F430 Manifold again
Discussion
Purchased my Spider about 3 months ago. At the time of purchase I asked regarding the manifolds and was informed that there was no documentation, but as the car was 9 years old and completed 26K the manifolds must have been changed. So purchased the car but I was getting concerned after reading all the horror stories so to make sure I booked the car in to Dove House which very is local to me and Ed their put it on the lift to have an inspection and pronounced them all good, and original i.e. Mark 1's. There was some bad news as Ed found the Air Con Pump was shot, so a £1300.bill was generated. Not a problem as the car had a Warranty Wise warranty. Speak as you find and W.Wise paid out £1K, not sure why they deducted £300 but I was happy to get a contribution. So my enquiry is that I am thinking of fitting the Capristo brackets at the rear end of the exhaust to enable the system to expand etc. As the manifolds are OK should I leave well alone, I am assuming that at some time I will replace the manifolds with probably Capristo so I will have part paid for the new manifolds, or I will have a spare set of brackets which I could sell. What do you think?
They are a ticking time bomb IMO. You may get lucky and not have them fail, you may get lucky and catch a failed manifold before the engine sucks in part of the car. But then again you may not.
For the cost of aftermarket manifolds (from £1,500) I view it as cheap insurance.
PS: It is also cheap HP. Removing the pre-cats puts the car over 500bhp.
For the cost of aftermarket manifolds (from £1,500) I view it as cheap insurance.
PS: It is also cheap HP. Removing the pre-cats puts the car over 500bhp.
voicey said:
For the cost of aftermarket manifolds (from £1,500) I view it as cheap insurance.
Hey Aldous. Are your Agency Power manifolds causing any overheating problems in the engine bay yet?I'm thinking of going aftermarket if/when my MK II manifolds give up but hate the insulating blankets that come with Capristo headers. I think I'd rather use ceramic coated Fabspeed/Agency Power.
Edited by red_duke on Sunday 18th January 21:37
red_duke]oicey said:
For the cost of aftermarket manifolds (from £1,500)
I'm thinking of going aftermarket if/when my MK II manifolds give up but hate the insulating blankets that come with Capristo headers.
Why? They're not even visible, if they were then yes it would be a shame to cover them.I'm thinking of going aftermarket if/when my MK II manifolds give up but hate the insulating blankets that come with Capristo headers.
Russell996 said:
red_duke said:
I'm thinking of going aftermarket if/when my MK II manifolds give up but hate the insulating blankets that come with Capristo headers.
Why? They're not even visible, if they were then yes it would be a shame to cover them.These are beautiful cars and Capristo blankets are like slapping an Elastoplast/Band-Aid on them.
red_duke said:
No offence Russell by I think they look hideous. Particularly when they age and get covered in dust and grime.
These are beautiful cars and Capristo blankets are like slapping an Elastoplast/Band-Aid on them.
Well I totally agree, without blankets they are a work of art - but how can you see the manifolds on a 430?These are beautiful cars and Capristo blankets are like slapping an Elastoplast/Band-Aid on them.
My understanding is that the blankets are superior to other options to keep the engine bay cool and to use your analogy, I would prefer to wear a hidden band aid if it protected my expensive suit from a wound bleeding!
I have owned my 06 430 spider for almost 2 years now had manifolds failure and now I have on capristo manifolds with the heat shields + the capristo exhaust and tailpipes (non-valved version) so let me give you my thoughts.
The power gain with the capristo can be noticed straight away in the car, especially in the mid range. The car is much more responsive now and can feel that the engine is breathing easier. from having the original manifolds side by side the capristo ones, the capristo just look so much better in terms of build quality. The capristos are a bit bigger so not as easy to fit them as the originals. Autofficina fitted mine.
One thing though with my current system, the car is significantly louder. I kept the original manifolds and the rest of the exhaust system. Had the same thinking at the time to sell the originals to fund the capristo, and if I am to go through the 430 buying process again now I would probably look for after market manifolds. however, after getting into the car and seeing how much louder it is I realized that it probably isn't to everyone's taste so when time comes to sell the car (struggling to see that happening though, until at least the 458s are more affordable!) can then have the option and will sell either as there will always be demand for 430 manifolds!
hope that helps.
The power gain with the capristo can be noticed straight away in the car, especially in the mid range. The car is much more responsive now and can feel that the engine is breathing easier. from having the original manifolds side by side the capristo ones, the capristo just look so much better in terms of build quality. The capristos are a bit bigger so not as easy to fit them as the originals. Autofficina fitted mine.
One thing though with my current system, the car is significantly louder. I kept the original manifolds and the rest of the exhaust system. Had the same thinking at the time to sell the originals to fund the capristo, and if I am to go through the 430 buying process again now I would probably look for after market manifolds. however, after getting into the car and seeing how much louder it is I realized that it probably isn't to everyone's taste so when time comes to sell the car (struggling to see that happening though, until at least the 458s are more affordable!) can then have the option and will sell either as there will always be demand for 430 manifolds!
hope that helps.
voicey said:
They are a ticking time bomb IMO. You may get lucky and not have them fail, you may get lucky and catch a failed manifold before the engine sucks in part of the car. But then again you may not.
For the cost of aftermarket manifolds (from £1,500) I view it as cheap insurance.
There are hundreds and hundreds of documented manifold replacements after they have failed. But how often has this failure resulted in something being sucked into the engine and causing damage? As the failure is usually picked up at annual service, often thousands of miles are driven before replacements are fitted.For the cost of aftermarket manifolds (from £1,500) I view it as cheap insurance.
In all the forum discussions on this subject, I've never seen a post along the lines of 'my manifolds failed, engine sucked something into engine and it blew up'.
So does anyone know the reality on this one? On the face of it the £1500 insurance premium could be very expensive insurance!?
red_duke said:
Hey Aldous. Are your Agency Power manifolds causing any overheating problems in the engine bay yet?
I'm thinking of going aftermarket if/when my MK II manifolds give up but hate the insulating blankets that come with Capristo headers. I think I'd rather use ceramic coated Fabspeed/Agency Power.
No overheating issues whatsoever. If I were to do this again, I'd buy the AP manifolds bare and send them off to Zircotec. Mine were coated in the US but I wasn't sure of the quality so wanted to be able to send them back if I wasn't happy.I'm thinking of going aftermarket if/when my MK II manifolds give up but hate the insulating blankets that come with Capristo headers. I think I'd rather use ceramic coated Fabspeed/Agency Power.
roygarth said:
There are hundreds and hundreds of documented manifold replacements after they have failed. But how often has this failure resulted in something being sucked into the engine and causing damage? As the failure is usually picked up at annual service, often thousands of miles are driven before replacements are fitted.
In all the forum discussions on this subject, I've never seen a post along the lines of 'my manifolds failed, engine sucked something into engine and it blew up'.
So does anyone know the reality on this one? On the face of it the £1500 insurance premium could be very expensive insurance!?
There are some documented cases over on FChat. However, the reason you don't hear about it is because owners don't like to shout about it - think about what it'd do to the value of that particular car. There are quite a few UK cars out there that have had rebuilds on the QT. In all the forum discussions on this subject, I've never seen a post along the lines of 'my manifolds failed, engine sucked something into engine and it blew up'.
So does anyone know the reality on this one? On the face of it the £1500 insurance premium could be very expensive insurance!?
Durzel said:
voicey said:
However, the reason you don't hear about it is because owners don't like to shout about it - think about what it'd do to the value of that particular car.
Very good point.I'm told this problem manifests early in a 430's life. That being so its reasonable to assume that most or at least many of the 'engine rebuilt after broken manifold ingestion' cars were sold by Ferrari Main Dealers as approve used later. Would they, or indeed marque specialists, be compelled to tell prospective buyers that engine had been rebuilt?
roygarth said:
I'm not so sure. The borescoring etc problems with Porsche 996/997 are well documented, and cars with engines rebuilt are advertised as such come sale time - presumably to help sell the car.
Yes but a hell of a lot cheaper to fix at 8k exchange for a complete motor.New factory Porsche engine = Good
Repaired fezza motor = not so good
roygarth said:
Durzel said:
voicey said:
However, the reason you don't hear about it is because owners don't like to shout about it - think about what it'd do to the value of that particular car.
Very good point.I'm told this problem manifests early in a 430's life. That being so its reasonable to assume that most or at least many of the 'engine rebuilt after broken manifold ingestion' cars were sold by Ferrari Main Dealers as approve used later. Would they, or indeed marque specialists, be compelled to tell prospective buyers that engine had been rebuilt?
Condition and provenance is, to the untrained eye, a much bigger factor. Telling people that your 430 engine has had a rebuild in its life, when pretty much no other advert does this, would be an anathema upon it. I note that Ferrari dealers don't even mention manifold or suspension work in their description of their Approved Used cars. I suspect that is a conversation for behind closed doors (certainly in my experience the dealers are both aware of and not particularly shy about talking about both manifold and suspension weaknesses).
Porsches on the other hand, I think it's a positive if someone mentions that the "IMS/RMS issue has been fixed", or whatever, simply because it is such a catastrophic failure when it occurs, and the tell-tale signs seem to manifest at about the time the engine has already been nuked. Contrast that with a cracked F430 manifold that might for a period of time, especially considering how relatively little the cars are driven, just manifest as a noise that goes away once the car is warmed up.
I also think the market is such that a fundamentally flawed manifold design on the F430, and chocolate suspension components, etc are almost just considered to be "the Ferrari way", you pay for the engine and the rest comes free, etc. No one expects a Porsche - a robust German brand - to nuke itself in the low teens upwards, with very little warning.
roygarth said:
I'm not so sure. The borescoring etc problems with Porsche 996/997 are well documented, and cars with engines rebuilt are advertised as such come sale time - presumably to help sell the car.
I'm told this problem manifests early in a 430's life. That being so its reasonable to assume that most or at least many of the 'engine rebuilt after broken manifold ingestion' cars were sold by Ferrari Main Dealers as approve used later. Would they, or indeed marque specialists, be compelled to tell prospective buyers that engine had been rebuilt?
My cars Mk1's failed at 18k miles in 2009, and the replacement Mk2's failed at 28k last year. It has Capristo brackets fitted.I'm told this problem manifests early in a 430's life. That being so its reasonable to assume that most or at least many of the 'engine rebuilt after broken manifold ingestion' cars were sold by Ferrari Main Dealers as approve used later. Would they, or indeed marque specialists, be compelled to tell prospective buyers that engine had been rebuilt?
The F430 sounds awesome with replacement manifolds.
mwstewart said:
roygarth said:
I'm not so sure. The borescoring etc problems with Porsche 996/997 are well documented, and cars with engines rebuilt are advertised as such come sale time - presumably to help sell the car.
I'm told this problem manifests early in a 430's life. That being so its reasonable to assume that most or at least many of the 'engine rebuilt after broken manifold ingestion' cars were sold by Ferrari Main Dealers as approve used later. Would they, or indeed marque specialists, be compelled to tell prospective buyers that engine had been rebuilt?
My cars Mk1's failed at 18k miles in 2009, and the replacement Mk2's failed at 28k last year. It has Capristo brackets fitted.I'm told this problem manifests early in a 430's life. That being so its reasonable to assume that most or at least many of the 'engine rebuilt after broken manifold ingestion' cars were sold by Ferrari Main Dealers as approve used later. Would they, or indeed marque specialists, be compelled to tell prospective buyers that engine had been rebuilt?
The F430 sounds awesome with replacement manifolds.
In fact the cracking in theory is more likely to happen as time goes on. I've heard of MK1 and MK2 manifolds going all over the place. Replacing mine with aftermarket SS manifolds was one of the first things I did.
Heard mixed reviews if the upgraded brackets help. If keeping OEM ones I would say yes.
Edin430 said:
It can happen at any time in a 430's life.
In fact the cracking in theory is more likely to happen as time goes on. I've heard of MK1 and MK2 manifolds going all over the place. Replacing mine with aftermarket SS manifolds was one of the first things I did.
Heard mixed reviews if the upgraded brackets help. If keeping OEM ones I would say yes.
Mk2's are also failing but not as severely. As mentioned it "should" be spotted during service. Since 2005 I've only rebuilt 2 engines and replaced 1 (whilst at a main dealer) that have suffered reversion but I know of documented cases through others in the trade. The OE units are of very poor design, as are those on the 360. The difference with the 430 is the Heath-Robinson mounting system that accentuates the underlying issue.In fact the cracking in theory is more likely to happen as time goes on. I've heard of MK1 and MK2 manifolds going all over the place. Replacing mine with aftermarket SS manifolds was one of the first things I did.
Heard mixed reviews if the upgraded brackets help. If keeping OEM ones I would say yes.
As was also mentioned earlier, having your engine rebuilt because of a catastrophic failure doesn't bode well for prospective buyers. There are many early 360's running around that have had major engine repairs due to variator failure, and I'm sure many wouldn't mention that either....
Edited by Cerberaherts on Monday 19th January 18:26
Thanks for all the comments, and especially to Aldous for all the info he delivers to this forum, I am very impressed with his diligence. It seems that for piece of mind I will get the manifolds changed in the spring when it goes to Dove House for its service. The £1500 and £2K figures on here seem a bit light. The price as per the Capristo UK site for the Manifold is £3495.00 plus VAT plus the blankets which in total is pushing £5K plus the service, now I did not expect it to be cheap to run a F430 but that cost does make the eyes water a bit, anyway I am steeling myself to bite the bullet. If anybody knows of a cheaper alternative that actually fits the vehicle and does not cause overheating issues I would be very pleased to hear from them. Once again thanks for all the comments.
Gassing Station | Ferrari V8 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff