F355 ...... should I do it?
Discussion
OK, I'll kick things off. Firstly I'd say you're about five years late to the party, with prices of most modern classic Ferraris (except sub 10k mileage/low owner/garage queens) drifting slowly down over the past two years.
The other issue you'll encounter the other way is that they're relatively delicate cars that can cost a lot to upkeep (regular cambelt stuff), especially given how old they are now (buttresses/ECU's/rust etc).
I was fortunate and bought mine 10 years ago and despite always putting my hand in my pocket for whatever was needed, I'm quids in. However at this point I wouldn't consider buying any modern classic Ferrari unless it's a car you've dreamt of owning, can't wait to drive and most importantly, don't really mind what its value is in the future.
The other issue you'll encounter the other way is that they're relatively delicate cars that can cost a lot to upkeep (regular cambelt stuff), especially given how old they are now (buttresses/ECU's/rust etc).
I was fortunate and bought mine 10 years ago and despite always putting my hand in my pocket for whatever was needed, I'm quids in. However at this point I wouldn't consider buying any modern classic Ferrari unless it's a car you've dreamt of owning, can't wait to drive and most importantly, don't really mind what its value is in the future.
This is a breakdown of 355s on sale on Autotrader at the start of each month for the last 12 months. Each line is based on a snapshot of data at the start of the month, rather than calculating all cars on sale during that month (it's just quicker to do that, and good enough really). The median price is key, as that shows a good mid-point for the market without undue influence of very high outliers, there is also an "entry price" which is the mean average of the cheapest 3 cars on sale as an indicator of the floor of the market.
This is all cars, coupe and spider, but excluding challenge cars.
Make of it what you will, this is just the data, but to my eye it looks like prices are pretty stable, and certainly not shooting up.
This is all cars, coupe and spider, but excluding challenge cars.
Make of it what you will, this is just the data, but to my eye it looks like prices are pretty stable, and certainly not shooting up.
month number on sale Median Price Entry Price
Jun 59 72500 52640
Jul 53 75950 52660
Aug 52 72492 51460
Sep 53 69995 54330
Oct 54 71995 46330
Nov 49 69990 47990
Dec 35 69950 48330
Jan 36 73992 49660
Feb 29 74989 52990
Mar 33 72500 46150
Apr 38 74944 51660
May 55 72500 51660
I would not do it as an investment - as the poster above pointed out, they cost a lot to run.
I bought mine for 33k and sold it 2.5 years later for 27k. During my ownership, I think I put an easy 15-20k into it (1 big service with cambelt, 1-2 small services, both manifolds, rebuild alternator, new cats and a lot of other stuff I can no longer remember).
Would I buy another one - without a doubt as I only sold it due to having lost my job. I loved the car, but at current prices and given numbers built, I would not do it with an investment view.
The one exception is, you might get lucky with a 355 Challenge with some race history as a (very) long term play. They are rare and still relatively affordable for being the last manual Challenge car. They of course are also about 3-4x the price compared to 10 years ago, so kinda missed the boat as well.... but at least they are rare (I think only a little more than 100 cars total) and might at some point become a "must have" for people wanting a full set of Challenge cars in their collection.
I bought mine for 33k and sold it 2.5 years later for 27k. During my ownership, I think I put an easy 15-20k into it (1 big service with cambelt, 1-2 small services, both manifolds, rebuild alternator, new cats and a lot of other stuff I can no longer remember).
Would I buy another one - without a doubt as I only sold it due to having lost my job. I loved the car, but at current prices and given numbers built, I would not do it with an investment view.
The one exception is, you might get lucky with a 355 Challenge with some race history as a (very) long term play. They are rare and still relatively affordable for being the last manual Challenge car. They of course are also about 3-4x the price compared to 10 years ago, so kinda missed the boat as well.... but at least they are rare (I think only a little more than 100 cars total) and might at some point become a "must have" for people wanting a full set of Challenge cars in their collection.
murphyaj said:
This is a breakdown of 355s on sale on Autotrader at the start of each month for the last 12 months. Each line is based on a snapshot of data at the start of the month, rather than calculating all cars on sale during that month (it's just quicker to do that, and good enough really). The median price is key, as that shows a good mid-point for the market without undue influence of very high outliers, there is also an "entry price" which is the mean average of the cheapest 3 cars on sale as an indicator of the floor of the market.
This is all cars, coupe and spider, but excluding challenge cars.
Make of it what you will, this is just the data, but to my eye it looks like prices are pretty stable, and certainly not shooting up.
Now that’s what you call being helpful, Kudos to you. This is all cars, coupe and spider, but excluding challenge cars.
Make of it what you will, this is just the data, but to my eye it looks like prices are pretty stable, and certainly not shooting up.
month number on sale Median Price Entry Price
Jun 59 72500 52640
Jul 53 75950 52660
Aug 52 72492 51460
Sep 53 69995 54330
Oct 54 71995 46330
Nov 49 69990 47990
Dec 35 69950 48330
Jan 36 73992 49660
Feb 29 74989 52990
Mar 33 72500 46150
Apr 38 74944 51660
May 55 72500 51660
I've kept a blog of what i've spent on mine to give you some idea of the running costs involved.
https://www.pistonheads.com/members/showcar.asp?ca...
https://www.pistonheads.com/members/showcar.asp?ca...
That is really helpful thank you for taking time to share this. Valuable.
murphyaj said:
This is a breakdown of 355s on sale on Autotrader at the start of each month for the last 12 months. Each line is based on a snapshot of data at the start of the month, rather than calculating all cars on sale during that month (it's just quicker to do that, and good enough really). The median price is key, as that shows a good mid-point for the market without undue influence of very high outliers, there is also an "entry price" which is the mean average of the cheapest 3 cars on sale as an indicator of the floor of the market.
This is all cars, coupe and spider, but excluding challenge cars.
Make of it what you will, this is just the data, but to my eye it looks like prices are pretty stable, and certainly not shooting up.
This is all cars, coupe and spider, but excluding challenge cars.
Make of it what you will, this is just the data, but to my eye it looks like prices are pretty stable, and certainly not shooting up.
month number on sale Median Price Entry Price
Jun 59 72500 52640
Jul 53 75950 52660
Aug 52 72492 51460
Sep 53 69995 54330
Oct 54 71995 46330
Nov 49 69990 47990
Dec 35 69950 48330
Jan 36 73992 49660
Feb 29 74989 52990
Mar 33 72500 46150
Apr 38 74944 51660
May 55 72500 51660
As many have said here and elsewhere on the site, buying as an investment is a dangerous game (unless perhaps you’re shopping in the £500k+ territory).
However, buying a car that will more or less hold its value, and thus you own it “for free” (less substantial running costs), is fairly realistic. For various reasons I don’t see the F355 going down much in value, so if that’s your game, go for it. That’s what I did- picked mine up in November
However there’s only logic in that if you actually *want* the car. If it’s a pure investment, and you couldn’t give a damn about what the car is, then no way, because in pure financial terms it’s likely you’ll end up at least a bit down.
With this car in particular, I also think you’ll protect yourself much more if you go for the desirable spec (RHD manual red over cream). The iconic nature of that combo counts for a lot on the market from what I could tell when I was buying.
Finally, for what it’s worth, the YouTuber Doug DeMuro put out a video the other day with cars he expects to rise in value. It’s hardly gospel, but the F355 was there, so here’s hoping!
https://youtu.be/LP1OkiPu6XM
However, buying a car that will more or less hold its value, and thus you own it “for free” (less substantial running costs), is fairly realistic. For various reasons I don’t see the F355 going down much in value, so if that’s your game, go for it. That’s what I did- picked mine up in November
However there’s only logic in that if you actually *want* the car. If it’s a pure investment, and you couldn’t give a damn about what the car is, then no way, because in pure financial terms it’s likely you’ll end up at least a bit down.
With this car in particular, I also think you’ll protect yourself much more if you go for the desirable spec (RHD manual red over cream). The iconic nature of that combo counts for a lot on the market from what I could tell when I was buying.
Finally, for what it’s worth, the YouTuber Doug DeMuro put out a video the other day with cars he expects to rise in value. It’s hardly gospel, but the F355 was there, so here’s hoping!
https://youtu.be/LP1OkiPu6XM
Fantastic help from all - I think it’s a sit back and take time just shopping around and if one jumps out that I love then do it. As a car I will drive and hopefully not lose huge amounts on but enjoy ownership. Really appreciate everyone’s thoughts and comments. Super helpful and kudos to all. Thanks DJ
fesuvious said:
Mine was in the EVO buying guide a couple of years ago and I have owned mine since 2012.
It has been painless.
Maintained every year by AE Performance and to be quite honest it has been easy.
Servicing totals/averages @£5k every three years.
Mine is a F1. If you learn how to use the box properly then the much reported 'they go through clutches' is quickly revealed as nonsense. I have used @15% over 8000miles.
Same with 'catastrophic and ruinous head rebuilds are a danger' . No. Not if the car as always been started correctly.
They are great cars. Mine goes under the hammer this weekend. I have never owned a car as long as this one (I've owned more than 140cars). It's been great. I'm only selling as I need the space.
When I was looking I saw many bad ones. Mine I bought privately after viewing 11 or 12 examples at the usual dealers and one at a main agent. Every one of those dealers told me it would be a terrible decision to buy privately.
I followed 'buy the owner, not the car'.
So, when you view, get the V5, trace the owner and get in touch!
Moreover, many owners take the view 'ive only done 250miles this year so I'll service next year's and so on. Ending up with a 20year old car with only 8 services. It's easy to buy into this logic but it speaks of skimping.
If a car has been skimped on, no matter how tempting it looks on condition or price-walk away. These are fragile cars unless treated well and cared for.
Can you please explain the starting procedure you speak of?It has been painless.
Maintained every year by AE Performance and to be quite honest it has been easy.
Servicing totals/averages @£5k every three years.
Mine is a F1. If you learn how to use the box properly then the much reported 'they go through clutches' is quickly revealed as nonsense. I have used @15% over 8000miles.
Same with 'catastrophic and ruinous head rebuilds are a danger' . No. Not if the car as always been started correctly.
They are great cars. Mine goes under the hammer this weekend. I have never owned a car as long as this one (I've owned more than 140cars). It's been great. I'm only selling as I need the space.
When I was looking I saw many bad ones. Mine I bought privately after viewing 11 or 12 examples at the usual dealers and one at a main agent. Every one of those dealers told me it would be a terrible decision to buy privately.
I followed 'buy the owner, not the car'.
So, when you view, get the V5, trace the owner and get in touch!
Moreover, many owners take the view 'ive only done 250miles this year so I'll service next year's and so on. Ending up with a 20year old car with only 8 services. It's easy to buy into this logic but it speaks of skimping.
If a car has been skimped on, no matter how tempting it looks on condition or price-walk away. These are fragile cars unless treated well and cared for.
Had mine about 12 years went from being worth about £50k -£140k and probably back doen to £80k now i guess.
Its never made any difference to me as its the one car I would never sell, its also been probably the most reliable car I have owned.
I looked at 23 RHD red and creme manual spiders before I bought mine. There were so many dreadful examples out there and that was a long time ago.
Many of the ones I looked at had very skimpy service history.
Mine has been serviced every year by the same Ferrari specialist no matter how many miles its done in a year.
I have had several friends buy them over the years, many have bought cheap ones nd then spent 000's getting them right ... one friend £20kon his first service
Phib
Its never made any difference to me as its the one car I would never sell, its also been probably the most reliable car I have owned.
I looked at 23 RHD red and creme manual spiders before I bought mine. There were so many dreadful examples out there and that was a long time ago.
Many of the ones I looked at had very skimpy service history.
Mine has been serviced every year by the same Ferrari specialist no matter how many miles its done in a year.
I have had several friends buy them over the years, many have bought cheap ones nd then spent 000's getting them right ... one friend £20kon his first service
Phib
It's the wrong time to buy a modern classic Ferrari as an investment now, because the market is starting to drop back down again at the moment, that's just a fact.
Prices in general are softening up, and more and more cars are coming onto the market, as owners try to sell them on for more than they bought them for, before it's too late. As more cars come onto the market, the prices start to go down.
Two years ago you couldn't find a RHD 328 GTB/GTS for less that £80K, even with "high" miles on them, today there are at least three for sale for @£65K.
RHD 308 GTB's/GTS' were selling for £90K+ back then, today there are a number for sale for @ £70K, and a couple of cars needing work for @ £55K.
RHD 360's that were trading @ £60K+, are now starting off @ £50K.
The list of 355's for sale shown in this thread, doesn't take into account how long the same cars have been for sale due to their prices being unrealistically high. Think about it, if someone has a 355 up for sale at £100K that doesn't sell for a year because it's only really worth £80K, that will prop the average market price up for month after month (let's be honest here, some sellers have a seriously unrealistic idea of the value of their cars, and some are just complete chancers!).
If the car is being bought as an investment, I'd hold off for a year or two, and wait for the values to drop further, but even then, you could be waiting quite a few years before the values go back up again.
(Right now I'm seeing a number of people trying to jump on the Ferrari gravy train to make a profit, not realising that the train is starting to slow down again)
If you're buying a car to just own, drive and enjoy, and not to make money on, then things are heading in the right direction, but I'd still hold off for a while longer, and keep an eye on the prices.
At the end of the day it's up to you what you do with your money, but having studied the modern classic Ferrari market closely for the last ten years now (and not so closely for the last 20 years), I wouldn't be buying one as an investment now!
Prices in general are softening up, and more and more cars are coming onto the market, as owners try to sell them on for more than they bought them for, before it's too late. As more cars come onto the market, the prices start to go down.
Two years ago you couldn't find a RHD 328 GTB/GTS for less that £80K, even with "high" miles on them, today there are at least three for sale for @£65K.
RHD 308 GTB's/GTS' were selling for £90K+ back then, today there are a number for sale for @ £70K, and a couple of cars needing work for @ £55K.
RHD 360's that were trading @ £60K+, are now starting off @ £50K.
The list of 355's for sale shown in this thread, doesn't take into account how long the same cars have been for sale due to their prices being unrealistically high. Think about it, if someone has a 355 up for sale at £100K that doesn't sell for a year because it's only really worth £80K, that will prop the average market price up for month after month (let's be honest here, some sellers have a seriously unrealistic idea of the value of their cars, and some are just complete chancers!).
If the car is being bought as an investment, I'd hold off for a year or two, and wait for the values to drop further, but even then, you could be waiting quite a few years before the values go back up again.
(Right now I'm seeing a number of people trying to jump on the Ferrari gravy train to make a profit, not realising that the train is starting to slow down again)
If you're buying a car to just own, drive and enjoy, and not to make money on, then things are heading in the right direction, but I'd still hold off for a while longer, and keep an eye on the prices.
At the end of the day it's up to you what you do with your money, but having studied the modern classic Ferrari market closely for the last ten years now (and not so closely for the last 20 years), I wouldn't be buying one as an investment now!
I had 15 years of continuous F355 spider ownership over 2 cars that came to an end late last year.
First was a lovely Le Mans Blu with crème, the 2nd an uber rare Fiorano handling pack version red over black.
Every year without fail they were through to Ferrari for servicing and maintenance, and contrary to a previous post, even supremely maintained versions are expensive to run now, as even though mines was one of the last built, its still 20 years old and items were starting to fail with age.
That's a double edged sword, as there isn't much that you can replace on a F355 that is cheap, and even then that may not be the issue; lots of parts are not being made now and you have to scour the globe for some obscure 2nd hand parts from breakers.
Then there are other problems that arise; last year it developed an electrical problem that took 38hours to trace with the dashboard having to come out....that sucked.
The high maintenance cost were offset for myself by how much the car went up in value, and as mentioned in a previous post, if I had sold 2 years previously I may of achieved a huge amount more....and I say may as there are still lots of 355s advertised that were up for sale 2 or 3 years ago at the same price....a good few owners bought after they leaped up in price and are trying to sell for the same as they may of paid but the market has changed.
The F355 is a great looking car, but and expensive car, and I personally feel as though they are still artificially high in price. Finding a buyer was very tricky and that was with a Fiorano car.
Here's the thing...I really loved the F355, but as soon as it was gone, I genuinely did not miss it.
Loads of fantastic times, quite a few frustrating times.
Think long and hard and go forward with your eyes wide open; you are looking as this as an investment, but you will have to put in regular decent cash to keep this in tip top condition with yearly servicing and maintenance in order to keep it at its value, never mind hoping it increases.
Apologies for not sugercoating it.
Best of luck in your search
First was a lovely Le Mans Blu with crème, the 2nd an uber rare Fiorano handling pack version red over black.
Every year without fail they were through to Ferrari for servicing and maintenance, and contrary to a previous post, even supremely maintained versions are expensive to run now, as even though mines was one of the last built, its still 20 years old and items were starting to fail with age.
That's a double edged sword, as there isn't much that you can replace on a F355 that is cheap, and even then that may not be the issue; lots of parts are not being made now and you have to scour the globe for some obscure 2nd hand parts from breakers.
Then there are other problems that arise; last year it developed an electrical problem that took 38hours to trace with the dashboard having to come out....that sucked.
The high maintenance cost were offset for myself by how much the car went up in value, and as mentioned in a previous post, if I had sold 2 years previously I may of achieved a huge amount more....and I say may as there are still lots of 355s advertised that were up for sale 2 or 3 years ago at the same price....a good few owners bought after they leaped up in price and are trying to sell for the same as they may of paid but the market has changed.
The F355 is a great looking car, but and expensive car, and I personally feel as though they are still artificially high in price. Finding a buyer was very tricky and that was with a Fiorano car.
Here's the thing...I really loved the F355, but as soon as it was gone, I genuinely did not miss it.
Loads of fantastic times, quite a few frustrating times.
Think long and hard and go forward with your eyes wide open; you are looking as this as an investment, but you will have to put in regular decent cash to keep this in tip top condition with yearly servicing and maintenance in order to keep it at its value, never mind hoping it increases.
Apologies for not sugercoating it.
Best of luck in your search
4rephill said:
The list of 355's for sale shown in this thread, doesn't take into account how long the same cars have been for sale due to their prices being unrealistically high. Think about it, if someone has a 355 up for sale at £100K that doesn't sell for a year because it's only really worth £80K, that will prop the average market price up for month after month (let's be honest here, some sellers have a seriously unrealistic idea of the value of their cars, and some are just complete chancers!).
These are very good points, it is always important to think about what data is not showing as well as what it is. Since you bring it up I do have data on how long cars have been on sale, which is interesting in itself.Regarding an outlyer dragging up the average; that's why I intentionally quoted the median, rather than the mean. The median is the middle point, at which half the cars are priced above that value, so if someone advertises a 360 for a million quid the median will not move by much. I also gave the change in prices over time as an indication of how the market may be changing, as opposed to a definitive indication of what 360s may be worth now.
For each car in my database I have the date it went on sale, as well as the date of any price drops during the time it was on sale. There are 52 360s on sale right now, the median time on sale is a little under 4 months. 13 of those 52 cars have been on sale for more than a year. One year ago there were 59 cars on sale, with a median time on sale of slightly over 3 months, that implies cars are hanging around a touch longer, but it's a small change. A really important point here is that my data only sees when a car advert disappears, that might be because it sold, or it could be that the owner decided to keep it.
Here too there are outliers; one example has been on sale for 15 months, was up for £79995 a year ago, and is £65000 now, but it's important not to get too focused on single examples like that because it could be that car is in poor condition, and is thus finding it hard to find a buyer. Condition is everything for these cars, and the adverts don't show that. With data like this it's tempting to dive down into the details, when it's best to keep things high-level.
mike01606 said:
usn90 said:
Can you please explain the starting procedure you speak of?
Say Hail Mary three times and cross your fingers...Start the car
Watch all your warning lights / gauges for a little while
And then drive it while continuing to watch for red lights .... yellow ones can be ignored for the most part
From memory anyway
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