something to look at, thank you. One easy point to look at is the exhaust valves, you say check they are not stuck open, I have an electric switch to open them and I leave them open because I like the sound. This would cause a problem? Should I ride with them closed? How would them open all the time impact on idle?First if you are seeing smoke inside the engine bay then you either have an induction, vacuum leak or exhaust leak. This may also explain the high idle.
Second I suspect you have a small leak on an oil seal in one of the turbos, this is most likely IMHO. If not that then possibly and oil leak into the intake system via the recirc system etc.
Third and last you may have at least one defective sensor, IAT, MAF, whatever. (doubt it though)
To start with I would want to rule out any kind of air leak. So, if it were me I would get a smoke generator stuck up the exhaust. Check that first. Then induction second. If no visible smoke then you can rule that out.
After that I would be stripping off the various hoses to inspect for any residual oil. So induction side for oil deposits but also the bottom hose on the intercoolers to check for oil there. If you find oil you can narrow down the origin from there.
After that it would need a dealer to check that all check valves and induction valves are working and not stuck open (has been known). Also check your exhaust valves are not stuck open.
A dealer would also be able to tell why its idle is so high and if the water temps are right or not.
Its quite possible your oil leak has gummed up something in the system... then thats leading to the high idle.
Thanks, I'm looking at the other stuff shortly. The MAF Sensors are dead easy to access, but I looked on the screws and saw that they have been opened before.
I wondered about the air filter and looked to see if it has ever been changed, and I saw the Torx had been opened before, that does not mean that it has been changed.
Then I thought about the spark plugs, the mileage is 10,000, I've added about 500 to this, but that's assuming its true!! There are other threads on PH's about this. But changing the spark plugs and even the coils, but this is about £1,000.00, but having said that, the car is 2016, so time wise, should they be changed anyway?
O2 sensors, they are cheap to buy, but I have not looked to see if they are easy to replace.
I will re-read what you have written and start looking.
I would not start chasing parts yet. You need to make sure you dont have any sort of vac leak first, IMVHO.
As for the valves, yes I have heard the 488 can suffer from problems if the valves are open all the time. These cars are quite complex and Ferrari have the ECUs doing all sorts of things and if you throw something unexpected into the mix that can make it do all sorts of odd things. YMMV.
You have 4 problems.
1High idle
2Smoke at start up.
3Dirty exhaust.
4Smoke in the engine bay.
I think the best thing to do would be to get the car diagnosed by a Ferrari dealer. They are going to be able to read everything thats going on and should be able to pin point the issue.
It could be something as simple as a blocked hose or crack in a hose causing all the problems.
Or each problem might be its own issue.
As for the valves, yes I have heard the 488 can suffer from problems if the valves are open all the time. These cars are quite complex and Ferrari have the ECUs doing all sorts of things and if you throw something unexpected into the mix that can make it do all sorts of odd things. YMMV.
You have 4 problems.
1High idle
2Smoke at start up.
3Dirty exhaust.
4Smoke in the engine bay.
I think the best thing to do would be to get the car diagnosed by a Ferrari dealer. They are going to be able to read everything thats going on and should be able to pin point the issue.
It could be something as simple as a blocked hose or crack in a hose causing all the problems.
Or each problem might be its own issue.
gotoPzero said:
I would not start chasing parts yet. You need to make sure you dont have any sort of vac leak first, IMVHO.
I think the best thing to do would be to get the car diagnosed by a Ferrari dealer. They are going to be able to read everything thats going on and should be able to pin point the issue.
Thank you for that, I did email a FranchiseDealership, and gave them an overview of everything, and then I included a link to this very thread, this meant that they could read everything.I think the best thing to do would be to get the car diagnosed by a Ferrari dealer. They are going to be able to read everything thats going on and should be able to pin point the issue.
They did not get back to me until late in the day because she wanted the Tech (Master Tech) to read it all. Taking into account that she had an overview and this threat and photos to go on, this is their reply.
"..... master technician and the rev range you have mentioned is perfectly normal for this this car. With some smoke from the exhaust on start-up from cold this is perfectly normal, you can also find what looks like smoke under the engine cover ....."
The reply was more lengthy and included some personal stuff, so I can't post it all, but it ended.....
".....If you have any further concerns let me know, but as I say I passed your email onto ****** and he said this is nothing to be concerned about....."
So I'm a tad without direction at the moment. I can't keep emailing them with every idea that I, or you, or others, can put forward, so unless I have something more concrete.
Will give it some more thought and post up any ideas, I have to go careful, "doing", anything to the car as yet, because its still under warranty, and if I bugger anything up ..... I could find myself compromising my own position.
I guess it depends what we call a "plume of smoke".
I am thinking like a proper cloud...
But if its just more of a quick whiff and then gone in 10 seconds that is probably more normal. My RS6 used to do this. Every 10th start or so it would send out a small puff of blue smoke. I just assumed it was a tiny drop of oil getting into the turbos and then settling and didn't worry about it.
I guess if they are saying its normal then you have that on file now should you ever get more of an issue from it so I would just drive it and not worry.
I am thinking like a proper cloud...
But if its just more of a quick whiff and then gone in 10 seconds that is probably more normal. My RS6 used to do this. Every 10th start or so it would send out a small puff of blue smoke. I just assumed it was a tiny drop of oil getting into the turbos and then settling and didn't worry about it.
I guess if they are saying its normal then you have that on file now should you ever get more of an issue from it so I would just drive it and not worry.
Well ...... I seem to have solved the high tickover situation.
Sometimes the engine would run at 650 rpm and sound great, other times it would run at 975/1000 and I could not understand why. A friend of mine who's a tech for Jaguar/Landrover confirmed what others had mentioned that running auxiliary equipment in the car could increase the rpm, to account for the additional drain.
Now this is not my first SuperCar and its not my first car, I started with carburettor cars and currently drive some of the most technologically forward engines around, but I have never see this before......
With the engine running (and warm) and No other drain, so no radio, no nothing, it ran at 650/700rpm, perfect.
All I did then was turn the Fan on, that cut the AirCon Compressor in and with a momentary pause of some 2 seconds, the engine ran at 975/1000rpm. Turning the fan on and off and on and off and the engine rpm followed the drain on the engine.
In 40 years of driving, I've never seen that. I've turned a high drain on before and the rpm has, "blipped", and then returned to normal, but never stayed at 1000rpm.
So we have a 661bhp engine running at 1000rpm tickover. I must ask, "why?". The reason being, when is the fan not running? If its cold, we have the heaters running with the AirCon de-misting, so its on, if its Hot, we have the AirCon running. If it a nice warm day, not hot/cold, then with the windows closed, its hot and you run the AirCon ..... the fans and AirCon are running all the time. Even when its warm and you have the windows open, thats great up to 30mph, but the wife closes the windows straight away because she doesn't like the noise, or its blowing her hair.
The Fan/AirCon is on all the time, the car will always run at 1000rpm
Sometimes the engine would run at 650 rpm and sound great, other times it would run at 975/1000 and I could not understand why. A friend of mine who's a tech for Jaguar/Landrover confirmed what others had mentioned that running auxiliary equipment in the car could increase the rpm, to account for the additional drain.
Now this is not my first SuperCar and its not my first car, I started with carburettor cars and currently drive some of the most technologically forward engines around, but I have never see this before......
With the engine running (and warm) and No other drain, so no radio, no nothing, it ran at 650/700rpm, perfect.
All I did then was turn the Fan on, that cut the AirCon Compressor in and with a momentary pause of some 2 seconds, the engine ran at 975/1000rpm. Turning the fan on and off and on and off and the engine rpm followed the drain on the engine.
In 40 years of driving, I've never seen that. I've turned a high drain on before and the rpm has, "blipped", and then returned to normal, but never stayed at 1000rpm.
So we have a 661bhp engine running at 1000rpm tickover. I must ask, "why?". The reason being, when is the fan not running? If its cold, we have the heaters running with the AirCon de-misting, so its on, if its Hot, we have the AirCon running. If it a nice warm day, not hot/cold, then with the windows closed, its hot and you run the AirCon ..... the fans and AirCon are running all the time. Even when its warm and you have the windows open, thats great up to 30mph, but the wife closes the windows straight away because she doesn't like the noise, or its blowing her hair.
The Fan/AirCon is on all the time, the car will always run at 1000rpm
MaverickV12 said:
Well ...... I seem to have solved the high tickover situation.
Sometimes the engine would run at 650 rpm and sound great, other times it would run at 975/1000 and I could not understand why. A friend of mine who's a tech for Jaguar/Landrover confirmed what others had mentioned that running auxiliary equipment in the car could increase the rpm, to account for the additional drain.
I was going to mention this when you first posted - but then thought I'd be laughed at!Sometimes the engine would run at 650 rpm and sound great, other times it would run at 975/1000 and I could not understand why. A friend of mine who's a tech for Jaguar/Landrover confirmed what others had mentioned that running auxiliary equipment in the car could increase the rpm, to account for the additional drain.
I have a big V8 engine that ticks over at 750 - but put the a/c on and the tickover goes up to 900+.
NDA said:
I was going to mention this when you first posted - but then thought I'd be laughed at!
I have a big V8 engine that ticks over at 750 - but put the a/c on and the tickover goes up to 900+.
Its bonkers, I have small high output diesels and it runs all the electronics of the day and it doesn't change the tickover at all. I even took a video of it to prove it to myself, then tested it again and again.I have a big V8 engine that ticks over at 750 - but put the a/c on and the tickover goes up to 900+.
Bonkers.
On a change of note, I took the car to a friend of mine
He runs his own Automotive Electrical business, had all the computers of the day, plugged into the system and brought up the engine running on his screen. He tried to explain about the figures, but he lost me at, "hello", .....
Something to do with the O2 sensors have the latitude to change up to 25% either richer or leaner, I'm confused, but it was something like that. He read the sensors and one of them was running about 1.2%, "something", it changed from 3% to about 0.5%, and settled easily.
He said, not only is it running within parameters, but that it was running perfectly, absolutely perfectly.
He started laughing and said, there is nothing wrong with your car at all......
So at this stage, I'm wondering if I dreamt it all. The plume of smoke has not appeared for a while now. The car has about 10k on the clock, assuming it correct, and I'd like to think it was, then I wonder if its the first time its being driven for a while and just clearing a few bunged up tubes ....IDK
Gassing Station | Ferrari V8 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff