Private sale 458 or 430 scuderia?
Discussion
Don't know about the finance, but I think for a lot of people it's about peace of mind when selling/spending c£100-£200k (well it has been for me anyway). By last two Ferrari's (430 & 458 Italia) were both sold back to the main dealer I bought them from and I was offered strong bids. Certainly not enough to warrant the hassle of trying to sell privately. My wife would have a fit at the thought of inviting strangers to our home to 'consider' buying. Also I think the official dealers are keen to get back good stock to sell-on, I.e. 'The gift that keeps giving'.
Advertised mark-up on my two cars has been £13k &£15.5k, which I think is very reasonable given the 2 year factory warranty added (c£6k) I also had an unusual on-going issue with my 458, which could have been a nightmare to sort without the dealer support and goodwill, who I must add have been excellent. Obviously there is a cost for this peace of mind, but for me, to date, it has been worth paying. Finally, from what I've seen in the classifieds I don't think there is much of a spread in prices between dealers and private.
Advertised mark-up on my two cars has been £13k &£15.5k, which I think is very reasonable given the 2 year factory warranty added (c£6k) I also had an unusual on-going issue with my 458, which could have been a nightmare to sort without the dealer support and goodwill, who I must add have been excellent. Obviously there is a cost for this peace of mind, but for me, to date, it has been worth paying. Finally, from what I've seen in the classifieds I don't think there is much of a spread in prices between dealers and private.
The market is such that trade bids are very strong at the moment. I was offered more for my 458 from a main dealer than I paid for it the year prior, which was a surprise. It is also a ridiculously easy and reassuring process - they collect the car, they deposit the money in your account. No worries about test pilots or anything.
At this level also I think the majority of people will be wanting finance (nothing to do with affordability), and a big glass fronted building they can walk into and shout at someone if they need to.
At this level also I think the majority of people will be wanting finance (nothing to do with affordability), and a big glass fronted building they can walk into and shout at someone if they need to.
I've had my open for a while. Private cars pop up, but the asking prices are rarely any cheaper than dealer prices which as stated above includes a very handy 2 year warranty. Same goes for specialists selling them, often have some generic 6 month warranty on them but the same asking prices. Confuses me.
theRossatron said:
I've had my open for a while. Private cars pop up, but the asking prices are rarely any cheaper than dealer prices which as stated above includes a very handy 2 year warranty. Same goes for specialists selling them, often have some generic 6 month warranty on them but the same asking prices. Confuses me.
Yes, the spread between private and garage prices for all cars now is surprisingly small. Really does not make a lot of sense to buy private at the 100k+ level for most folks.If private and retail prices are virtually identical then I would buy trade too (due to ease and more protection).I had thoughy that there was between 10 and 20% margin between the price a trader bought for and the sale price. 20% being main dealer with 2 yr warranty and 10% being an Indy trader. Am I way off the mark? If we really are talking about a couple of grand, then I may as well give up looking and go trader/dealer route!
WDISMYL said:
Aren't most cars effectively private, because they are SoR sitting on the dealer's forecourt? Isn't it all a bit of an illusion? How much stock sitting on the forecourt is actually owned by the dealer?
Certainly, with regards the dealer I use, all used vehicles purchased outright and not SOR. Outside of the official franchises I expect this to be somewhat different?Edited by garystoybox on Monday 20th February 13:08
Chris355 said:
I'm looking at 458's and lhd 430 scuderia. Do people sell these privately very often? I'm finding literally a handful that are private. Is this due to a lot of people wanting to finance them? Does anyone know what trade/dealer margin is?
Dealer margin is of the order of 15% before his costs.The majority (but not all) dealer stock over £100k is SoR.
I think you can use this to your advantage.
Rationale - Dealer margin is usually circa 15% so a dealer with an SoR car on his forecourt for say £150k has probably offered the owner around 15% less so £127/128K.
Offer dealer £130k, he'll say "no, not in a million years blah blah blah...." Just INSIST he speaks to the owner, stress you'll shake on it now and commit with a deposit and if the answers 'no' you'll go and see 'the other one' that you're interested in, but you'd really prefer his as the other one is not 'quite' as low miles/as nice a colour/further away etc but its cheaper and you've agreed a price on the phone subject to seeing it tomorrow. (If you've got a print-out of another car similar to his then that always help)
Stress if the owners says 'no' that's fine, 'but just ask him'.
You've no idea how keen the seller is to sell, and you might be pleasantly surprised to get a 'yes' in reply.
£20k discount on a dealer owned car...VERY unlikely, £20k off asking price of a SoR....maybe.
I think you can use this to your advantage.
Rationale - Dealer margin is usually circa 15% so a dealer with an SoR car on his forecourt for say £150k has probably offered the owner around 15% less so £127/128K.
Offer dealer £130k, he'll say "no, not in a million years blah blah blah...." Just INSIST he speaks to the owner, stress you'll shake on it now and commit with a deposit and if the answers 'no' you'll go and see 'the other one' that you're interested in, but you'd really prefer his as the other one is not 'quite' as low miles/as nice a colour/further away etc but its cheaper and you've agreed a price on the phone subject to seeing it tomorrow. (If you've got a print-out of another car similar to his then that always help)
Stress if the owners says 'no' that's fine, 'but just ask him'.
You've no idea how keen the seller is to sell, and you might be pleasantly surprised to get a 'yes' in reply.
£20k discount on a dealer owned car...VERY unlikely, £20k off asking price of a SoR....maybe.
100 IAN said:
The majority (but not all) dealer stock over £100k is SoR.
I think you can use this to your advantage.
Rationale - Dealer margin is usually circa 15% so a dealer with an SoR car on his forecourt for say £150k has probably offered the owner around 15% less so £127/128K.
Offer dealer £130k, he'll say "no, not in a million years blah blah blah...." Just INSIST he speaks to the owner, stress you'll shake on it now and commit with a deposit and if the answers 'no' you'll go and see 'the other one' that you're interested in, but you'd really prefer his as the other one is not 'quite' as low miles/as nice a colour/further away etc but its cheaper and you've agreed a price on the phone subject to seeing it tomorrow. (If you've got a print-out of another car similar to his then that always help)
Stress if the owners says 'no' that's fine, 'but just ask him'.
You've no idea how keen the seller is to sell, and you might be pleasantly surprised to get a 'yes' in reply.
£20k discount on a dealer owned car...VERY unlikely, £20k off asking price of a SoR....maybe.
Ian,I think you can use this to your advantage.
Rationale - Dealer margin is usually circa 15% so a dealer with an SoR car on his forecourt for say £150k has probably offered the owner around 15% less so £127/128K.
Offer dealer £130k, he'll say "no, not in a million years blah blah blah...." Just INSIST he speaks to the owner, stress you'll shake on it now and commit with a deposit and if the answers 'no' you'll go and see 'the other one' that you're interested in, but you'd really prefer his as the other one is not 'quite' as low miles/as nice a colour/further away etc but its cheaper and you've agreed a price on the phone subject to seeing it tomorrow. (If you've got a print-out of another car similar to his then that always help)
Stress if the owners says 'no' that's fine, 'but just ask him'.
You've no idea how keen the seller is to sell, and you might be pleasantly surprised to get a 'yes' in reply.
£20k discount on a dealer owned car...VERY unlikely, £20k off asking price of a SoR....maybe.
Sorry, but you are wrong.......a dealer may have 15% margin in a stock owned car....but not an SoR car.
I sold a car for £126k via The Supercar Rooms for a flat £5k SoR fee...........think Alastair Bols is about £4k.....certainly not £18k (15%!).
If a dealer invests their own money into a car, they will naturally look to buy at the lowest possible point and sell at the highest, to attain their 15% margin.
The whole benefit of SoR is so that the dealer does not have to use their own money to buy the car and the seller does not have to sell at the stupidly low trade values.....sellers gets near retail price and dealer earns circa £5k for taking some photo's and listing the car for sale....
I'm no apologist for the car trade however some (not all) of the maths quoted here is a bit optimistic
- I sold a £136k car via SOR recently - the SOR fee was £4K (inc VAT),.
I think it's unlikely that I could have got over £130k if if I tried to sell it privately (the dealer not only has a great customer reach, reputation but also could also be much more accomadating to the buyers needs.....i.e. Test drive, finance, inspection etc etc)
So I could have sold for £130k private (and made £1k LESS )for a huge amount more hassle
As part of my job, I get to see a few genenue cost prices paid for cars (that are for sale at dealers)
This is a typical set of numbers
Bought (cash/trade In) £160k
Prep, warranty, transport, service - £5k
Retail price - £179k
So margin (after prep) is circa 8% (inc the VAT)
This is probably a car that would be advertised for circa £170k private
The buyer could potentially buy it from a private seller for what 5% less ??
- I sold a £136k car via SOR recently - the SOR fee was £4K (inc VAT),.
I think it's unlikely that I could have got over £130k if if I tried to sell it privately (the dealer not only has a great customer reach, reputation but also could also be much more accomadating to the buyers needs.....i.e. Test drive, finance, inspection etc etc)
So I could have sold for £130k private (and made £1k LESS )for a huge amount more hassle
As part of my job, I get to see a few genenue cost prices paid for cars (that are for sale at dealers)
This is a typical set of numbers
Bought (cash/trade In) £160k
Prep, warranty, transport, service - £5k
Retail price - £179k
So margin (after prep) is circa 8% (inc the VAT)
This is probably a car that would be advertised for circa £170k private
The buyer could potentially buy it from a private seller for what 5% less ??
Sarnie said:
Ian,
Sorry, but you are wrong.......a dealer may have 15% margin in a stock owned car....but not an SoR car.
I sold a car for £126k via The Supercar Rooms for a flat £5k SoR fee...........think Alastair Bols is about £4k.....certainly not £18k (15%!).
If a dealer invests their own money into a car, they will naturally look to buy at the lowest possible point and sell at the highest, to attain their 15% margin.
The whole benefit of SoR is so that the dealer does not have to use their own money to buy the car and the seller does not have to sell at the stupidly low trade values.....sellers gets near retail price and dealer earns circa £5k for taking some photo's and listing the car for sale....
I not sure that's what Ian meant. I think he's saying the owner would have been offered the dealer buy-in price of retail less 15% margin and declined it as too low. Anything over that is an improvement, so Ian is saying there could be scope for a good deal somewhere in that range. One would need to allow for the SoR fee also so north of buy-in plus SoR fee in this example. Sorry, but you are wrong.......a dealer may have 15% margin in a stock owned car....but not an SoR car.
I sold a car for £126k via The Supercar Rooms for a flat £5k SoR fee...........think Alastair Bols is about £4k.....certainly not £18k (15%!).
If a dealer invests their own money into a car, they will naturally look to buy at the lowest possible point and sell at the highest, to attain their 15% margin.
The whole benefit of SoR is so that the dealer does not have to use their own money to buy the car and the seller does not have to sell at the stupidly low trade values.....sellers gets near retail price and dealer earns circa £5k for taking some photo's and listing the car for sale....
I sold a Scud privately in summer 2015. The market was frothy, retail was c210k and I was offered 155-170 by dealers. They all had too much stock that wasn't shifting but nobody wanted to take down list price. I sold at 180 privately. Everyone was happy.
Exactly as jimmyslr says.
Those that instantly think what i'm saying is rubbish, don't be too hasty.
I've made 'cheeky' low-ball offers on SoR cars and been successful a couple of times, much more successful than on dealer owned cars!
Suppose jimmyslr had put his Scud up SoR with a dealer who was asking £210k. Someone like me who cheekily offers £25k less than asking (£185k), dealer puts offer to owner less his SoR commission fee and owner replies 'yes alright I'll accept £180k'
jimmyslr gets his £180k and buyer gets Scud for £185k when dealer was asking £210k
Trust me, I've done it.
Those that instantly think what i'm saying is rubbish, don't be too hasty.
I've made 'cheeky' low-ball offers on SoR cars and been successful a couple of times, much more successful than on dealer owned cars!
Suppose jimmyslr had put his Scud up SoR with a dealer who was asking £210k. Someone like me who cheekily offers £25k less than asking (£185k), dealer puts offer to owner less his SoR commission fee and owner replies 'yes alright I'll accept £180k'
jimmyslr gets his £180k and buyer gets Scud for £185k when dealer was asking £210k
Trust me, I've done it.
Edited by 100 IAN on Sunday 26th February 08:39
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