Super Car SOR method of selling risk Ferrari

Super Car SOR method of selling risk Ferrari

Author
Discussion

mali7

Original Poster:

7 posts

45 months

Saturday 9th January 2021
quotequote all
Read about selling supercar via Sale or Return method, wanted to check if anyone had experience of that for selling their own car. What are the risks to think about, and what should be completed to ensure a smooth process. If allowed, please do let me know what dealer would be recommended.

I know the risk of dealer going under, but that is a risk when selling as well as when buying - isn’t it? How can this be ensured is kept to minimum? In current economic condition, are dealers at risk? Those I have spoken to have mentioned they are still selling a lot of cars and a lot via online viewing and collection etc

But would that work same for private sales, via piston heads? Any thoughts and help and advice would be much appreciated for a Ferrari California. SOR via dealer would give buyer dealer facility like finance warranty etc but at a cost often £10k+ Overall added.
Many thanks.

SydneyBridge

9,264 posts

164 months

Saturday 9th January 2021
quotequote all
I would read this thread! Although i am sure there are lots of reputable dealers to use

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...


IMI A

9,591 posts

207 months

Saturday 9th January 2021
quotequote all
Try Tom at 911 Virgin. They'll charge you £4-5k as they need to warranty their cars and also make a profit. May seem odd giving to a Porsche dealer but they do sell other marques (have done so for me) and I imagine they will have a number of modern 911 cab owners seeking to perhaps upgrade to a Ferrari cab next. JZM maybe worth a call too I've used them too in the past. 911v seem to sell cars very quickly in my experience.

rat rod

4,997 posts

71 months

Saturday 9th January 2021
quotequote all
mali7 said:
Read about selling supercar via Sale or Return method, wanted to check if anyone had experience of that for selling their own car. What are the risks to think about, and what should be completed to ensure a smooth process. If allowed, please do let me know what dealer would be recommended.

I know the risk of dealer going under, but that is a risk when selling as well as when buying - isn’t it? How can this be ensured is kept to minimum? In current economic condition, are dealers at risk? Those I have spoken to have mentioned they are still selling a lot of cars and a lot via online viewing and collection etc

But would that work same for private sales, via piston heads? Any thoughts and help and advice would be much appreciated for a Ferrari California. SOR via dealer would give buyer dealer facility like finance warranty etc but at a cost often £10k+ Overall added.
Many thanks.
I'm a little OCD about my cars to let them out of my sight so having people jumping in and out of them and complete strangers driving

them even under the supervision of a salesman is not for me,

Only problem selling yourself is you need lots and lots of patience, silly questions where the answers are in the advert,

sorting out the time wasters from buyers, someone who says ,Oh that's lucky i only live a few miles down the road compared to

a buyer that is willing to travel 100 miles to view, May be lucky for him but is he just on a jolly and killing time before his

Sunday roast , Then there's the payment ,making sure all funds are cleared before releasing the car,

If you are a busy person maybe that would be to much for you, then a S.O.R would be best.

Someone like Kent High Performance, Foskers, Rardley Simon Furlonger all old school established Ferrari ,Super Car

specialists, have had transactions with them all at some time or another.

When any of what i call the new breed of super car specialists call me they don't even try to make a trade offer ,they go

straight on to talking S.O.R so have no money to buy stock and can only pay you when they get paid, yes they can arrange the finance

but the part exchange could be a problem for them as they would have to get the p/ex underwritten

within the trade otherwise they can not pay you in full where as a garage who puts the car into stock can decide to go on

on and retail or trade the p/ex as they own it.

Most importantly are you going to get paid by these guys, if they have no capital they are your bank and if they get into financial

trouble your money could end up paying their bills or worst still the bank forecloses on them when they see a large sum of money come in

which might be your money

Did have a text from a outfit last time i advertised one of my cars which said that they had several clients who where looking for a car just like

mine, looked on their web site and they did appear to have some lovely stock but probably all on S.O.R, but noticed that every

car had a different background, different driveways and houses ,no premises in any of them, not to bright of them.

didn't even get back to them with a courtesy call.


Not all glum and doom out there just got to be careful who you entrust .your bride and joy to.

There's plenty of good guys out there but also as many bad ones.

Wish you luck whichever decision you make.

Ps - Main dealer would be the safest if you car meets with their criteria ,but can also be the meanest depending

on the amount of work your car may need before they can put the Ferrari 2 year warranty on.






Edited by rat rod on Saturday 9th January 14:51

rat rod

4,997 posts

71 months

Saturday 9th January 2021
quotequote all
IMI A said:
Try Tom at 911 Virgin. They'll charge you £4-5k as they need to warranty their cars and also make a profit. May seem odd giving to a Porsche dealer but they do sell other marques (have done so for me) and I imagine they will have a number of modern 911 cab owners seeking to perhaps upgrade to a Ferrari cab next. JZM maybe worth a call too I've used them too in the past. 911v seem to sell cars very quickly in my experience.
He's one of the good guys, did a deal that didn't involve a Porsche but bought a Caterham off him and he took my Ferrari in,money

my way which most dealers don't like, nice guy to deal with.

voicey

2,457 posts

193 months

Saturday 9th January 2021
quotequote all
I am no longer involved with selling (SoR or otherwise) so this is not an advert but some notes on how we managed it so it felt safer for everyone.

I had a contract drawn up by our solicitors that laid out how the process would work - stuff like having a set timescale and price (which could only be varied with agreement in writing). Importantly for me the vendor guaranteed that they had free title to sell and that all finance was declared in the agreement. Importantly for the vendor it also detailed when and how the payment would be made (we allowed 3 days after sale but usually paid same day). Other stuff dealt with who was responsible for what - transportation, marketing, preparation, etc.

I also had a seperate account for client funds. Not that it had any legal standing as it does in banking but I didn't want my operational funds to be polluted with client money. It did give people reassurance as we were able to consistently show the operation of the client money account to anyone who wanted to see.

In order to be transparent, the sales invoices showed the details of the vendor and buyer and all the numbers including our fee.

All cars were declared on our stock declaration and the vendors were always welcome to check with the broker that the cars were insured (the agreement also stated that we would insure the car).

Having said that, nothing would have stopped me from pocketing a little extra or delaying paying on completing a sale (other than my conscience). I would strongly recommend that people check out the accounts of any company they are thinking of placing their car with. Even if you don't know how to read a set of accounts there are very obvious clues to the health of a company in the public domain. Some of the big names mentioned above have hardly any cash in the bank or huge liabilities that make you wonder just how solvent they really are. Some can't even get their act together to post their accounts so rely on the "trick" of changing the accounting period by one day to grant a 3 month extension. Some don't even have a good handle on the value of their stock (look for a nice round number in this entry). Etc, etc

It's not difficult to do a small amount of due diligence....

Drclarke

1,201 posts

179 months

Saturday 9th January 2021
quotequote all
rat rod said:
I'm a little OCD about my cars to let them out of my sight so having people jumping in and out of them and complete strangers driving

them even under the supervision of a salesman is not for me,

Only problem selling yourself is you need lots and lots of patience, silly questions where the answers are in the advert,

sorting out the time wasters from buyers, someone who says ,Oh that's lucky i only live a few miles down the road compared to

a buyer that is willing to travel 100 miles to view, May be lucky for him but is he just on a jolly and killing time before his

Sunday roast , Then there's the payment ,making sure all funds are cleared before releasing the car,

If you are a busy person maybe that would be to much for you, then a S.O.R would be best.

Someone like Kent High Performance, Foskers, Rardley Simon Furlonger all old school established Ferrari ,Super Car

specialists, have had transactions with them all at some time or another.

When any of what i call the new breed of super car specialists call me they don't even try to make a trade offer ,they go

straight on to talking S.O.R so have no money to buy stock and can only pay you when they get paid, yes they can arrange the finance

but the part exchange could be a problem for them as they would have to get the p/ex underwritten

within the trade otherwise they can not pay you in full where as a garage who puts the car into stock can decide to go on

on and retail or trade the p/ex as they own it.

Most importantly are you going to get paid by these guys, if they have no capital they are your bank and if they get into financial

trouble your money could end up paying their bills or worst still the bank forecloses on them when they see a large sum of money come in

which might be your money

Did have a text from a outfit last time i advertised one of my cars which said that they had several clients who where looking for a car just like

mine, looked on their web site and they did appear to have some lovely stock but probably all on S.O.R, but noticed that every

car had a different background, different driveways and houses ,no premises in any of them, not to bright of them.

didn't even get back to them with a courtesy call.


Not all glum and doom out there just got to be careful who you entrust .your bride and joy to.

There's plenty of good guys out there but also as many bad ones.

Wish you luck whichever decision you make.

Ps - Main dealer would be the safest if you car meets with their criteria ,but can also be the meanest depending

on the amount of work your car may need before they can put the Ferrari 2 year warranty on.



Edited by rat rod on Saturday 9th January 13:38
We had the same when we were selling the DB9 a few years ago. Chancer dealers calling and emailing saying they had many clients for our car, and when you look on the website they clearly don’t have any stock.

67Dino

3,624 posts

111 months

Saturday 9th January 2021
quotequote all
I’ve always used a car broker to sell my more upmarket cars, for my last few sales James at Apex Lifestyle, who is excellent. He collects the car, does all the photographing and marketing, stores it securely, and deals with everyone interested (including the tyre kickers/fantasists). Takes a percentage on sale but less than a dealer would and worth every penny for the hassle free experience.

No doubt there are others around too.

Edited by 67Dino on Saturday 9th January 14:30

rat rod

4,997 posts

71 months

Saturday 9th January 2021
quotequote all
voicey said:
I am no longer involved with selling (SoR or otherwise) so this is not an advert but some notes on how we managed it so it felt safer for everyone.

I had a contract drawn up by our solicitors that laid out how the process would work - stuff like having a set timescale and price (which could only be varied with agreement in writing). Importantly for me the vendor guaranteed that they had free title to sell and that all finance was declared in the agreement. Importantly for the vendor it also detailed when and how the payment would be made (we allowed 3 days after sale but usually paid same day). Other stuff dealt with who was responsible for what - transportation, marketing, preparation, etc.

I also had a seperate account for client funds. Not that it had any legal standing as it does in banking but I didn't want my operational funds to be polluted with client money. It did give people reassurance as we were able to consistently show the operation of the client money account to anyone who wanted to see.

In order to be transparent, the sales invoices showed the details of the vendor and buyer and all the numbers including our fee.

All cars were declared on our stock declaration and the vendors were always welcome to check with the broker that the cars were insured (the agreement also stated that we would insure the car).

Having said that, nothing would have stopped me from pocketing a little extra or delaying paying on completing a sale (other than my conscience). I would strongly recommend that people check out the accounts of any company they are thinking of placing their car with. Even if you don't know how to read a set of accounts there are very obvious clues to the health of a company in the public domain. Some of the big names mentioned above have hardly any cash in the bank or huge liabilities that make you wonder just how solvent they really are. Some can't even get their act together to post their accounts so rely on the "trick" of changing the accounting period by one day to grant a 3 month extension. Some don't even have a good handle on the value of their stock (look for a nice round number in this entry). Etc, etc

It's not difficult to do a small amount of due diligence....
I agree ,Even the honest ones that i have mentioned would not S.O.R cars if in a position to buy unless overstocked,

We all know that when buying puts you in a better position for bartering and improve your profit margin,

You are in charge of the whole transaction both buying and selling

I was just making a point of the dealers that i know have integrity if going the S,O.R route.

Drl22

787 posts

71 months

Saturday 9th January 2021
quotequote all
Just find a dealer who will let you keep the car, it’s much easier that way and you have full control.

rat rod

4,997 posts

71 months

Saturday 9th January 2021
quotequote all
Drl22 said:
Just find a dealer who will let you keep the car, it’s much easier that way and you have full control.
Good idea but not many would do that unless short of space, You would have to make that a provision of the deal otherwise

you wouldn't be interested. The problem with that is the buyer would want to talk to the owner rather than the seller

as he would be more informed so you might as well sell it yourself and save the commission,

You would have to go out for a few hours and leave them to it.

Think that's were Collecting Cars may be worth a try, car is still with you, you get paid direct by the purchaser,and the buyer

pays the commission, sounds to good to be true ,why didn't i think of that.

May give them a go on a reg number i'm thinking of selling, to test the water on a car at a later date.

Must add i am nothing to do with them and maybe it is to good to be true. I'll let you know

GT4RS

4,585 posts

203 months

Saturday 9th January 2021
quotequote all
IMI A said:
Try Tom at 911 Virgin. They'll charge you £4-5k as they need to warranty their cars and also make a profit. May seem odd giving to a Porsche dealer but they do sell other marques (have done so for me) and I imagine they will have a number of modern 911 cab owners seeking to perhaps upgrade to a Ferrari cab next. JZM maybe worth a call too I've used them too in the past. 911v seem to sell cars very quickly in my experience.
Jzm may not be any good as they get all there px cars underwritten by car independent traders as they don’t own stock. This means anyone looking to PX a car is going to get low balled from my experience.

ferdi p

1,521 posts

178 months

Saturday 9th January 2021
quotequote all
GT4RS said:
Jzm may not be any good as they get all there px cars underwritten by car independent traders as they don’t own stock. This means anyone looking to PX a car is going to get low balled from my experience.
JZM have a mix of owned & sor stock, dealt with them for years on many Porsche's & 1 McLaren, never put a foot wrong. Funnily enough, they've sold most of their stock in the past few weeks!!

BaronMcLaren

918 posts

155 months

Saturday 9th January 2021
quotequote all
Another +1 for Adam & Russ at JZM.

Sold a GT3RS & GT4 for me over the years, absolutely faultless and actually got me more than was intimated on the GT4.

They are far more open to alternative marques these days, wouldn’t have a problem sending a Ferrari or McLaren there for SOR.

dereksharpuk

179 posts

174 months

Sunday 10th January 2021
quotequote all
rat rod said:
Think that's were Collecting Cars may be worth a try, car is still with you, you get paid direct by the purchaser,and the buyer

pays the commission, sounds to good to be true ,why didn't i think of that.


Must add i am nothing to do with them and maybe it is to good to be true. I'll let you know
Yes, they seem almost too good to be true, but it is an auction site. More importantly, when I discussed the sale of my F430 with them they insisted on a very low reserve. That is great for them as it will probably mean a definite quick sale and their £6000 commission. Additionally, the deal is between the owner and the buyer, so no comeback on Collecting Cars. All they are is an introduction agency which will photograph & advertise your car for you. The car remains with the owner (which is good). The big downside is that your lovely car may be sold at a rock-bottom price, ie the reserve. They insisted the reserve for my car was £15K less than the minimum I wanted. So, despite the good points, I politely declined. The system is great for Collecting Cars and possibly good for the owner. Not so good for the buyer as it is effectively a private sale with all the problems in law that might occure. Caviat Emptor, let buyer beware.

rat rod

4,997 posts

71 months

Sunday 10th January 2021
quotequote all
dereksharpuk said:
rat rod said:
Think that's were Collecting Cars may be worth a try, car is still with you, you get paid direct by the purchaser,and the buyer

pays the commission, sounds to good to be true ,why didn't i think of that.


Must add i am nothing to do with them and maybe it is to good to be true. I'll let you know
Yes, they seem almost too good to be true, but it is an auction site. More importantly, when I discussed the sale of my F430 with them they insisted on a very low reserve. That is great for them as it will probably mean a definite quick sale and their £6000 commission. Additionally, the deal is between the owner and the buyer, so no comeback on Collecting Cars. All they are is an introduction agency which will photograph & advertise your car for you. The car remains with the owner (which is good). The big downside is that your lovely car may be sold at a rock-bottom price, ie the reserve. They insisted the reserve for my car was £15K less than the minimum I wanted. So, despite the good points, I politely declined. The system is great for Collecting Cars and possibly good for the owner. Not so good for the buyer as it is effectively a private sale with all the problems in law that might occure. Caviat Emptor, let buyer beware.
I can see why CC want you to put a low reserve on your 430 but in doing so they have lost you as a client,

£15k isn't that far away from their estimate and you would only need two bidders preferably three and they may of had a sale,

As it is neither you or them have gained,I think in their early days they would have taken your car for auction but

now are being a little picky as they always seem to a enough cars in the waiting room.

With the internet the only thing that worries me on classic and prestige cars are that if it falls flat on it's face ending with a low

bid people seem to have a photographic memory for unusual cars and may not help if you decide to advertise on classified after

the auction.

CC seem to be doing just ok before our first lock down but during and after seem to take off with the volume of entries and sales, a lot

of bored buyers seem to come out of the woodwork eager to part with their money, Think that window has passed and it's a little

harder now unless you have something rare .

I'm going to contact them tomorrow to see what's involved regarding my reg number ,at least i won't have to pay for photo's

what could go wrong.rolleyes


rat rod

4,997 posts

71 months

Sunday 10th January 2021
quotequote all

My dealings with Roger at" Kent High Performance Cars "go back to the early 90's, For what ever reason they changed the name to" The Ferrari

Centre ",Then more recently changed it back to KPC , Was told that it was for legal reasons as another company possibly out of the uk

had already been trading under that name . Not from the horses mouth so could be wrong.

Although the sales side has changed around over the years Roger is still at the helm and always found him hundred per-cent

trustworthy and wouldn't have a problem leaving any of my cars with them.




Edited by chris.mod on Monday 11th January 20:07

sjc

14,235 posts

276 months

Sunday 10th January 2021
quotequote all
I’ve dealt with this place for 30 years, and they’ve been trading for a 100....Give them a call and speak to Steve Kerridge.
https://www.kerridges.co.uk/stock/used-vehicles-in...

PJM986

50 posts

63 months

Sunday 10th January 2021
quotequote all
I know you may not want the perceived hassle of selling privately, but I sold my Cali 30 on Autotrader a few months ago in under 24 hours. I have sold most of my previous cars - DB9, DBS, 911s etc - privately and have never had a problem.

There are a lot of genuine private buyers out there with cash ready to go for cars that are priced well. For cars like this people tend to know what they want and are generally watching the market and checking the classifieds on a regular basis. There may be some timewasters out there, but it doesn't take too long to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Selling through a SOR dealer may be attractive for a number of reasons, which will vary from person to person, but the bottom line for me is how much ends up in my bank account once the car is gone. Several private sellers price their car marginally below (or in some cases slightly higher) what a dealer would sell the car for, which ignores the fact they are not offering finance/warranty or the same level of protection to the buyer, which imo is why they hang around. Make the car more attractive by pricing it a few £k under and it will likely sell quickly and still return you significantly more than you will get using a SOR dealer or part ex.

Take your time creating the advert by taking good photographs, reading several well-written adverts and plagiarising those that would attract you to buy a car, avoid wasting the reader's time with meaningless phrases such as: 'first to see will buy, best colour combination, reluctant sale, will be sad to see it go, etc.

rat rod

4,997 posts

71 months

Sunday 10th January 2021
quotequote all
PJM986 said:
I know you may not want the perceived hassle of selling privately, but I sold my Cali 30 on Autotrader a few months ago in under 24 hours. I have sold most of my previous cars - DB9, DBS, 911s etc - privately and have never had a problem.

There are a lot of genuine private buyers out there with cash ready to go for cars that are priced well. For cars like this people tend to know what they want and are generally watching the market and checking the classifieds on a regular basis. There may be some timewasters out there, but it doesn't take too long to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Selling through a SOR dealer may be attractive for a number of reasons, which will vary from person to person, but the bottom line for me is how much ends up in my bank account once the car is gone. Several private sellers price their car marginally below (or in some cases slightly higher) what a dealer would sell the car for, which ignores the fact they are not offering finance/warranty or the same level of protection to the buyer, which imo is why they hang around. Make the car more attractive by pricing it a few £k under and it will likely sell quickly and still return you significantly more than you will get using a SOR dealer or part ex.

Take your time creating the advert by taking good photographs, reading several well-written adverts and plagiarising those that would attract you to buy a car, avoid wasting the reader's time with meaningless phrases such as: 'first to see will buy, best colour combination, reluctant sale, will be sad to see it go, etc.
Good post, What you are saying makes a lot of sense, obviously you do your home work.