Tracking a 458?

[acey81]

Hello,
In this day and age when politicians are trying to kill the Supercar as we know it with legislation, I feel that time has come to explore a few unicorns and scratch a few itches before it is too late.

My car history consist of mostly Porsches and Porsche GT product, currently a 991.2 GT3. I'm contemplating switching it out to a 458 Italia (Speciale out of my price range).

The GT3 sees track quite a lot, and I would call myself an "advanced" driver. From what I gather, using the 458 in the same manner wouldn't really work, so I have some other plans for the heavy duty track stuff (Radical, or similar). But I would love to be able to take it out on at least 2-3 track days just to get a feel for the car.

So my question is, would it handle it? Are there K-specific MPSC2 tires for the 458? How does it handle setup changes? Is it possible to get enough camber on to do any meaningful track work done? How is brake wear with all the fancy electronics? Should I keep the stock pads?

Any other tips when looking for a 458? How valuable is the service pack? Can you run one out of warranty?

Thanks!

[Taffy66]

Ive just bought a 458 Italia to run alongside my 991.2gt3 PDK and 981 Spyder and i love it..I don't intend tracking it as i don't think it'll hold up as well as a GT Porsche although that's just guesswork..What surprised my about the 458 mostly is the build quality as my 17k miler's interior looks and feels absolutely brand spanking new.Even the bolsters on the C/F racing seats are 100% crease free..
In my limited ownership time i've come to a few conclusions.One is its a fair bit faster than my GT3 with torque everywhere although this is partly down to sensible lower gearing. It rides like a limo if you press the Bumpy road mode and turns into a rocket if you turn the dial to 'Race' mode.
Mine is in Grigio Silverstone and Gloss black roof and mirrors which is both understated and classy..It gets more positive reaction from other road users, even thumbs-up from cyclists which surprised me.Price is very spec sensitive and mine is a very high spec with all the inside carbon plus carbon front spoiler and rear diffuser..
FWIW EVO magazine run a 458 in their fleet which has done over 80K miles where over half was on track and it still runs and feels like brand new..They have even commented that their 458 is the most durable and reliable supercar they've run.
The 458 was the first Ferrari ever built to have teutonic rivaling build quality and a car i can wholeheartedly recommend.Just make sure it has a full Ferrari service history especially if its post 2011 with the free 7 year service pack..Ignore the number of owners its had as these type of cars were swapped on a regular basis by owners who are chasing the latest 'must have' supercar..

[MDL111]

Don’t have a 458, but been on track regularly in the Scuderia and it did fine (not an advanced driver I might add). Usually there were a couple of Ferraris on the track days I attended, anything from GTC4 Lusso, 488 to Speciales.
Also been to a few Ferrari track days (Hockenheim and Brno) and obviously loads of Ferraris on track, many seemed to be lapping quite hard from what I could tell

Also saw a 488 that rear ended a Speciale - some Gaffer tape on the Spec and it was back out on track with a quarter of the bumper missing (the 488 was done I believe)

I mainly worry about replacement cost of the ceramics, but without the ceramics no warranty and i’d Like that as a safety net In case something big lets go

I will switch to probably Cup 2 (again TBD with dealer if they allow it as they were unwilling to put Sottozeros on the car although the tyre fulfilled all criteria) and go to the max geo settings allowed by Ferrari in spring
Also need to find a cheap replacement windscreen - Ferrari wants 5k for one (am hoping I can find one cheaper via eurospares or sth)

Edit to add - there is a guy tracking a 430 quite a lot who recently posted on another thread - forgot who it was though, maybe he’ll contribute

[anonymous-user]

That might be me. Actually at Silverstone today in my 430. I’ve done a fair bit to it to make it a better track car (see my thread https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... but it is now great fun on track and relatively reliable - certainly no worse than those around me. Consumables are of course more expensive so you’ll need to factor that in but it comes down to pads and tyres with the occasional rotor and wheel bearing thrown in. Recently had to replace the O2 sensors. This comment will probably jinx me but the engine has been spot on. I race an MX5 but the F430 gets regular use and there are few things better than flat out down the Hanger straight with that v8 wailing behind you!

[johnnyreggae]

I get the sense from many previous threads that a relatively high proportion of the 458 here are tracked presumably because (as well as everything else) they are quite robust

[acey81]

Thanks chaps! Intersting comment "Taffyt66" as I was prepared to take a "loss" of performance switching to the 458, glad that in the real world it will feel as fast if not faster.

It seems like that 458 is not as sensitive to mileage as previous Ferraris, and that the overall quality has gone up. I can't for the really understand how they have fallen so low in price, that they are almost Porsche 991.1 GT3 prices or slightly above...

How important will it be to keep servicing it at the main dealer when it falls outside of the free servicing period? How sensitive is the car to proper K-spec tires instead of generic Michelin / Pirelli?

Pointers to buying guides / other threads on this forum or any other general information is much appreciated.

[Taffy66]

acey81 said:

Thanks chaps! Intersting comment "Taffyt66" as I was prepared to take a "loss" of performance switching to the 458, glad that in the real world it will feel as fast if not faster.

It seems like that 458 is not as sensitive to mileage as previous Ferraris, and that the overall quality has gone up. I can't for the really understand how they have fallen so low in price, that they are almost Porsche 991.1 GT3 prices or slightly above...

How important will it be to keep servicing it at the main dealer when it falls outside of the free servicing period? How sensitive is the car to proper K-spec tires instead of generic Michelin / Pirelli?

Pointers to buying guides / other threads on this forum or any other general information is much appreciated.

You need to subscribe to 'Ferrari chat' forum and do searches on it..The searches will uncover pretty much any issues or queries you might have on 458s..Don't overpay for one and bide you time to find your personal perfect spec car at a sensible price.
It took me a year to find my 'perfect' spec at a realistic price..I intend to continue servicing mine at a well regarded Ferrari main dealer as it has an unbroken FSH and it'll be financial ruin if you don't.
I have two sets of rims on mine..It came on high quality forged 21''F and 22''R but i also have a brand new OEM set of forged rims in my garage,

[willy wombat]

I've tracked my 458 spider quite a few times. I'm not an advanced driver but not a novice either. I don't change anything for the track, just check tyre pressures, oil level etc and try to ensure that the windscreen washer bottle is no more than half full otherwise it empties itself into the front boot. I haven't had any brake problems or excessive wear. The tyres get a bit worn round the edges and I am amazed at how sticky the tyres (standard p zeros) get, particularly front nearside on a fast clockwise circuit like Goodwood. The heat cycles from track days plus the same from Alpine driving etc has made the tyres progressively harder to the extent that I've just changed them even though there was reasonable tread left. I should make it clear that I do not consider myself a "driving god" and am not in pursuit of the absolute fastest lap. I just like to be able to use more of the car's performance than you can on a public road.

[Taffy66]

When i found my ideal 458 i insisted on having an up to date 'Health check' from a Ferrari main dealer..My main concern was the CCBs wear as they cost a fortune to replace.As it turned they only had 8% wear so not an issue..Check for any sign of leaking from the dampers which should be flagged on the Health check..
Try and get one with Electric folding mirrors as the 458 is wider than the GT3. The standard Hi-Fi is mediocre at best but mine has the much better JBL system which is well worth it..

[willy wombat]

+1 on the dampers. I had my front ones replaced (under warranty) at about 6 k miles, and even if only one leaking they have to be replaced as a pair.

[acey81]

Thanks! Will have a look at Ferrari-chat, I did a find a thread from a couple of years ago, but it quickly became a pissing contest regarding which car is the fastest, if a Ferrari should be tracked, Ferrari false advertising (car on track in sales brochure, but not covered under warranty etc), that you should buy a Speciale, that you shouldn't buy a Speciale, that you should but a Porsche GT product... Seems like the vibe is better here.


The search shall begin!

[MingtheMerciless]

I haven't tracked my 458 all that much but I did have a CCB fail. The engine is by all accounts fairly bombproof but consumables will cost more than GT Porsches I'd say. Also, 458's are mileage and maybe even use sensitive if you care about residuals, whereas GT3's don't seem to be - most GT3's see some track action and perhaps more daily use than 458's. I'd drive both to see which you prefer on track. Personally, and everyone has a different view, I loved the 991 GT3 on track almost as much as the 458. I'd be happy with either as my track weapon but in the end they are only road cars and by the time you have driven a 458 to the extent of a normal good driver's abilities, you will have spent enough to buy a track hack to play with.

Edit sorry - re-read you are an advanced driver and your GT3 sees a lot of track action. I wouldn't be afraid to track a 458 at all and you will notice a difference (I think, and I'm not an advanced driver, the 458 can be a little more abrupt when losing grip than GT3 and you are carrying more expense into a gravel trap perhaps), it is a fantastic track car as long as you don't mind a little more expense and depreciation. But then that's like keeping your girlfriend for the next chap so go for it.

Edited by MingtheMerciless on Monday 21st January 13:33

Edited by MingtheMerciless on Monday 21st January 13:33

[Gibbo205]

Taffy66 said:

Ive just bought a 458 Italia to run alongside my 991.2gt3 PDK and 981 Spyder and i love it..I don't intend tracking it as i don't think it'll hold up as well as a GT Porsche although that's just guesswork..What surprised my about the 458 mostly is the build quality as my 17k miler's interior looks and feels absolutely brand spanking new.Even the bolsters on the C/F racing seats are 100% crease free..
In my limited ownership time i've come to a few conclusions.One is its a fair bit faster than my GT3 with torque everywhere although this is partly down to sensible lower gearing. It rides like a limo if you press the Bumpy road mode and turns into a rocket if you turn the dial to 'Race' mode.
Mine is in Grigio Silverstone and Gloss black roof and mirrors which is both understated and classy..It gets more positive reaction from other road users, even thumbs-up from cyclists which surprised me.Price is very spec sensitive and mine is a very high spec with all the inside carbon plus carbon front spoiler and rear diffuser..
FWIW EVO magazine run a 458 in their fleet which has done over 80K miles where over half was on track and it still runs and feels like brand new..They have even commented that their 458 is the most durable and reliable supercar they've run.
The 458 was the first Ferrari ever built to have teutonic rivaling build quality and a car i can wholeheartedly recommend.Just make sure it has a full Ferrari service history especially if its post 2011 with the free 7 year service pack..Ignore the number of owners its had as these type of cars were swapped on a regular basis by owners who are chasing the latest 'must have' supercar..

How would your rate and compare the GT3 and 458 for driving on the road as a daily car if you have time to mention please?

[Taffy66]

Gibbo205 said:

How would your rate and compare the GT3 and 458 for driving on the road as a daily car if you have time to mention please?

I'm very much a novice with regards Ferrari but owned Porsches for nearly 20 years..However in my brief time driving my 458 here are the main differences IMHO.
It takes a while to get used to having pretty much every control steering wheel based on the 458 compared to having a GT3 with zero steering wheel buttons.Once you acclimatize it becomes second nature much quicker than you initially realise. Same goes to having fixed gear flappy paddles compared to the GT3s wheel mounted version.
When driving the 458 it feels wider because it is but again a case of familiarisation. It feels torquier than the GT3 further helped by having lower gearing which leads to a more effortless feeling at sensible speeds..It rides better than the GT3 or 981 Spyder to such an extent my better half noticed straight away.
The seats are better than my Porsches LWBS as they're far easier for ingress/egress plus a very useful folding ability with a knob to alter the backrest angle.
It garners a more positive reaction from other road user as they seem to let you out at junctions more readily than in a Porsche..My main surprise is that the build quality feels more german than Italian..

[Slippydiff]

Jethro B sparking an already high miles, well tracked 458 here.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry_Ywh8I9-4

Definitely worthwhile watching and listening g to his comments :

With regards to CCB’s, I’d look into the Surface Transforms (ST) replacements :

https://surfacetransforms.com/ferrari-brake-kits/

I worked with ST early on in their development, and they produced a set for my 996 GT2. They are bullet proof and far, far more durable than the OE discs. For further information and feedback on them, PM and speak to ChrisW on the Porsche forum. I recommended he fit a set to his GT4, he tracks it hard, I think to say he’s been massively impressed with them would be an understatement...

A word of caution on the leaking dampers, they’re not cheap to replace, and there have been instances of Ferrari (or their warranty provider) refusing claims. I’m guessing mileage, service history, relationship with dealer (and whether the car was a Ferrari Approved purchase) will have impacted on the outcome of any claims.

[Taffy66]

I assume that ST's 458 continuous fibre brake discs can be refurbished up to 5 or 6 times like their Porsche discs..Pretty good value at £8400+VAT for a full set compared to OEM prices.

[Slippydiff]

Taffy66 said:

I assume that ST's 458 continuous fibre brake discs can be refurbished up to 5 or 6 times like their Porsche discs..Pretty good value at £8400+VAT for a full set compared to OEM prices.

Yep, not that you’ll need to. When I was involved in the development process, Koenigsegg (or one of their customers) ran a car on track and wore the pads down to the backplates. They thought the discs were scrap, but they sent them back to ST, who re-machined them.
The discs are so incredibly hard, the damage to the faces was minimal and easily removed by machining, and they went back on the car to do further trackdat service.

[Dave Sums]

Taffy66 said:

I assume that ST's 458 continuous fibre brake discs can be refurbished up to 5 or 6 times like their Porsche discs..Pretty good value at £8400+VAT for a full set compared to OEM prices.

The ST brakes are amazing. I have them on my 997.2RS that runs on KW 3 way and has a 530hp 4.2 Manthey engine in the back plus runs on slicks. They have been on there for 12000 track miles and 3 years and I have refurbished them once. Recently fitted them to my 991RS and they have done 3000 miles on track and still perfect. I also had then on my Manthey M600 911 GT2 and my 458 challenge racecar and on the 458 they did probably 40 hours of testing/racing before I sold it and were still fine. Just make sure you pick the right pad compound for your mix of use.

[Slippydiff]

Dave Sums said:

Taffy66 said:

I assume that ST's 458 continuous fibre brake discs can be refurbished up to 5 or 6 times like their Porsche discs..Pretty good value at £8400+VAT for a full set compared to OEM prices.

The ST brakes are amazing. I have them on my 997.2RS that runs on KW 3 way and has a 530hp 4.2 Manthey engine in the back plus runs on slicks. They have been on there for 12000 track miles and 3 years and I have refurbished them once. Recently fitted them to my 991RS and they have done 3000 miles on track and still perfect. I also had then on my Manthey M600 911 GT2 and my 458 challenge racecar and on the 458 they did probably 40 hours of testing/racing before I sold it and were still fine. Just make sure you pick the right pad compound for your mix of use.

There’s really nothing further to add to that ....

[paulmnz]

bit of thread hijack, but good to hear some recent feedback on ST. I plan to use them if/when my carbon discs needs replacing them but the internet had gone a little quiet on them after they had some supply problems (I believe they focused on F1 and racing and the refurb business had taken a back seat leading to some unhappy customers due to wait time)