The £50K(ish!) 360 ...

[Ikemi]

I apologise in advance if this post turns into a ramble ...

I'm 34 years old and I've always had a soft spot for the Ferrari 360. I currently own a 'st-your-pants fast' modified Lotus Elise S1 and a F-Type V6S. I have flirted with the idea of selling both for a 981 Boxster S (although more likely a GTS), but noticed that 360 prices are now closer to £50K - and the sale of the Jaguar and Lotus would cover such purchasing costs! Man maths in action.

It would be my first Ferrari. It needs to be a manual. It needs to be any other colour than red. As much as I love convertibles, I don't mind either the coupe or Spider. I'm reading through Aldous Voice's blog, which is proving to be hugely helpful! A couple of questions though ...

1. How much do you realistically need to run a 360 per annum?
2. What are the most common, expensive issues with the 360?
3. Are they easy to sell on?

Essentially, it may be a case that I buy and run a 360 for one year, and then sell it on. I'll have driven one of my dream cars and I can always return to another 360 in the future. I may even keep it for longer, depending on how reliable it is. I do have a Honda (VTEC, yo!) as a backup car, but I've been reading that the 360 benefits from frequent usage, which is good to hear.

Some examples:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202010094...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008283...

I could increase budget to £55K. Am I mad?

[davek_964]

You're not mad at all. I sold one about 4 months ago, for about that budget which I'd owned for 6.5 years. Fabulous car, which I absolutely loved - highly recommend them.

1. How much do you realistically need to run a 360 per annum?

Mine was generally pretty reliable - for general servicing I think £2k a year covered most years for me, but you will occasionally need to add brakes, tyres etc - I think £3k a year would cover most years very easily and mine certainly averaged less than that most years quite easily.

2. What are the most common, expensive issues with the 360?

The big one is heat exchanger in the gearbox which will cost you many thousands to sort out.
Ball joints don't last long and will cost you a few thousand to sort out - I only had them done once in 15k miles.
Cam variator is a known design fault - and even the modified part fails (ask me how I know.....). It's a rare failure though, but expensive to fix (top end rebuild, new valves)

3. Are they easy to sell on?

If priced sensibly, yes. Mine sold pretty quickly - it was priced a little low, but sensibly.

[MDL111]

Just to add to the above, the annual costs are also luck and mileage driven as well as if you have to go to an official dealer or have access to a cheap(ish) independent garage (seems obvious I know). I can say with certainty that none of my Ferraris has averaged out at 2k per year service/repair costs over more than 125k km between them

Edit: if you only plan to own it for one year, I would try to get 6-12 months warranty thrown in from a dealer plus a fresh service (and anything else a PPI might throw up) and you should be golden unless you are rather unlucky. Ideally the next service isn’t a big one, as I assume you will have to pay for that/take it off the sale price

Edited by MDL111 on Wednesday 28th October 07:12

[jtremlett]

MDL111 said:

...I can say with certainty that none of my Ferraris has averaged out at 2k per year service/repair costs over more than 125k km between them ...

Can you clarify that? What are you saying they have averaged out at?

[MDL111]

jtremlett said:

MDL111 said:

...I can say with certainty that none of my Ferraris has averaged out at 2k per year service/repair costs over more than 125k km between them ...

Can you clarify that? What are you saying they have averaged out at?

I’ll try to calculate it and update (I don’t have most of the info anymore, so will involve some guesswork), but basically more than 2k due to driving the cars a lot more than most - I think you need to look at some kind of mileage adjusted costs to make it more meaningful

[voicey]

I have inspected that yellow car - please call me before parting with your money.

If you were looking for a spider then one of my customers is thinking of getting out and it would be similar money (with an excellent maintenance record). Mods: This is not an advert. I am no longer in the business of selling cars, just fixing them. I would not be part of any deal other than to put two people in touch for zero commission.

[jtremlett]

MDL111 said:

jtremlett said:

MDL111 said:

...I can say with certainty that none of my Ferraris has averaged out at 2k per year service/repair costs over more than 125k km between them ...

Can you clarify that? What are you saying they have averaged out at?

I’ll try to calculate it and update (I don’t have most of the info anymore, so will involve some guesswork), but basically more than 2k due to driving the cars a lot more than most - I think you need to look at some kind of mileage adjusted costs to make it more meaningful

Thanks, I wasn't clear if you were meaning more or less. I'm too lazy to work mine out but I'm pretty sure it is a little bit less than 2k per year per car for my 20 years (can't believe it is that long!) of Ferrari ownership.

[davek_964]

MDL111 said:

I’ll try to calculate it and update (I don’t have most of the info anymore, so will involve some guesswork), but basically more than 2k due to driving the cars a lot more than most - I think you need to look at some kind of mileage adjusted costs to make it more meaningful

What kind of annual mileage?

My figures are based on an average of about 2.5k miles a year over 6.5 years, but with a fair bit of variation (highest was 4k miles one year).

[MDL111]

As I said, I don't mean to imply that the average for everybody will be a lot higher than 2k, but it really depends on a few factors incl. mileage and luck. Also none of the cars is a 360, but you can hopefully approximate from this. I hope it is at least helpful to somebody, was a lot of work (and rather depressing) - at least it forced me to try to find as many invoices as I can [probably still missing a couple]

Car 1: 355 Berlinetta - I don't have the costs as it was a long time ago (and I no longer own the car), but the service items below. Ownership period c. 2.5 years - from memory it was c. GBP 6-7k p.a.

31/07/09 - 31,152 miles: Verdi new alternator, new radio
03/10/09 - 33,598 miles: Verdi o/s exhaust manifold
12/10/09 - 33,876 miles: Verdi replace boot kit
05/11/09 - 34,183 miles: Verdi new clutch
09/04/10 - 37,449 miles: Verdi n/s exhaust manifold
04/08/10 - 39,582 miles: Verdi annual service
15/09/10 - 40,000 miles: Prestige Autocare (Paul Coster) MOT, replace front brake pads
01/03/11 - 44,000 miles: ATS new n/s radiator (they broke it when balancing a wheel)
15/06/11 - 48,786 miles: Prestige Autocare 50k service including cam belts, replace oil cooler, replace o/s radiator, new alternator, repaint front bumper / o/s and n/s side skirts, refurbish 4x wheels, repaint airboxes/undertrays/intakes, full valet including engine bay
10/11/11 - 50,000 miles: Prestige Autocare New clutch and test pipes

Car 2: 430 Scuderia, bought at c. 51k km in 2017 [had 2 years warranty and some work was covered by that, no invoices for warranty work] - probably averages at c. €11-13k p.a. depending on what the service this month costs. all work done at main dealer

March 2018 - [ ]k km - tyres - €1.4k
June 2018 - 59.8km - brake pads front and rear, new exhaust silencer - €5.8k
November 2018 - 64.6k - service - €3.3k
March 2019 - 64.6k km - windshield, front brake pads - €6.5k
June 2019 - 67.3k - new tyres - c. €1.6k
January 2020 - 68.8k km - service, manifold left/right, new exhaust silencer (yes indeed the second one in 1.5 years) - €12.6k
October 2020 - [c. 70]k km - service €[ ]

Car 3 - FF - bought with c. 12k km in 2015 (had 2 years warranty, covered 2x gearbox repairs) and now at c. 79k. Until 2018 service was included in service pack, needed brake pads once I think and a few small invoices, but mainly warranty extension - probably averages at c. €3.3-3.5k. all work done at main dealer

Missing invoices prior to 2019
March 2017 - [ ]k km - warranty extension - c.€4.5k
March 2018 - [ ]k km - warranty extension - c.€4.5k
March 2019 - 68k km - change tyres (winter to summer), warranty, annual service - €5.6k
May 2020 - 78.9k km - change tyres, warranty, annual service - €5.2k

Car 4 - 430 Challenge bought this year with c. 12k km [3 track days, less than 1k km total]

July 2020 - n/a - car check, oil change, right manifold, 4x brake discs and pads, new slicks - €13k
August 2020 - n/a - post TD check, fuel filler, Trofeo R tyres - €4.1k

[dereksharpuk]

Ikemi said:

I apologise in advance if this post turns into a ramble ...

1. How much do you realistically need to run a 360 per annum?
2. What are the most common, expensive issues with the 360?
3. Are they easy to sell on?

I could increase budget to £55K. Am I mad?

I used to buy Porsches but Porsche is now a volume manufacturer and, for me at least, not special. I went from a 911 to a new 360 and now have owned two x 360 & 3 x 430. Whereas I lost a Kings Ransom buying & selling Porsches (13), I have never lost much with Ferrari. OK, times under Covid are different at present and I'm sure there are many who have lost a packet with 488s. But 360s are a safe bet in the long run. If you plan to keep your 360 for just a year, you will lose. Whatever, plan on at least a £2000 a year to cover insurance, RFL and service, more if you drive it a lot or are unlucky. Nothing is easy to sell on at present.

By the way, mileage is not a big problem with Ferraris as long as they have been serviced properly. Better to buy one at 60,000 miles with everything replaced, than one with 40,000 miles needing a lot done. The yellow one looks a good bet. High miles = cheap, but less easy to sell.

Edited by dereksharpuk on Wednesday 28th October 09:47

Edited by dereksharpuk on Wednesday 28th October 09:48

[sbk1972]

Wow,

March 2019 - 64.6k km - windshield, front brake pads - €6.5k 6.5k ? Good god.

I noticed that changing pads is costly. Where is the cost, is it with the pads ? Could you change the pads yourself ?

I subscribe to Ratarrosa on YouTube and watching his videos shows that these are just cars normal, typical mechnically setups, nuts and bolts and extremely doable from a home DIY point of view. How much do Ferrari dealers charge per an hour ? All I see is a Ferrari tax, car is expensive so parts / labour will be too.

[MDL111]

sbk1972 said:

Wow,

March 2019 - 64.6k km - windshield, front brake pads - €6.5k 6.5k ? Good god.

I noticed that changing pads is costly. Where is the cost, is it with the pads ? Could you change the pads yourself ?

I subscribe to Ratarrosa on YouTube and watching his videos shows that these are just cars normal, typical mechnically setups, nuts and bolts and extremely doable from a home DIY point of view. How much do Ferrari dealers charge per an hour ? All I see is a Ferrari tax, car is expensive so parts / labour will be too.

I know, nearly fell off my chair when they quoted for that - I think the windshield cost c 2-2.5k and then 10 hours of work [I did ask at a carglass type shop and they wanted to charge even more, so not necessarily Ferrari overcharging in that instance]. The stone flew into the windshield when I was following a GT3 to closely on track - stupid (and expensive) mistake on my part

a set of front brake pads for the Scuderia costs €800 plus VAT. I am sure you could change them yourself (but I can't / am not mechanically inclined - I can change my wheels at the track and that's about as far as my skills go)

my dealer charges €159 plus VAT per hour

[MDL111]

dereksharpuk said:

Ikemi said:

I apologise in advance if this post turns into a ramble ...

1. How much do you realistically need to run a 360 per annum?
2. What are the most common, expensive issues with the 360?
3. Are they easy to sell on?

I could increase budget to £55K. Am I mad?

I used to buy Porsches but Porsche is now a volume manufacturer and, for me at least, not special. I went from a 911 to a new 360 and now have owned two x 360 & 3 x 430. Whereas I lost a Kings Ransom buying & selling Porsches (13), I have never lost much with Ferrari. OK, times under Covid are different at present and I'm sure there are many who have lost a packet with 488s. But 360s are a safe bet in the long run. If you plan to keep your 360 for just a year, you will lose. Whatever, plan on at least a £2000 a year to cover insurance, RFL and service, more if you drive it a lot or are unlucky. Nothing is easy to sell on at present.

By the way, mileage is not a big problem with Ferraris as long as they have been serviced properly. Better to buy one at 60,000 miles with everything replaced, than one with 40,000 miles needing a lot done. The yellow one looks a good bet. High miles = cheap, but less easy to sell.

Edited by dereksharpuk on Wednesday 28th October 09:47

Edited by dereksharpuk on Wednesday 28th October 09:48

I agree that miles are not an issue for these cars, but if you want to buy and sell within a relatively short time period, I would pay a premium for low(ish) miles - Ferrari buyers are among the most fickle I have ever seen and a very large percentage of the buyer universe does not buy high mileage cars imo (many not even at disproportionate discounts). I told a dealer that my Scuderia is on 70k km and there was lots of sucking air threw teeth, mutterings about not sellable etc ....
When I tried to sell my 355 in the UK privately for c. GBP 30k [believe it was the cheapest on the market], there were so many effin timewasters - uh it has a scratch in the bumper, that button looks worn etc etc - just sold it back to the supplying dealer in the end - life is too short

[MDL111]

looks like my car has either not been driven since I sold it in 2011 or the odo sensor fell off again (actually happened to me on my way to Calais once and it did not count up the miles for c. 50 miles) - buy on condition, the mileage number on an older Ferrari is quite possibly an "adjusted" figure

https://www.check-mot.service.gov.uk/?_ga=2.107344...

[sbk1972]

Fair play to you. :-) I do like how you've obviously noted down all the costs etc. I do that myself, I like to keep organised accounts, notes, etc.

You've obviously had several of these cars, so taking costs, ownership, etc, are they worth it ? My neighbour has a 458, lovely looking thing but I always question whether the ownership challenges vs smiles per a mile is worth while. Plus, now that Audi owns Lambo, I think they still do, would owning a lambo be a cheaper / lower cost of ownership due to the Audi connection / parts ?

I come from the era where a white Astra van was universally recognised as the fastest thing on the road :-), would you therefore getiing a cheaper track slag give you the some track `high` ? perhaps racing a Mazda MX3 ? Or Toyota MR2 ?

[davek_964]

sbk1972 said:

I noticed that changing pads is costly. Where is the cost, is it with the pads ? Could you change the pads yourself ?

Changing pads (and discs) is easy on a 360 and the cost of the parts is not excessive.

(My servicing was all indy - I was using QV in Windsor for the last few years. A minor was ~£700 and a major about £1k although there was usually a few hundred extra at each service. Nothing too significant though.

[anonymous-user]

sbk1972 said:

Wow,

March 2019 - 64.6k km - windshield, front brake pads - €6.5k 6.5k ? Good god.

I noticed that changing pads is costly. Where is the cost, is it with the pads ? Could you change the pads yourself ?

I subscribe to Ratarrosa on YouTube and watching his videos shows that these are just cars normal, typical mechnically setups, nuts and bolts and extremely doable from a home DIY point of view. How much do Ferrari dealers charge per an hour ? All I see is a Ferrari tax, car is expensive so parts / labour will be too.

Sounds like you're happy to pick up a spanner and watch YouTube, you should also join something like Club Scuderia for tech advice.

360 windscreen from Eurospares is £1700 for an OEM, 800 for a pattern - it is after all a consumable. £100 to fit - nothing special. https://www.eurospares.co.uk/parts/ferrari/360-mod...

New rotors are £70, pads anything from £50 to £250 an axle and will take you an hour to change yourself. http://www.superformance.co.uk/360/brakes.html

Ball joints are £250 a corner, plus an afternoon of your time. http://www.superformance.co.uk/360/suspension.html

And so on.

Mod: No affiliation to any supplier, just supplying advice.

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 28th October 12:50

[MDL111]

sbk1972 said:

Fair play to you. :-) I do like how you've obviously noted down all the costs etc. I do that myself, I like to keep organised accounts, notes, etc.

You've obviously had several of these cars, so taking costs, ownership, etc, are they worth it ? My neighbour has a 458, lovely looking thing but I always question whether the ownership challenges vs smiles per a mile is worth while. Plus, now that Audi owns Lambo, I think they still do, would owning a lambo be a cheaper / lower cost of ownership due to the Audi connection / parts ?

I come from the era where a white Astra van was universally recognised as the fastest thing on the road :-), would you therefore getiing a cheaper track slag give you the some track `high` ? perhaps racing a Mazda MX3 ? Or Toyota MR2 ?

hah, no I have only once before tried to add up some costs (also for a pistonheads thread), I try not to keep track of them as otherwise I might just sell the cars... went through my emails just now and added up the ones I could find.

I think the cars are worth it, I only sold the 355 because I had lost my job [and I waited as long as I possibly could - plus did a few spectacular road trips - before admitting defeat and selling it...].

I might eventually sell the Scuderia as I prefer driving manual cars for fun on the road and I doubt I will track it much as the Challenge is better suited (and hopefully cheaper to run). I can't really opine on track cars as I have not done enough track days in my life (and not driven enough different cars on track) - my Clio was fun, but felt too slow on track. The Scuderia is great and a lot of fun, esp. once I had the geo changed to a more track friendly setup. The Challenge is great as well, but I am still learning how to drive that (Covid didn't really help in that respect this year).

[MDL111]

the silver car in the OP looks pretty good to me - sounds like quite a lot of work done
Ask for all the invoices and full service history as an initial step.
Definitely get a PPI by somebody like voicey done to go in with eyes open.
I think if the car checks out, then even with the relatively (Ferrari terms) high mileage, this might not be a bad idea, but be prepared to sell it for less in 12 months.

Edit: I think I mis-read the dealer cost sentence - doesn't sound like he is a car dealer

Edited by MDL111 on Wednesday 28th October 10:36

[jtremlett]

MDL111 said:

As I said, I don't mean to imply that the average for everybody will be a lot higher than 2k...

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to do that. Some extraordinary numbers there though. I can't compare like for like, not having the same cars but I do think a lot of that cost is main dealer prices. My experience is not that main dealers are that much more expensive per hour or for any specific job they are doing but rather that they recommend you doing so much more. I have owned one Ferrari for 20 years and the other for 12 and, so far, the highest bill has been about £2.5k. I do have a copy of a main dealer invoice for my 550 from before I owned it for (from memory) £7.5k. I should add that my cars are not breaking down every five minutes and nor am I skimping on getting things done.