360 story and engine rebuild
Discussion
Greetings all,
In 2002 I purchased a very low mileage 360 Modena after owning a number of TVRs. I still own that 360 and have done 105,000 miles in it over the past 17 years. The car has been used for daily commuting in London over a 3 year period come rain or shine, a large number of road trips, track days, events and general holiday trips - in short - I have used it pretty much every day for everything, including supermarket shopping. I have always serviced the car regularly and stayed on top of maintenance - of which all of has been consumables.. yes, nothing major has had to be replaced and the car has never ever let me down, a testament to Ferrari build quality providing these cars get looked after, and more importantly, driven on a regular basis.
I will kick off with some photos, the ones below were taken 2 years ago on a road trip to Spain:
[url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/ghuiZBIL[/url]
In late summer of this year I purchased a Maserati Granturismo S - MC shift to replace my wifes 996:
The GTS needed a certain amount of work carrying out to bring it up to my required standard mechanically so I took it down to Aldous at AV Engineering for the work and at the same time brought the 360 in for a cambelt service after a year in storage whilst refurbishing our house.
- to be continued
In 2002 I purchased a very low mileage 360 Modena after owning a number of TVRs. I still own that 360 and have done 105,000 miles in it over the past 17 years. The car has been used for daily commuting in London over a 3 year period come rain or shine, a large number of road trips, track days, events and general holiday trips - in short - I have used it pretty much every day for everything, including supermarket shopping. I have always serviced the car regularly and stayed on top of maintenance - of which all of has been consumables.. yes, nothing major has had to be replaced and the car has never ever let me down, a testament to Ferrari build quality providing these cars get looked after, and more importantly, driven on a regular basis.
I will kick off with some photos, the ones below were taken 2 years ago on a road trip to Spain:
[url]|https://thumbsnap.com/ghuiZBIL[/url]In late summer of this year I purchased a Maserati Granturismo S - MC shift to replace my wifes 996:
The GTS needed a certain amount of work carrying out to bring it up to my required standard mechanically so I took it down to Aldous at AV Engineering for the work and at the same time brought the 360 in for a cambelt service after a year in storage whilst refurbishing our house.
- to be continued
AV Engineering subsequently noticed an oil leak from the clutch bell housing and investigated further taking the gearbox off:
The cause of the oil leak was quickly discovered by AV.. an incorrect rear main seal had been fitted previously by another service center rather than the correct OEM seal which incidentially is only a £17 part..
Unfortunately the bad news didn't end there - because the incorrect rear main seal was effectively 1.5 mm thicker, without the correct rubber flange which the OEM seal has and had been forced into place anyway, the outcome over some mileage had been a large score mark on the Crank shaft itself meaning a new correct OEM seal would now not be able to stop oil leaking past.. you can clearly see the score line on the photo below:
To be continued
The cause of the oil leak was quickly discovered by AV.. an incorrect rear main seal had been fitted previously by another service center rather than the correct OEM seal which incidentially is only a £17 part..
Unfortunately the bad news didn't end there - because the incorrect rear main seal was effectively 1.5 mm thicker, without the correct rubber flange which the OEM seal has and had been forced into place anyway, the outcome over some mileage had been a large score mark on the Crank shaft itself meaning a new correct OEM seal would now not be able to stop oil leaking past.. you can clearly see the score line on the photo below:
To be continued
The next question is 'what on earth do we do now'
Following discussions down at AV when I collected the GTS, we decided to pull the engine out, given the high mileage, strip it down completely and try to purchase a decent used crank and replace it.. all due to a £17 OEM part having been replaced with a cheaper alternative. The car is clearly a keeper and although costly, I felt it was worth lavishing the TLC on the car and correct this now rather expensive fault.
AV immediately set out removing the engine:
Strip down commences:
Another close up of the crank score mark:
Following discussions down at AV when I collected the GTS, we decided to pull the engine out, given the high mileage, strip it down completely and try to purchase a decent used crank and replace it.. all due to a £17 OEM part having been replaced with a cheaper alternative. The car is clearly a keeper and although costly, I felt it was worth lavishing the TLC on the car and correct this now rather expensive fault.
AV immediately set out removing the engine:
Strip down commences:
Another close up of the crank score mark:
Unfortunately further bad news were to appear. On stripping the engine apart AV found a number of small metal pieces in and around the sump:
These metal pieces appeared to have caused marks and damage to the underside of some of the pistons:
A score mark was also found on cylinder bore no 8:
The engine was quickly moved up into AV's newly refurbished engine room where further inspections were carried out. The big question was obviously where these metal bits had originated from..
This issue was also quickly discovered by the AV team.. on removing the oil pump and taking it apart the smoking gun had shown itself.. one of the wheels had a large chunk of metal missing!
To be continued
These metal pieces appeared to have caused marks and damage to the underside of some of the pistons:
A score mark was also found on cylinder bore no 8:
The engine was quickly moved up into AV's newly refurbished engine room where further inspections were carried out. The big question was obviously where these metal bits had originated from..
This issue was also quickly discovered by the AV team.. on removing the oil pump and taking it apart the smoking gun had shown itself.. one of the wheels had a large chunk of metal missing!
To be continued
Luckily these replacement oil pump wheels are available to purchase for a 360 unlike a 430 where a new £2000 oil pump is required.. wow some good news at last!!
AV continued to investigate, measure up, inspect and subsequently have come to the decision that the engine is in remarkably good health given the very high mileage and have managed to polish out the score mark on cylinder no 8, what a relief:
We originally feared all valve seats would have to be replaced also, due to the mileage but as it turns out only the 16 exhaust valve guides need replacing. Further good news have recently come my way in that the pistons are sound despite the small marks:
To further bring a smile to my face - after all the devastating news - I received a call from AV the other day that they had taken the Crank to Hill Engineering who are confident the can machine the score mark down and still remain within tolerance of the OEM rear main seal - phew.. its not easy sourcing a used crank in good condition and a new crank is £6500 from the factory.
Clearly if the crank had not been scored we would not now know about the damaged oil pump wheel and the floating metal pieces so I suppose all in all it was just as well we decided to strip the engine down.. on reflection it could have been much much worse...
To be continued
AV continued to investigate, measure up, inspect and subsequently have come to the decision that the engine is in remarkably good health given the very high mileage and have managed to polish out the score mark on cylinder no 8, what a relief:
We originally feared all valve seats would have to be replaced also, due to the mileage but as it turns out only the 16 exhaust valve guides need replacing. Further good news have recently come my way in that the pistons are sound despite the small marks:
To further bring a smile to my face - after all the devastating news - I received a call from AV the other day that they had taken the Crank to Hill Engineering who are confident the can machine the score mark down and still remain within tolerance of the OEM rear main seal - phew.. its not easy sourcing a used crank in good condition and a new crank is £6500 from the factory.
Clearly if the crank had not been scored we would not now know about the damaged oil pump wheel and the floating metal pieces so I suppose all in all it was just as well we decided to strip the engine down.. on reflection it could have been much much worse...
To be continued
The crankshaft is back from Hill Engineering and they have indeed managed to polish out all the score marks and remain within OEM seal tolerance. Nice and shiny now:
Engine block cleaned up:
Heads are back after skimming and everything is going back together nicely.
The oil pump, with the damaged wheel causing the metal pieces found in the sump, has been put back together again as well:
![](https://thumbsnap.com/sc/5duTavyP.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="https://thumbsnap.com/QaA3vEGC" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]https://thumbsnap.com/sc/QaA3vEGC.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="https://thumbsnap.com/hEvbvbCx" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]https://thumbsnap.com/sc/hEvbvbCx.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="https://thumbsnap.com/LnfAfF24" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]https://thumbsnap.com/sc/LnfAfF24.jpg)
Engine block cleaned up:
Heads are back after skimming and everything is going back together nicely.
The oil pump, with the damaged wheel causing the metal pieces found in the sump, has been put back together again as well:
Further updates from AV Engineering.
Upon disassembly of the engine parts they encountered a problem when attempting to remove the worn bearings from the the front cover of the bottom half of the block, see photos below:
![](https://thumbsnap.com/sc/iVgypXr0.png[/img]</a> <a href="https://thumbsnap.com/o3EcmG4I" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]https://thumbsnap.com/sc/o3EcmG4I.png)
The bearings were corroded so hard into that cover that it actually cracked on removal despite AV trying to heat it up in order to remove it:
Furthermore, one of the oil pipes also cracked on removal due to corrosion:
![](https://thumbsnap.com/sc/mL2QjKvi.png[/img]</a> <a href="https://thumbsnap.com/Vt1p9wHj" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]https://thumbsnap.com/sc/Vt1p9wHj.png[/img]</a> <a href="https://thumbsnap.com/UTk0YoH8" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]https://thumbsnap.com/sc/UTk0YoH8.png)
These are serious issues as the cracked cover can only be purchased as part of buying a new sump which comes in at a ridiculous cost of thousands and the little cracked pipe replacement itself is £350 + VAT!
However, once again, the team at AV Engineering have stepped up to the plate and come up with a cost effective solution. They have managed to source both items from a scrapped 360 engine for very little indeed!
Obviously I am extremely grateful to them for taking the time to source these things and more importantly at such a low cost. Hats off to these guys - not a lot of people would have gone to the trouble they are doing for me, very impressive!
Upon disassembly of the engine parts they encountered a problem when attempting to remove the worn bearings from the the front cover of the bottom half of the block, see photos below:
The bearings were corroded so hard into that cover that it actually cracked on removal despite AV trying to heat it up in order to remove it:
Furthermore, one of the oil pipes also cracked on removal due to corrosion:
These are serious issues as the cracked cover can only be purchased as part of buying a new sump which comes in at a ridiculous cost of thousands and the little cracked pipe replacement itself is £350 + VAT!
However, once again, the team at AV Engineering have stepped up to the plate and come up with a cost effective solution. They have managed to source both items from a scrapped 360 engine for very little indeed!
Obviously I am extremely grateful to them for taking the time to source these things and more importantly at such a low cost. Hats off to these guys - not a lot of people would have gone to the trouble they are doing for me, very impressive!
A second issue raised its ugly head when Ed at AV took the inlet manifold apart for a thorough inspection and clean up.
The 8 inlets each have a butterfly opening/plate which are held down by 2 screws..
As you can see from the attached photos one of the plates appear to have a screw missing!
![](https://thumbsnap.com/sc/pjBiv6c8.png[/img]</a> <a href="https://thumbsnap.com/MtV68mME" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]https://thumbsnap.com/sc/MtV68mME.png)
They found the screw wedged in at the corner of the inlet manifold!
Phew.. another lucky escape! Engines have been known to self destruct with screw like that dropping in..
A second screw was found to be loose also:
That's it for today - my scored crank is starting to look like a blessing in disguise!!
Thank you to the AV team for all their hard work so far - without them I clearly would have been in a lot of trouble sooner or later.
I will update this thread as we move forward in the new year. Thank you for reading
The 8 inlets each have a butterfly opening/plate which are held down by 2 screws..
As you can see from the attached photos one of the plates appear to have a screw missing!
They found the screw wedged in at the corner of the inlet manifold!
Phew.. another lucky escape! Engines have been known to self destruct with screw like that dropping in..
A second screw was found to be loose also:
That's it for today - my scored crank is starting to look like a blessing in disguise!!
Thank you to the AV team for all their hard work so far - without them I clearly would have been in a lot of trouble sooner or later.
I will update this thread as we move forward in the new year. Thank you for reading
Now this is the kind of thread I like to read.
Looking at the 360 engine stripped down to the block, one can see how it's very similar to the 355 engine. Similarities are almost equal, even the oil pump looks the same.
I am inserting a video of my 355 engine stripped down to the block so you can see what I mean and for comparison...here.. https://youtu.be/L_J1SfFauOY
Cylinder head stripped here https://youtu.be/4PqyusL2hbU
Good to see that your #8 bore was not really scored. The cylinder liners on both 355 & 360 engines are lined with a very thin (microns) coating of nikosil. Had the bore been scored deeper than a nats d1ck then a new liner would have been in order. So AV probably gave it a quick flex hone like I did to mine. However I did mine because I had bought new rings & shells before the strip, and flex honing the nikosil lined bores with a cross hatch seats the new rings in nicely.
Are you using new rings and or shells? What were the old shells like on your engine?
I found that on my 355 both the rings and shells were in excellent condition, my engine had done 50k miles.
I wonder who did your last service and fitted the wrong rear oil seal, goes to show not all ferrari engine builders are equil.
Great to see a thread like this mate, great job. Keep it going.
Looking at the 360 engine stripped down to the block, one can see how it's very similar to the 355 engine. Similarities are almost equal, even the oil pump looks the same.
I am inserting a video of my 355 engine stripped down to the block so you can see what I mean and for comparison...here.. https://youtu.be/L_J1SfFauOY
Cylinder head stripped here https://youtu.be/4PqyusL2hbU
Good to see that your #8 bore was not really scored. The cylinder liners on both 355 & 360 engines are lined with a very thin (microns) coating of nikosil. Had the bore been scored deeper than a nats d1ck then a new liner would have been in order. So AV probably gave it a quick flex hone like I did to mine. However I did mine because I had bought new rings & shells before the strip, and flex honing the nikosil lined bores with a cross hatch seats the new rings in nicely.
Are you using new rings and or shells? What were the old shells like on your engine?
I found that on my 355 both the rings and shells were in excellent condition, my engine had done 50k miles.
I wonder who did your last service and fitted the wrong rear oil seal, goes to show not all ferrari engine builders are equil.
Great to see a thread like this mate, great job. Keep it going.
Edited by FezSpider on Friday 13th December 21:09
FezSpider,
Thanks for the comments. Remarkable indeed how the blocks are so similar!
We are going to reuse the rings but put new shells in.
The engine is generally in remarkably good health given the 105,000 miles but obviously there is wear and tear to bearings, some valve seats, all seals etc.
It’s great to get all these photos and videos of the rebuild from AV Engineering, clearly they are meticulous in their approach.
Will update this thread as we move forward.
Thanks for the comments. Remarkable indeed how the blocks are so similar!
We are going to reuse the rings but put new shells in.
The engine is generally in remarkably good health given the 105,000 miles but obviously there is wear and tear to bearings, some valve seats, all seals etc.
It’s great to get all these photos and videos of the rebuild from AV Engineering, clearly they are meticulous in their approach.
Will update this thread as we move forward.
Edited by Bebs on Saturday 14th December 11:22
Very interesting thread. Thanks for taking the time to post up the pictures and details of the work done, and well done for using the car properly in the first place.
It looks like you're using the same people that are looking after the 360 of this youtuber - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hK5XChN5bA - they seem to know these cars very well.
It looks like you're using the same people that are looking after the 360 of this youtuber - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hK5XChN5bA - they seem to know these cars very well.
Whilst we wait for the used cover and oil pipe, to replace the corroded ones, AV engineering have turned their attention to the gearbox and in particular the heat exchanger shown below. It regulates the gearbox oil temperature with coolant:
Unfortunately this part is also rather corroded on the inside and will therefore need to be replaced. If it goes properly then the gearbox fills with coolant resulting in a complete gearbox rebuild:
The team at AV subsequently popped the diff out to let whatever fluid is in there drain out before putting it all back together again:
Unfortunately this part is also rather corroded on the inside and will therefore need to be replaced. If it goes properly then the gearbox fills with coolant resulting in a complete gearbox rebuild:
The team at AV subsequently popped the diff out to let whatever fluid is in there drain out before putting it all back together again:
thegreenhell said:
Very interesting thread. Thanks for taking the time to post up the pictures and details of the work done, and well done for using the car properly in the first place.
It looks like you're using the same people that are looking after the 360 of this youtuber - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hK5XChN5bA - they seem to know these cars very well.
Yes, that's my car sitting to the left of the black one in the video It looks like you're using the same people that are looking after the 360 of this youtuber - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hK5XChN5bA - they seem to know these cars very well.
This is a really excellent series of posts. Thank you Beeb. The moral is obvious. I once had a Jaguar E Type which had an engine part rebuild where a short cut was taken. That resulted in a full rebuild some 1000 miles later. Personally, I would always use a maintenance outlet that I can trust. Saving a few pennies can cost you many pounds later.
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