430 manual vs 458
Discussion
About 3 years ago I bought a pristine low mileage, manual 430, the logic being that the last of the mid-engined manuals would allow me almost cost free Ferrari motoring as it would at least hold it’s value and quite possibly appreciate. This would appear to have been the case although I obviously have to be careful how many miles I put on it. However, I am now beginning to think that the 458 might be an even better appreciation bet despite the lack of a manual as it would appear to be increasingly considered by many as the pinnacle of this particularly Ferrari breed. Anyone have a feel for this market place?
NicG said:
About 3 years ago I bought a pristine low mileage, manual 430, the logic being that the last of the mid-engined manuals would allow me almost cost free Ferrari motoring as it would at least hold it’s value and quite possibly appreciate. This would appear to have been the case although I obviously have to be careful how many miles I put on it. However, I am now beginning to think that the 458 might be an even better appreciation bet despite the lack of a manual as it would appear to be increasingly considered by many as the pinnacle of this particularly Ferrari breed. Anyone have a feel for this market place?
I'd say a 430 Manual is rarer for sure, if you have made solid money and want to try something else then for sure sell it, will the 430 manual appreciate further, well I think it will but for sure it has shot up a lot in the last 1-2 years.The 458 I do agree is a pinnacle, such an awesome all round car, but there are a lot more, will they appreciate, absolutely because if anything the 458 Speciale values are exploding and will continue to climb, so its fair to say a 458 will move a little also. But a 458 I don't think is going to appreciate by huge amounts and they have already gone up a little in retail values so if you buy expensive now it could in short term maybe drop, also always remember that the trade on 458 tend to be 10-20k below the RRP, so if you buy a 150k car today, trade tomorrow will be around 130k.
458 with buckets, forged wheels, carbon wheel is a must, additional carbon on interior is nice, red, yellow, grey all seem to sell well, the latter colours are rarer and I'd say to maintain strong values sub 20k miles, ideally sub 10k as an investment. I myself drive mine, because that is for me the whole point of owning such an incredible car, drive it and forget about values.
As an investment proposal, I think neither are particularly impressive once you factor in things like extending the drivetrain warranty and consumables/maintenance (speaking as the owner of an older 458 and previous owner of an F430 Spider) if you intend to drive it at all. Even if you don't, as an investment with the very occasional fun drive I'd be putting money somewhere else (in an index fund post next major correction for example).
To drive, and as maybe the last of the n/a ICE cars, the F430 is not shamed but it is bettered by the 458 by some margin in my opinion anyway, although I think the F430 sounds better.
Edit: Sorry merely as an investment I think keep the F430 manual.
To drive, and as maybe the last of the n/a ICE cars, the F430 is not shamed but it is bettered by the 458 by some margin in my opinion anyway, although I think the F430 sounds better.
Edit: Sorry merely as an investment I think keep the F430 manual.
Gibbo205 said:
But a 458 I don't think is going to appreciate by huge amounts and they have already gone up a little in retail values so if you buy expensive now it could in short term maybe drop,
Back in Dec 19 I thought about a 458 and the prices started at about £ 120 - a year ago the starting point was much higher - inspired by this thread I looked again and it seemed like they were close to starting at £ 120 again There might be more of a gap to collector cars but it feels like the above quote is an accurate assessment
I must admit I can't see a 430 manual being worth £ 50 more than an F1 but then I don't really understand spending a six figure sum on something that one is afraid to use for fear of compromising the value (unless it represents an excessive portion of your net worth)
Edited by johnnyreggae on Wednesday 22 December 12:46
Just buy the one you prefer and use it. If it doesn't depreciate its a bonus. The most important investment you can make is in your happiness and memories. Just ensure you make some and don't get stuck on monetary values. If you have spare cash to invest in cars buy as many Mk1 MX5's as you can and put them in a big shed as they have appreciated around 400% in 4 years and keep your 430 and use it.
i must admit that this whole manual premium business amuses me
thousands of different people test drove new cars and almost all decided that they preferred the f1 ( e-gear on the other channel ) over manual
yet now the story goes that manuals are worth premiums, in part because nobody wanted them when new ( ! ) and in part because they're "better" to drive...
...as long as you don't drive them of course
thousands of different people test drove new cars and almost all decided that they preferred the f1 ( e-gear on the other channel ) over manual
yet now the story goes that manuals are worth premiums, in part because nobody wanted them when new ( ! ) and in part because they're "better" to drive...
...as long as you don't drive them of course
Thanks all. I am torn as I think the 430 I own is probably one of the best manuals around and obviously not that common. The mystique surrounding the gated shift does appear to allow it to maintain premium a healthy premium but I can’t help feeling that the 458 driving experience is another step on and I am not such a purist as to insist that a proper sports car has to be a manual. The pondering is, of course, half the fun of it…
andrew said:
i must admit that this whole manual premium business amuses me
thousands of different people test drove new cars and almost all decided that they preferred the f1 ( e-gear on the other channel ) over manual
yet now the story goes that manuals are worth premiums, in part because nobody wanted them when new ( ! ) and in part because they're "better" to drive...
...as long as you don't drive them of course
Because the F1 was new tech at the time and seemed like the future, until dual clutch boxes came along then almost everyone realised how awful a single clutch robotised gearbox was. I liken the F1 to a CD, seemed good at the time but then we remembered how good vinyl was and how engaging it was. meanwhile MP3 made music convenient and the CD was no more. Vinyl / manual for weekends and fun. Dual clutch / MP3 for commuting and the gym. Single clutch / CD in the bin.....thousands of different people test drove new cars and almost all decided that they preferred the f1 ( e-gear on the other channel ) over manual
yet now the story goes that manuals are worth premiums, in part because nobody wanted them when new ( ! ) and in part because they're "better" to drive...
...as long as you don't drive them of course
Probably not a popular opinion but both are massively overpriced already IMHO and the dealer margins are huge.
Seems a great way to lose a shed load of money on dealer spread alone so personally I would suggest sticking with the rarer F430 manual.
That said manuals will also have had their day when the new gen of buyers won't even know what a manual is and only low mileage collectors cars will be sought after.
We are all doomed lol, so just buy what you want and drive it like you stole it as much as possible.
If covid has told us nothing else its live for today not tomorrow
Seems a great way to lose a shed load of money on dealer spread alone so personally I would suggest sticking with the rarer F430 manual.
That said manuals will also have had their day when the new gen of buyers won't even know what a manual is and only low mileage collectors cars will be sought after.
We are all doomed lol, so just buy what you want and drive it like you stole it as much as possible.
If covid has told us nothing else its live for today not tomorrow
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 22 December 17:02
Bispal said:
andrew said:
i must admit that this whole manual premium business amuses me
thousands of different people test drove new cars and almost all decided that they preferred the f1 ( e-gear on the other channel ) over manual
yet now the story goes that manuals are worth premiums, in part because nobody wanted them when new ( ! ) and in part because they're "better" to drive...
...as long as you don't drive them of course
Because the F1 was new tech at the time and seemed like the future, until dual clutch boxes came along then almost everyone realised how awful a single clutch robotised gearbox was. I liken the F1 to a CD, seemed good at the time but then we remembered how good vinyl was and how engaging it was. meanwhile MP3 made music convenient and the CD was no more. Vinyl / manual for weekends and fun. Dual clutch / MP3 for commuting and the gym. Single clutch / CD in the bin.....thousands of different people test drove new cars and almost all decided that they preferred the f1 ( e-gear on the other channel ) over manual
yet now the story goes that manuals are worth premiums, in part because nobody wanted them when new ( ! ) and in part because they're "better" to drive...
...as long as you don't drive them of course
and a robotised manual being perceived as better than a manual
makes a manual more valuable than either ?!
ps : what are these vinyls and gyms of which you speak ???
andrew said:
Bispal said:
andrew said:
i must admit that this whole manual premium business amuses me
thousands of different people test drove new cars and almost all decided that they preferred the f1 ( e-gear on the other channel ) over manual
yet now the story goes that manuals are worth premiums, in part because nobody wanted them when new ( ! ) and in part because they're "better" to drive...
...as long as you don't drive them of course
Because the F1 was new tech at the time and seemed like the future, until dual clutch boxes came along then almost everyone realised how awful a single clutch robotised gearbox was. I liken the F1 to a CD, seemed good at the time but then we remembered how good vinyl was and how engaging it was. meanwhile MP3 made music convenient and the CD was no more. Vinyl / manual for weekends and fun. Dual clutch / MP3 for commuting and the gym. Single clutch / CD in the bin.....thousands of different people test drove new cars and almost all decided that they preferred the f1 ( e-gear on the other channel ) over manual
yet now the story goes that manuals are worth premiums, in part because nobody wanted them when new ( ! ) and in part because they're "better" to drive...
...as long as you don't drive them of course
and a robotised manual being perceived as better than a manual
makes a manual more valuable than either ?!
ps : what are these vinyls and gyms of which you speak ???
I think the reason so many F1 transmission cars were ordered was not only that it was the new shiny thing with the tenuous F1 link [it was the time when the Scuderia actually still won races and championships in the recent past], but also that dealers told people "it is a must have for resale" and Ferrari buyers seem to have always put a lot of emphasis on resale spec
I would keep the 430 manual. While not exactly pretty, it is not bad looking and a manual Ferrari is a special thing to own. As mentioned above the spread to trade will eat a lot of your future upside. If anything I'd suggest to sell now as cars are quite overvalued imo and rates will eventually rise again.
I don’t have a problem with the looks, preferring it to my earlier 360. It is also very involving to drive, more analogue than later cars. As for whether we are reaching peak prices, I think that risk assets have a little way to go but most of the fun has almost certainly been had. I will then be relying on rarity and the gradual phasing out of ICEs…
NicG said:
I don’t have a problem with the looks, preferring it to my earlier 360. It is also very involving to drive, more analogue than later cars. As for whether we are reaching peak prices, I think that risk assets have a little way to go but most of the fun has almost certainly been had. I will then be relying on rarity and the gradual phasing out of ICEs…
Rarity is the key, with condition and mileage next.F430 manual has far more potential to hold current values going forward IMHO.
That said you cant be driving it mega miles which is so sad.
If money and investment is key for you park the F430 for 10 years
supersport said:
Don’t park it, drive it.
Cars are for driving, to not do so seems such a waste.
Absolutely this!Cars are for driving, to not do so seems such a waste.
Never understood the fuss about 360 and 430 manuals. I owned a 360 manual and felt it was the most clumsy gearbox ever, my way 430 and 430 scud (both f1) felt archaic compared to my first 458.
While the gated gearbox is a pretty thing I don’t think it works so well on modern ferraris, sure on the older cars when everything was slower but on more recent cars it’s like getting up to turn your tele over!
MingtheMerciless said:
As an investment proposal, I think neither are particularly impressive once you factor in things like extending the drivetrain warranty and consumables/maintenance (speaking as the owner of an older 458 and previous owner of an F430 Spider) if you intend to drive it at all. Even if you don't, as an investment with the very occasional fun drive I'd be putting money somewhere else (in an index fund post next major correction for example).
To drive, and as maybe the last of the n/a ICE cars, the F430 is not shamed but it is bettered by the 458 by some margin in my opinion anyway, although I think the F430 sounds better.
Edit: Sorry merely as an investment I think keep the F430 manual.
Have to agree with the above. Unless it’s a super rare Ferrari (and I suppose on some levels because it’s a manual, the 430 is…), it’s a lot of hassle and not always wise to approach these kinds of cars as investments once you factor in all the costs to keep them in tip top condition (which an investment car needs to be).To drive, and as maybe the last of the n/a ICE cars, the F430 is not shamed but it is bettered by the 458 by some margin in my opinion anyway, although I think the F430 sounds better.
Edit: Sorry merely as an investment I think keep the F430 manual.
I think these cars are more enjoyable when just treated as a car, and then have other investments for making money. That said, if they do appreciate then happy days of course.
Nice as it was, I don’t remember the 430 manual I drove to be that amazing considering the values, so I would personally get a 458 that could be more useable.
Re: some of the comments above on the manual not being great - I’ve driven a few different 360s and owned a spider, and there is definitely variance in how the gear box is set up. One particular car I drove had an absolutely lovely manual box. They do need to be set up right.
458s are creeping up and it's been a long time coming. I bought mine in July last year with a view to holding it for a bit and then probably hopping into a GT3. Irritatingly the values of the Ferraris stagnated and the GT3s soared. This does seem to be reversing now though the 458 I think I could get within 5k of what I paid for it even though I bought from a main dealer. The GT3s are the same cars that have been sat there for 3 months. A couple of dealers notably JZM and Ashgood get the right prices and sell what they have coming in. Seeing mains put 991.2 GT3s on for 160k it's just crazy. They are a 135 to 140k car absolute tops.
At tge risk of being controversial and as a newbie who has read posts for many years before postingmyself i think ive spotted the usual PH trend that basically is, if you own a car its the best thing since sliced bread and going up but if you are buying a car its overpriced 
Sadly there are too many opinions from owners to be constructive in most cases.
At least as a neutral with no stake in the game I can contribute an unbiased opinion
Sadly there are too many opinions from owners to be constructive in most cases.
At least as a neutral with no stake in the game I can contribute an unbiased opinion
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 23 December 09:17
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