Big brake kit for F430
Discussion
I track my 2005 F430 a fair bit and although I've upgraded fluids, lines and pads the steels still won't get me more than a few laps now without overheating. I'm loving the car on track but am now considering upgrading to bigger steels. I've ruled out CCMs on cost and wear considerations. Does anyone here have experience with either the Brembo or AP Racing kits and should I start with fronts only or do the rears as well?
I initially switched to Pagid RS29 but the squealing on the street drove me nuts. I was then recommended EBC Yellowstuff which are are quiet (when properly seated with copper paste) and seemed fine on track - although read that as two wet track days at Silverstone. I then did Snetterton 300 last week and I just wasn't confident under braking after 5 laps or so. I was doing circa 2.10's around there (from video) so was pushing on a bit, but brakes became the limiting factor - well besides me of course. So my thinking is now larger steels. I had forgotten about the RS29s though - you think I should try them again - I don't use the 430 much on the road at all - or something else?
thecook101 said:
I initially switched to Pagid RS29 but the squealing on the street drove me nuts. I was then recommended EBC Yellowstuff which are are quiet (when properly seated with copper paste) and seemed fine on track - although read that as two wet track days at Silverstone. I then did Snetterton 300 last week and I just wasn't confident under braking after 5 laps or so. I was doing circa 2.10's around there (from video) so was pushing on a bit, but brakes became the limiting factor - well besides me of course. So my thinking is now larger steels. I had forgotten about the RS29s though - you think I should try them again - I don't use the 430 much on the road at all - or something else?
To be fair those pads are not that good if you are really pushing on.The 29 is more of an endurance pad so initial bite is not that good and the yellowstuff is a real budget pad.Try a set of Pagid RST1's if you can get them or ring them for some advice.If you do upgrade the whole kit i would ask which one gives you the most choice of pads.PFC also do some great pads and their discs are the best have used in terms of lasting and performance.griff7 said:
To be fair those pads are not that good if you are really pushing on.The 29 is more of an endurance pad so initial bite is not that good and the yellowstuff is a real budget pad.Try a set of Pagid RST1's if you can get them or ring them for some advice.If you do upgrade the whole kit i would ask which one gives you the most choice of pads.PFC also do some great pads and their discs are the best have used in terms of lasting and performance.
Thanks - that's exactly what I was looking for. I'll give them a ring and get some advice.Thanks. After more googling and a couple phone calls I have ordered a set of Pagid RST1 pads and will fit those as well flush brake fluid - using Castrol React SRF Racing Fluid. I'm going to run at Silverstone and see how that goes. Next step would be a Brembo BBK - specifically this one http://www.bigbrakes4u.co.uk/index.php?_a=viewProd... which looks to be a decent price..? (Anyone know of a cheaper source..?) I'm considering front only for cost and weight considerations, bad idea..?
I've ruled out CCMs. Firstly they cost a fortune, secondly while they are lighter than a BBK I don't think the reduction in unsprung weight counts for as much on the track compared to fast road use, thirdly everything I read says they won't do more than a dozen hard track days and I do that every year (well I try to) so that could get very expensive.
Thoughts? Experiences?
I've ruled out CCMs. Firstly they cost a fortune, secondly while they are lighter than a BBK I don't think the reduction in unsprung weight counts for as much on the track compared to fast road use, thirdly everything I read says they won't do more than a dozen hard track days and I do that every year (well I try to) so that could get very expensive.
Thoughts? Experiences?
RS29's have good initial bite, they were developed specifically in response to lots of drivers complaining the RS19 lacked initial bite.
The squeaking you experienced will most likely have been the rears, more often than not due them not having been bedded in properly and getting glazed. I had similar issues when I ran them front and rear in a 996 GT2 and also in an M3 CSL. They're fine on a hard tracked car, but occasional track use with mainly street use had both cars squealing horrendously.
I'd be surprised if BG Developments couldn't do you a better deal on some AP's than the company you've linked to for the supply of the Brembo's.
http://www.bgdevelopments.co.uk
Speak to Dave.
The squeaking you experienced will most likely have been the rears, more often than not due them not having been bedded in properly and getting glazed. I had similar issues when I ran them front and rear in a 996 GT2 and also in an M3 CSL. They're fine on a hard tracked car, but occasional track use with mainly street use had both cars squealing horrendously.
I'd be surprised if BG Developments couldn't do you a better deal on some AP's than the company you've linked to for the supply of the Brembo's.
http://www.bgdevelopments.co.uk
Speak to Dave.
Cheers, thanks for that - I'll give Dave a ring. I'm going to fit the Pagid RST1 pads front and rear this weekend and see how they do at Silverstone. If the rears don't get worked hard enough and glaze I'll switch to softer pads at the back. I've been told that the F430 could do with a bit more front bias on track so if I do go for the BBK I'm thinking to do just the fronts first and see how that feels.
I realise you've already bought some pads - will be interested to hear your feedback, but FWIW, here are my thoughts...
The main issue with the steel brakes is the physical size, they just don't have enough material / heat capacity. using aggressive pads is likely to cause other issues with transferring heat into the hubs etc.
Depending on how you drive, I think the wear of the CCM brakes is massively exaggerated, I've used 10% of the pad/rotor material in 10,000km. as well as several trackdays, 5500km was alpine driving which, in my experience of other cars, is much more punishing on brakes than track use - constant downhill, a lot of brake application and low speed for cooling. In previous years I've used cars with aggressive pads and in one case had to change the front pads mid-trip from new. cooling the CCM system down adequately seems to be key - I always do at least half a lap without using the brakes or 5-10mins after an alpine pass of gentle use to cool them down before parking up.
Can always buy a 2nd hand CCM set of brakes and replace the carbon rotors with steel - there are a few companies in the US doing steel rotor kits and plenty of places like AP in the UK should be able to do the bells and discs I would think. Lots of guys in the US who track their cars regularly do this.
Regarding the front BBK option, I'm not sure how sophisticated the CST/TCS/eDiff/ABS system is, but you may find changing the calipers will not alter the bias as it may be managed by these systems anyway.
Regarding pads, worth confirming the pad material isn't corrosive - some of more aggressive pads are designed for race applications and will damage wheels and paint either through corrosion or the dust coming off the pad at high temperature and melting the paint lacquers. not really a big deal on a race car which is wrapped or repainted regularly, might be more of an issue for a road car.
Let us know how you get on... I was dead-set against CCM brakes because of the cost when I first started looking for a 430, but deeper research combined with the ability to get them resurfaced made me decide to go down that route I'm so far I'm very pleased I did. like everything to do with cars, your mileage my vary!
The main issue with the steel brakes is the physical size, they just don't have enough material / heat capacity. using aggressive pads is likely to cause other issues with transferring heat into the hubs etc.
Depending on how you drive, I think the wear of the CCM brakes is massively exaggerated, I've used 10% of the pad/rotor material in 10,000km. as well as several trackdays, 5500km was alpine driving which, in my experience of other cars, is much more punishing on brakes than track use - constant downhill, a lot of brake application and low speed for cooling. In previous years I've used cars with aggressive pads and in one case had to change the front pads mid-trip from new. cooling the CCM system down adequately seems to be key - I always do at least half a lap without using the brakes or 5-10mins after an alpine pass of gentle use to cool them down before parking up.
Can always buy a 2nd hand CCM set of brakes and replace the carbon rotors with steel - there are a few companies in the US doing steel rotor kits and plenty of places like AP in the UK should be able to do the bells and discs I would think. Lots of guys in the US who track their cars regularly do this.
Regarding the front BBK option, I'm not sure how sophisticated the CST/TCS/eDiff/ABS system is, but you may find changing the calipers will not alter the bias as it may be managed by these systems anyway.
Regarding pads, worth confirming the pad material isn't corrosive - some of more aggressive pads are designed for race applications and will damage wheels and paint either through corrosion or the dust coming off the pad at high temperature and melting the paint lacquers. not really a big deal on a race car which is wrapped or repainted regularly, might be more of an issue for a road car.
Let us know how you get on... I was dead-set against CCM brakes because of the cost when I first started looking for a 430, but deeper research combined with the ability to get them resurfaced made me decide to go down that route I'm so far I'm very pleased I did. like everything to do with cars, your mileage my vary!
Thanks Paul. Supplier rang this evening and told me they were out of RST1 pads so I cancelled the order. I still have the set of RS29s so they will go back on for now after a light sanding and a good dollop of copper paste. Rotors will get a good clean as well. I think you are right regarding heat dissipation and I reckon larger rotors are really the answer be they steels or CCMs which as you say can be swapped out for steel rotors if/when needed. Steels on for track use, CCMs back in for tours. I love experimenting and luckily I have a lift at home to make it all easier.
For me tracking these cars is the best way to fully appreciate their performance capabilities although I also thoroughly enjoy weekend country jaunts at saner speeds. I don't think a Ferrari should be 'modded' but improving aspects like brakes and suspension is of interest and relatively easy and inexpensive. I've lowered my car to Scud geometry which helped eliminate understeer and replaced ball joints and track/tie rod ends with the Hills alternatives. I've found wheel bearings to be another 'consumable' if you track a fair bit but they are also easy to replace as needed. Other than that the car thrives on being driven as intended and apart from regular fluid changes there's not much else to worry about.
For me tracking these cars is the best way to fully appreciate their performance capabilities although I also thoroughly enjoy weekend country jaunts at saner speeds. I don't think a Ferrari should be 'modded' but improving aspects like brakes and suspension is of interest and relatively easy and inexpensive. I've lowered my car to Scud geometry which helped eliminate understeer and replaced ball joints and track/tie rod ends with the Hills alternatives. I've found wheel bearings to be another 'consumable' if you track a fair bit but they are also easy to replace as needed. Other than that the car thrives on being driven as intended and apart from regular fluid changes there's not much else to worry about.
just came across this: https://surfacetransforms.com/
looks interesting! OEM fitment on Koenigsegg Regera and Agera and tech partner for the AM RB-001.
Pricing looks reasonable and UK based.
Anyone know much about them or the tech? looks like a generation on from CCM/CCB composites.
looks interesting! OEM fitment on Koenigsegg Regera and Agera and tech partner for the AM RB-001.
Pricing looks reasonable and UK based.
Anyone know much about them or the tech? looks like a generation on from CCM/CCB composites.
Finally got round to this. Am going with a 380mm set on the front from BG Developments. They are AP Racing 6 pot calipers and rotors and BGD will manufacture custom hats to fit - I am sending them a hub and wheel for measurements. Works out almost half the cost of the Brembo kit. BTW once mine have been made the same design can be used for all F430 orders in future - i.e. no need to send stuff for measuring. I'm dealing with Alex - fantastic knowledge and BGD have been making racing brakes for over 30 years. (http://www.bgdevelopments.co.uk) Leaving the back for now - all advice says not needed.
Taking the opportunity to do a thorough clean of the suspension and underbody. Anyone have a recommendation for protective spray/wax/oil once done?
Taking the opportunity to do a thorough clean of the suspension and underbody. Anyone have a recommendation for protective spray/wax/oil once done?
Decided to go with ACF-50 for corrosion protection on the suspension components. No wax/oily-ness etc and highly recommended. Removing the original brake lines in order to fit braided ones has been a real bugger. Not only were the nuts seized but Ferrari decided to mount the join directly behind the shock. After plenty of WD-40 and application of heat I still couldn't loosen them so the hard pipe was sacrificed and new ones have been ordered. Haven't done the rears yet but after googling have bought a can of PlusGas in the hope of being able to loosen the rears successfully. Also taking the opportunity to clean and re-lube the ball joints.
430 up in the air still while BGD manufacture the hats and brackets. A good opportunity to take a gander underneath and inspect and clean. Interesting, with the wheels off and both ends lifted there is very little weight on the front stands - almost balances around the rear lifting points. Also a good reason to make more use of the 612 - properly enjoying it this summer for once.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 20th June 10:44
Cerberaherts said:
Forget the plusgas. Get yourself a spray bottle. Knock up a 50/50 mix of acetone and dextron 3 (ATF oil) and spray it over the seized bits. Then sit back and wait a few hours. I've shifted some very very corroded and seized bits on many cars over the years with this..... 
That is a great tip. That F1 oil is the most viscous stuff I have ever come across.Gassing Station | Ferrari V8 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff