Potential 360 Modena Purchase

[blueg33]

Alarm bells ringing?........

I have seen a 360 for sale with a very well regarded ipecialist. The car will come with an in house warranty and has just been serviced by them with all the usual stuff and some extras like Hills ball joints etc done

I have mentioned that I would like a PPI and they have baulked at the idea, saying that they know these cars inside out, they are highly regarded (they really are) so I should be content with their say that its ok.

If this was a little known outfit, I would run a mile, but is this different?

[davek_964]

I think it's odd that they would object to PPI. Having said that, there are a few places I'd trust.

If you PM me the dealer, I'll tell you whether it's one of them.

[blueg33]

davek_964 said:

I think it's odd that they would object to PPI. Having said that, there are a few places I'd trust.

If you PM me the dealer, I'll tell you whether it's one of them.

PM sent

[dereksharpuk]

I assume that by PPI you mean an independent inspection. Personally, if that was not allowed or they tried to talk you out of it, I would walk away. Two years ago I purchased a used F430 Spider and insisted that my local Ferrari dealership inspect it and warranty it. The Independent garage eventually agreed to pay for any essential repairs (if any faults found), but my original discount would be void. I accepted. Just as well as quite a bit of minor works was required, tyres, ball joints, hood adjustment etc. Purchase from an Independent with a short warranty (3 months) is a gamble, unless you purchase at a great price, take a risk and ensure you have some funds for possibly repairs

[cgt2]

Makes no sense at all. They might find it inconvenient transporting the car for a PPI but no reason at all to outright refuse.

[blueg33]

dereksharpuk said:

I assume that by PPI you mean an independent inspection. Personally, if that was not allowed or they tried to talk you out of it, I would walk away. Two years ago I purchased a used F430 Spider and insisted that my local Ferrari dealership inspect it and warranty it. The Independent garage eventually agreed to pay for any essential repairs (if any faults found), but my original discount would be void. I accepted. Just as well as quite a bit of minor works was required, tyres, ball joints, hood adjustment etc. Purchase from an Independent with a short warranty (3 months) is a gamble, unless you purchase at a great price, take a risk and ensure you have some funds for possibly repairs

Oddly though, this Indy is probably more highly regarded than a Ferrari dealer and if I was buying from a Ferrari dealer I would likely use them for the inspection.

Hence the quandary

[paul0843]

blueg33 said:

dereksharpuk said:

I assume that by PPI you mean an independent inspection. Personally, if that was not allowed or they tried to talk you out of it, I would walk away. Two years ago I purchased a used F430 Spider and insisted that my local Ferrari dealership inspect it and warranty it. The Independent garage eventually agreed to pay for any essential repairs (if any faults found), but my original discount would be void. I accepted. Just as well as quite a bit of minor works was required, tyres, ball joints, hood adjustment etc. Purchase from an Independent with a short warranty (3 months) is a gamble, unless you purchase at a great price, take a risk and ensure you have some funds for possibly repairs

Oddly though, this Indy is probably more highly regarded than a Ferrari dealer and if I was buying from a Ferrari dealer I would likely use them for the inspection.

Hence the quandary

Maybe they are so confident in what they do ,and also have a steady stream of customers.
Not agreeing with it,but their attitude seems to be we are good at what we do,either trust us or walk away.
Paul

[Djit]

I can’t see their rationale for refusing if you are covering the cost. If they are digging in I would suggest you do the same and if they do not yield, walk away.

You’ve gone to them for their reputation, you like the look of the car and now you want professional independent verification it’s a good car to complete the purchase.

Sure they can roll their eyes at the suggestion (which is a little arrogant considering it’s your money) but I don’t understand why they would refuse, unless they are not that confident in the car for some reason. Why should the gamble be on your side?

[fridaypassion]

I'm in a similar position on the other side of the fence as an indie dealer(nothing to do with Ferrari) . Occasionally I get asked if I can get a PPI done and it is a little irritating given that I know I will have done my job well. Having another outfit look over a car will always result in a list of stuff that may or may not really require action.

My rule for PPIs is that anyone is now than welcome to come to me to do one but if I need to put 3 or 4 hours aside to travel somewhere is £85+ vat per hour for my time and also that the results of a PPI are not used to try to renegotiate the price. It's rare anyone bothers after that.

There are a couple of reasons PPIs aren't as important as they used to be. If buying from a proper specialist we care about our reputations. My 5 star google/ Facebook is certainly a source of pride as a lot of traders disable particularly Google reviews as its extremely hard to maintain and easy to get a right slagging off. The second reason is that you are so loaded with consumer rights of there's anything wrong with the car the dealer is going to fix it. Stick with someone reputable and they should follow through on any problems.

I would also caution that a potential customer who's wanting a PPI and panicking about every last detail and generally being a bit pushy or looks like might be a headache for the dealer will result in a no sale. It does cut both ways and sometimes for us it's the deals we don't do are the smart ones. I'm not suggesting the OP is a problem customer but just a heads up as to how we approach deals. With specialist cars you need people you can work with.

PS advice would be completely different if it was a car from a none specialist!

[SFTWend]

I think you have raised an interesting topic, which I will be following as I may be buying another Ferrari at some stage. Good points made from bother seller and buyers perspective and I can appreciate the time and cost implications to a dealer if they have to take the car to the "inspector" rather than the car be assessed at the sellers premises.

I suggest any 360 will reveal a list of issues required to make it spot on, given their age, and whilst each one might be minor they will still add up. Doesn't mean the car isn't well prepared for sale but the inspection gives you comfort and an informed decision on total purchase cost. Have you read Voicey's website?

Personally I think I would insist on an independent inspection after my experience with a F355 purchase in the past. I bought from what was/is certainly considered one of the top Ferrari specialists in the country, who claimed they prepared all their cars to near concourse standards. I paid top price based on this reputation but I had a range of problems with the car, some of which quickly became evident on the drive home. I couldn't just pop back to the dealer given distance from home and their attitude meant nothing much got sorted under their 3 month in house warranty.

Happy to share who I bought from via PM if you like and I would be interested in who is selling the 360.

Edited by SFTWend on Tuesday 4th August 08:28

[FezSpider]

I have always found it frustrating that posters cant just say the name of what ever specialist or dealer there talking about. I know its forum rules but its bkss imo.
Especially when it could potentially warn future customers of these companies.

[PompeyReece]

FezSpider said:

I have always found it frustrating that posters cant just say the name of what ever specialist or dealer there talking about. I know its forum rules but its bkss imo.
Especially when it could potentially warn future customers of these companies.

True but likewise it’s very easy, all too easy, for someone with a grudge to make up rumours that are totally bks which then impact on someone’s reputation. Additionally that rumour could appear in search results for some time to come, causing further damage.

Also there are always two sides to every story so what you read on here is unlikely to be the whole story. I’m in no way referring to the OP here BTW!

[blueg33]

FezSpider said:

I have always found it frustrating that posters cant just say the name of what ever specialist or dealer there talking about. I know its forum rules but its bkss imo.
Especially when it could potentially warn future customers of these companies.

Think it through

Dealers read these pages, it could impact on my deal

If I am interested in a car, I don't want to advertise to the world that I think its a good one until I have a deal or have rejected it

PH Rules are relevant too

[FezSpider]

Thought it through for years, yep, it's still bkss

[Bebs]

Difficult to comment specifically without knowing which independent it is.
There’s a handful I would trust. If they regularly sell and service 360/430 I would be less concerned but definitely go through the service history, and have a detailed look at what was actually carried out at the recent service. The fact that they have replaced ball joints with Hill Engineering parts is a good sign

[Lee Jones Jnr]

There are plenty of 360s around, if you want an inspection and they won't allow one just find another.
Is the objection to an inspection or to an inspection by whomever you have suggested? Perhaps they just don't trust a particular outfit?

[Lee Jones Jnr]

blueg33 said:

Oddly though, this Indy is probably more highly regarded than a Ferrari dealer and if I was buying from a Ferrari dealer I would likely use them for the inspection.

Hence the quandary

Thats interesting, it wouldn't even cross my mind to have a PPI done at a main dealer.

[blueg33]

Lee Jones Jnr said:

blueg33 said:

Oddly though, this Indy is probably more highly regarded than a Ferrari dealer and if I was buying from a Ferrari dealer I would likely use them for the inspection.

Hence the quandary

Thats interesting, it wouldn't even cross my mind to have a PPI done at a main dealer.

Some of the main dealer cars have gappy histories. One that was on my list has only had 10 oil changes in 20 years

[Slippydiff]

fridaypassion said:

I'm in a similar position on the other side of the fence as an indie dealer(nothing to do with Ferrari) . Occasionally I get asked if I can get a PPI done and it is a little irritating given that I know I will have done my job well. Having another outfit look over a car will always result in a list of stuff that may or may not really require action.

My rule for PPIs is that anyone is now than welcome to come to me to do one but if I need to put 3 or 4 hours aside to travel somewhere is £85+ vat per hour for my time and also that the results of a PPI are not used to try to renegotiate the price. It's rare anyone bothers after that.

There are a couple of reasons PPIs aren't as important as they used to be. If buying from a proper specialist we care about our reputations. My 5 star google/ Facebook is certainly a source of pride as a lot of traders disable particularly Google reviews as its extremely hard to maintain and easy to get a right slagging off. The second reason is that you are so loaded with consumer rights of there's anything wrong with the car the dealer is going to fix it. Stick with someone reputable and they should follow through on any problems.

I would also caution that a potential customer who's wanting a PPI and panicking about every last detail and generally being a bit pushy or looks like might be a headache for the dealer will result in a no sale. It does cut both ways and sometimes for us it's the deals we don't do are the smart ones. I'm not suggesting the OP is a problem customer but just a heads up as to how we approach deals. With specialist cars you need people you can work with.

PS advice would be completely different if it was a car from a none specialist!

If I was serious I'd expect someone selling a car privately to take it to my chosen place of inspection (or allow the inspection to take place on their drive). However I wouldn't expect a dealer to take a car anywhere for an inspection, on the contrary, I'd expect them to make a space (and ideally a ramp) available for a couple of hours in their workshop. If they weren't prepared to allow that, I'd walk away.

Some genuine points/questions below :

If as you state "you've done your job well", surely you'd have nothing to fear from any PPI ?

"Potential customers panicking about every last detail" ? Is that not their prerogative ? I imagine your standards were pretty rigorous when you recently purchased your 458 ? And having read numerous comments on this very forum from individuals buying/rejecting cars for varying reasons, I wonder would many/most shy away from buying a Ferrari off you on the basis of your comments above.
I wonder do potential/existing Lotus purchasers differ in what they're prepared to accept in the way of preparation standards when compared with the typical Ferrari purchaser ?

[fridaypassion]

Slippydiff said:

If I was serious I'd expect someone selling a car privately to take it to my chosen place of inspection (or allow the inspection to take place on their drive). However I wouldn't expect a dealer to take a car anywhere for an inspection, on the contrary, I'd expect them to make a space (and ideally a ramp) available for a couple of hours in their workshop. If they weren't prepared to allow that, I'd walk away.

Some genuine points/questions below :

If as you state "you've done your job well", surely you'd have nothing to fear from any PPI ?

"Potential customers panicking about every last detail" ? Is that not their prerogative ? I imagine your standards were pretty rigorous when you recently purchased your 458 ? And having read numerous comments on this very forum from individuals buying/rejecting cars for varying reasons, I wonder would many/most shy away from buying a Ferrari off you on the basis of your comments above.
I wonder do potential/existing Lotus purchasers differ in what they're prepared to accept in the way of preparation standards when compared with the typical Ferrari purchaser ?

I would have no fear of a PPI but it's the time it takes to sort out. As I say I always offer for people to send someone here to my workshop but its costs the potential buyer then so it does put off people that in reality are probably just looking for an excuse not to buy. For everyone who's really panicky there are always 5 guys behind you in the queue that trust you/know their rights or a mix of the two.

Do you know what my process of buying the 458 was? I had a good look over the one GC had and would have had no problem buying from them. It was every bit as well prepped as the JCT car I bought. From either outfit if there's anything wrong with it they are fixing it within 3 months aren't they so why bother with a PPI? I'm sure if there was a fundamental issue with the car it will become apparent in 3 months of driving about. I appreciate I might have a better eye than most buyers in terms of looking at things myself but the backup is the same for any punter. I did enquire about getting JCT to PPI the GC car and it was about a grand and 6 weeks wait so that idea got binned! As it happend I did have an issue (brakes) it went straight back to JCT with no problem. In the end I sorted it myself but at least I know there was no battle to get stuff looked at.

Obviously the Lotus stuff is a totally different category of car to a Ferrari in terms of prep. For example its very rare for me to paint a front end. I think with our normal stuff people want the reassurance that its all straight/accident free and the cosmetics aren't as important as they are at £130k plus where I think people are probably rightly looking for something more close to perfection. If I had 20k margin over every car all mine would be perfect too! I think I do as good a job as I can with the margins we have to work with and most people are reasonable about expectations. We can have some damn good 15k car in though! If I was selling Ferraris my business would be completely different but if I had the same standing in the F world as I have worked for within the Lotus stuff I would still operate the policy on PPIs the same. Your guy comes to us or charge whatever hourly rate the workshop runs at for half a day of someones time to run it somewhere. I would not accept having to accommodate PPIs as a cost of sale for the business to bare.

Again just to reiterate this is the approach I would take with a very well regarded indie. The advise would be the opposite for anyone who had anything but a perfect rep! Given that most good indies will be far better at what they do than a franchised dealer should you have a main dealer car PPI'd

As a side note my car would NOT have passed a PPI despite coming from a main dealer.......