Automated single clutch gearboxes will be remembered fondly
Discussion
Spent three glorious hours in this area on Monday. Beautiful day, miles of (relatively) empty country roads, good visibility, windows down , traction control off, no set destination, just squirt and go. After reading the recent Speciale thread, and setting a number in my head at which point I would trade up, I came home with a smile on my face and my love for the 430 and it's F1 gearbox restored. I feel now that the chase for millisecond gear shifts has reached a similar point to 0-60 times, it's incredibly impressive but no longer adds further to real world enjoyment of the driving experience outside of a track. I'm not saying it's not enjoyable, just that I think we have reached a peak and it's not incrementally more enjoyable than the automated single clutch systems installed in modern classics like Ferrari's F1, Lamborghini's e-gear or Aston's SportShift.
I have a manual 911, and I love that gearbox, but yesterday confirmed to me that the F1 is perfectly suited to the 430 and that the combination will go down as one of Ferrari's greats. When you are on a twisty, lumpy B-road, requiring your full concentration to pick out the best line and sight the road ahead through the trees, the joy of pulling paddles to shift while still having to match revs to keep the car balanced as you would with a manual is pure driving nirvana. It's feet, hands and eyes all in the perfect place but still coupled to the source of that glorious noise filling the cockpit from behind you. Absolute magic.
It takes a while to properly understand the F1, but once you realise that it need to be driven like a manual, with throttle lifts on upshifts and blips on downshifts, it then all makes perfect sense. It takes some practise to perfect, but when performed correctly you can still affect the way the car accepts each new gear in much the way that you can with a manual. You can't do that with a DCT and because of that I think you lose some of the connection to the car. Yes i totally get that the constant acceleration is mind blowing but doesn't that just inevitably lead to a completely seamless transmission as in an EV?
So this is not to criticise any other gearbox, they all (well most of them) have their relative merits, rather just to point out what an amazing job Ferrari and others did with the AMT, and that, at least in my opinion, history will treat it very kindly indeed. And, if you're on here, cheers to the red Testarossa - looking good!
Glad to hear you are enjoying the F1 sir, I too think it's a great gearbox (stunning in fact in the Scud) - however...
Not sure if I agree with this?
"It takes a while to properly understand the F1, but once you realise that it need to be driven like a manual, with throttle lifts on upshifts and blips on downshifts, it then all makes perfect sense. It takes some practise to perfect, but when performed correctly you can still affect the way the car accepts each new gear in much the way that you can with a manual."
- F1 on the way up can be (actually always is) driven flat stick with no need to lift
- F1 on the way down does all the blipping for you.
There really is nothing to 'learn' in terms of application...
Not sure if I agree with this?
"It takes a while to properly understand the F1, but once you realise that it need to be driven like a manual, with throttle lifts on upshifts and blips on downshifts, it then all makes perfect sense. It takes some practise to perfect, but when performed correctly you can still affect the way the car accepts each new gear in much the way that you can with a manual."
- F1 on the way up can be (actually always is) driven flat stick with no need to lift
- F1 on the way down does all the blipping for you.
There really is nothing to 'learn' in terms of application...
Slickhillsy said:
Glad to hear you are enjoying the F1 sir, I too think it's a great gearbox (stunning in fact in the Scud) - however...
Not sure if I agree with this?
"It takes a while to properly understand the F1, but once you realise that it need to be driven like a manual, with throttle lifts on upshifts and blips on downshifts, it then all makes perfect sense. It takes some practise to perfect, but when performed correctly you can still affect the way the car accepts each new gear in much the way that you can with a manual."
- F1 on the way up can be (actually always is) driven flat stick with no need to lift
- F1 on the way down does all the blipping for you.
There really is nothing to 'learn' in terms of application...
Thank you - yes loving it as you can tell. I agree it can be driven like that, but I have found that fine tuning and playing with it a bit re-introduces a lot of feel, and can definitely make a difference to the cars behaviour when make fast progress over country roads. You're not always going to have your foot flat when using the pedals to balance the car, and this extends to gear shifts as well. At least that's what I have found. Bear in mind I'm talking specifically about UK B-roads here, a very different proposition to motorway or track driving. Give it a go.Not sure if I agree with this?
"It takes a while to properly understand the F1, but once you realise that it need to be driven like a manual, with throttle lifts on upshifts and blips on downshifts, it then all makes perfect sense. It takes some practise to perfect, but when performed correctly you can still affect the way the car accepts each new gear in much the way that you can with a manual."
- F1 on the way up can be (actually always is) driven flat stick with no need to lift
- F1 on the way down does all the blipping for you.
There really is nothing to 'learn' in terms of application...
thecook101 said:
Slickhillsy said:
Glad to hear you are enjoying the F1 sir, I too think it's a great gearbox (stunning in fact in the Scud) - however...
Not sure if I agree with this?
"It takes a while to properly understand the F1, but once you realise that it need to be driven like a manual, with throttle lifts on upshifts and blips on downshifts, it then all makes perfect sense. It takes some practise to perfect, but when performed correctly you can still affect the way the car accepts each new gear in much the way that you can with a manual."
- F1 on the way up can be (actually always is) driven flat stick with no need to lift
- F1 on the way down does all the blipping for you.
There really is nothing to 'learn' in terms of application...
Thank you - yes loving it as you can tell. I agree it can be driven like that, but I have found that fine tuning and playing with it a bit re-introduces a lot of feel, and can definitely make a difference to the cars behaviour when make fast progress over country roads. You're not always going to have your foot flat when using the pedals to balance the car, and this extends to gear shifts as well. At least that's what I have found. Bear in mind I'm talking specifically about UK B-roads here, a very different proposition to motorway or track driving. Give it a go.Not sure if I agree with this?
"It takes a while to properly understand the F1, but once you realise that it need to be driven like a manual, with throttle lifts on upshifts and blips on downshifts, it then all makes perfect sense. It takes some practise to perfect, but when performed correctly you can still affect the way the car accepts each new gear in much the way that you can with a manual."
- F1 on the way up can be (actually always is) driven flat stick with no need to lift
- F1 on the way down does all the blipping for you.
There really is nothing to 'learn' in terms of application...
I even read that the 991 GT3 RS had an 'under 100 Milliseconds shift' which still has some way to go to get near the brutal 60 Millisecond shift in the Scud…
Slickhillsy said:
But Im not talking about driving 10 / 10 everywhere. I've driven over 10K miles in my Scud and would say I've never lifted off to go up the box once... (or blipped it to go down either) - Thats the beauty of these well resolved F1 boxes, they take care of all that for you.
I even read that the 991 GT3 RS had an 'under 100 Milliseconds shift' which still has some way to go to get near the brutal 60 Millisecond shift in the Scud…
You may well be right with the Scud - mine's a 2005 and no-where near as fast. Let's swap for a week or so and we can compare I even read that the 991 GT3 RS had an 'under 100 Milliseconds shift' which still has some way to go to get near the brutal 60 Millisecond shift in the Scud…
A Scud is definitely on my list.This may be exactly my point though, the slower actuator in the early F1 boxes gives you a small window to influence the change, and in the chase to make everything quicker this may have been lost. I know you don't have to intervene but I don't want the car to take care of everything for me. The automated blip on downshift for example, I can leave the car to do that but man, if I dab it myself, it's blam! blam! blam! all the way down into the corner, keeping the revs higher and the engine sweeter for the push into oversteer. The manual 911 gives me complete control of this of course but it's doesn't dance the way the 430 does. The F1, to me, is a great combination of the thrill of both.
thecook101 said:
Slickhillsy said:
But Im not talking about driving 10 / 10 everywhere. I've driven over 10K miles in my Scud and would say I've never lifted off to go up the box once... (or blipped it to go down either) - Thats the beauty of these well resolved F1 boxes, they take care of all that for you.
I even read that the 991 GT3 RS had an 'under 100 Milliseconds shift' which still has some way to go to get near the brutal 60 Millisecond shift in the Scud…
You may well be right with the Scud - mine's a 2005 and no-where near as fast. Let's swap for a week or so and we can compare I even read that the 991 GT3 RS had an 'under 100 Milliseconds shift' which still has some way to go to get near the brutal 60 Millisecond shift in the Scud…
A Scud is definitely on my list.This may be exactly my point though, the slower actuator in the early F1 boxes gives you a small window to influence the change, and in the chase to make everything quicker this may have been lost. I know you don't have to intervene but I don't want the car to take care of everything for me. The automated blip on downshift for example, I can leave the car to do that but man, if I dab it myself, it's blam! blam! blam! all the way down into the corner, keeping the revs higher and the engine sweeter for the push into oversteer. The manual 911 gives me complete control of this of course but it's doesn't dance the way the 430 does. The F1, to me, is a great combination of the thrill of both.
The F1 superfast II gearbox in the Scuderia is simply the best IMHO. Really suits the car with a fast and racey proper gear change.
Feels like a manual change in that its not super smooth but it is also very fast
DSG's are great super fast and so smooth but the superfast II is just that little more involving and racier feeling.
Girlfriend properly wouldn't agree but hey I don't have room for passengers
Feels like a manual change in that its not super smooth but it is also very fast
DSG's are great super fast and so smooth but the superfast II is just that little more involving and racier feeling.
Girlfriend properly wouldn't agree but hey I don't have room for passengers
Edited by RamboLambo on Tuesday 30th August 20:14
Slickhillsy said:
But Im not talking about driving 10 / 10 everywhere. I've driven over 10K miles in my Scud and would say I've never lifted off to go up the box once... (or blipped it to go down either) - Thats the beauty of these well resolved F1 boxes, they take care of all that for you.
I even read that the 991 GT3 RS had an 'under 100 Milliseconds shift' which still has some way to go to get near the brutal 60 Millisecond shift in the Scud…
I tend to lift off when changing up - not sure why. Maybe I think it will prolong the life of the clutch. Funny thing, I find the gear changes smoother in Race mode compared to the default Sport setting. I do agree it is a fantastic gearbox and the sheer brutality of it suits the Scuderia. On the track it is brilliant and you do need to think about downchanges a bit more than in a DSG but obviously not as much as in a manual.I even read that the 991 GT3 RS had an 'under 100 Milliseconds shift' which still has some way to go to get near the brutal 60 Millisecond shift in the Scud…
I do need to try one of these boxes, preferably in a Scud (Edit: or a 599 GTO if those ever become affordable again) at some point. Still think I will prefer a manual, but it might still be worthwhile owning one with an automated manual as well.
I suspect they work better for cars that one tends to drive aggressively as opposed to a car for a leisurely country drive / commuting through a city etc.?
I suspect they work better for cars that one tends to drive aggressively as opposed to a car for a leisurely country drive / commuting through a city etc.?
Totally agree with the OP regarding the special and rewarding nature of the F1 gearbox. Timing a succession of downshifts on the approach to a roundabout so they occur at around 3000 rpm is the most amazing sound with exhaust valves unplugged.
I'm fortunate enough to have GT-R as a daily driver. The relentless power delivery via all-wheel-drive and dual clutch gearbox is astonishing but the F430 is laugh out loud brilliant.
Disagree about the roads around Bicester though. I live there. They're crap! Always head into the Cotswolds myself. I reckon Hammering up Fish Hill near Broadway is about as good as it gets on UK roads
I'm fortunate enough to have GT-R as a daily driver. The relentless power delivery via all-wheel-drive and dual clutch gearbox is astonishing but the F430 is laugh out loud brilliant.
Disagree about the roads around Bicester though. I live there. They're crap! Always head into the Cotswolds myself. I reckon Hammering up Fish Hill near Broadway is about as good as it gets on UK roads
Beggars can't be choosers. In fairness it depends on what you are looking for. I like the point and squirt experience of driving down empty, twisty B roads with some loose surface every now and then to unsettle the car, a couple off camber bends etc. The right road will dish up bucket loads of enjoyment without having to go too fast. 1st/2nd/3rd gear, car squirming under braking, rear breaking free accelerating out of tight corners - can all be done safely without endangering others or the car. The top right of that map is perfect for that - Padbury, Steeple Claydon, Poundon, Grendon Underwood. Quick blast then slowly through the villages. Also the 4011 from Long Crendon up to the A41. Try coming off at Oakley and then head for Stanton St John (think it's called Mill Road) - narrow, lumpy, twisty, empty, brilliant. For a bit more open road take the 4027 through Islip up to Enstone. Needs to be done fairly early in the morning though.Cheers for the Fish Hill tip though - will definitely try that.
Totally agree with this.
While the modern Double Clutch Gearboxs are better in almost every conceivable way, I just do not like the way they almost "slush" between gears on the up shift.
In most cases sounding like an automatic transmission.
The F1 Box is so much crisper and each upchange has that lovely clear definition about it.
I bought my F430 with the intention of it being a stepping stone to a 458 Italia.
However the more I live with my F430 the more I love it, and the less I want to switch to the 458.
Yes the Italia is a better car in every way, but I just prefer that slightly more raw edge of the F430.
Anyway, to satisfy your lust for crisp F1 up changes here are a couple of GoPro moments from the back of mine.
Enjoy...............
http://youtu.be/v1PAFuweto8
http://youtu.be/Po5k8QE5XWE
While the modern Double Clutch Gearboxs are better in almost every conceivable way, I just do not like the way they almost "slush" between gears on the up shift.
In most cases sounding like an automatic transmission.
The F1 Box is so much crisper and each upchange has that lovely clear definition about it.
I bought my F430 with the intention of it being a stepping stone to a 458 Italia.
However the more I live with my F430 the more I love it, and the less I want to switch to the 458.
Yes the Italia is a better car in every way, but I just prefer that slightly more raw edge of the F430.
Anyway, to satisfy your lust for crisp F1 up changes here are a couple of GoPro moments from the back of mine.
Enjoy...............
http://youtu.be/v1PAFuweto8
http://youtu.be/Po5k8QE5XWE
Edited by Overhaul on Thursday 1st September 10:31
Edited by Overhaul on Thursday 1st September 13:38
Those video's demonstrate it well - the upshifts have have a distinct sound that adds to the character of the engine, compared to something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDsXXLej-KA where it plays a role only insofar as how quick it is. Plenty has been gained of course, but something has definitely been lost.
I must admit I am very happy with the F1 on my 355. I really wanted a manual but it was not happening and an F1 came up and I am glad I took a risk on it. I enjoy the gearbox and its got a lot of character and I also have a car with PDK and I enjoy the F1 much more. I think the gated shift is defo special and if I could have got the manual I would have but so many other cars are also manual and Ferrari produced the F1 for a fairly short space of time, what 15 years?
I think in 20-30 years it will be interesting to see what the view is.
I think in 20-30 years it will be interesting to see what the view is.
red_duke said:
Always head into the Cotswolds myself. I reckon Hammering up Fish Hill near Broadway is about as good as it gets on UK roads
Really ?? And I mean that, really ???? Firstly it takes all of what ? 2 minutes to drive up in something quick, added to which it's frequently encumbered with individuals dawdling around at 40mph....
If you genuinely think that's as good as it gets on UK roads you need to get out more ! ! (or alternatively drop me a PM and I'll make you some recommendations for some proper driving roads.
And as you're not far from the Cotswolds I suggest you try the B4437 heading South West from Charlbury to the A361 at Fullbrook Hill for starters.....
Having done that short section (still many times longer than Fish Hill mind....) I'd head up to Banbury and take the Welsh road (the B4525) from the A422 at Middleton Cheney to the A43 Syresham.
Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 5th September 20:34
Slippydiff said:
Really ?? And I mean that, really ???? Firstly it takes all of what ? 2 minutes to drive up in something quick, added to which it's frequently encumbered with individuals dawdling around at 40mph....
The uphill run at Fish Hill is dual carriageway. I've never been stuck behind anything.Slippydiff said:
I'd head up to Banbury and take the Welsh road (the B4525) from the A422 at Middleton Cheney to the A43 Syresham]
Nah. I live in Brackley so the road you describe is in my back yard. It's always clogged up with tractors, farm trucks and pensioners!Gassing Station | Ferrari V8 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff