Ferrari 348 handling?

[fangio246]

Hi All
I know there are various threads about alleged 348 high speed stability and or snap oversteer but just want some thoughts from owners?

I have just got a '93 TS (with the battery in front wing) which has Toyo Proxes T1-R tyres with good and similar tread all round. The car is low miles and feels taught when driving. To date I've only done a few runs out totalling less than 350 miles, so its early days. However, I do get the sensation that I've got a lot of weight behind me and don't feel confident in taking much speed into bends, adopting the 'brake heavily in a straight line' principle before and twisty bits. I feel otherwise the back end is going to disappear into the scenery!
As a little background I've done track days in Catherhams and also own a Lotus Elise. I know the Elise is a totally different animal but the confidence that car gives you and its cornering speed is immense. I don't feel I could commit with the 348 to 70% or less of the speed I could corner in the Elise.
Is this the normal 'feel' in a 348 or does it sound unusual? What are the best mods to improve the handling and feel?

[grwyellow]

You want benign handling, so you bought a 348!!!!!!!!!!! Unfortunately, you have the most "difficult to drive quickly" Ferrari of the past 30 years - I have driven a friends 348 a few times and it scares me whitless on the road - a 328 is SO much more rewarding (convex wheels on the later models are plain fugly though). Hopefully someone with a 348 can advise on how to tame the evil handling traits of the standard car.

Edited by grwyellow on Sunday 11th May 05:44

Edited by grwyellow on Sunday 11th May 05:47

Edited by grwyellow on Sunday 11th May 05:49

[fangio246]

grwyellow said:

You want benign handling, so you bought a 348!!!!!!!!!!! Unfortunately, you have the most "difficult to drive quickly" Ferrari of the past 30 years - I have driven a friends 348 a few times and it scares me whitless on the road - a 328 is SO much more rewarding (convex wheels on the later models are plain fugly though). Hopefully someone with a 348 can advise on how to tame the evil handling traits of the standard car.

Edited by grwyellow on Sunday 11th May 05:44

Edited by grwyellow on Sunday 11th May 05:47

Edited by grwyellow on Sunday 11th May 05:49

I didn't buy the 348 expecting benign handling and read this - http://www.lotusespritworld.com/ERoadtests/FastLan... This is an early car as well.
I don't think 348s should drive badly, the steering feel on my car is superb (unassisted) for example. I'm just trying to ascertain if the sensation of driving them is as mine, or if its sounds as if the geometry or something is out on mine?

[MJK 24]

I'd look into having the geometry checked first. It's that's out you can't form a proper opinion of the car.
I have an Elise too and they drive like dogs if the geo is out.

Keep us informed

[Candellara]

fangio246 said:

Hi All
I know there are various threads about alleged 348 high speed stability and or snap oversteer but just want some thoughts from owners?

I have just got a '93 TS (with the battery in front wing) which has Toyo Proxes T1-R tyres with good and similar tread all round. The car is low miles and feels taught when driving. To date I've only done a few runs out totalling less than 350 miles, so its early days. However, I do get the sensation that I've got a lot of weight behind me and don't feel confident in taking much speed into bends, adopting the 'brake heavily in a straight line' principle before and twisty bits. I feel otherwise the back end is going to disappear into the scenery!
As a little background I've done track days in Catherhams and also own a Lotus Elise. I know the Elise is a totally different animal but the confidence that car gives you and its cornering speed is immense. I don't feel I could commit with the 348 to 70% or less of the speed I could corner in the Elise.
Is this the normal 'feel' in a 348 or does it sound unusual? What are the best mods to improve the handling and feel?

The suspension bushes / shocks are probably the best part of over 20 years old. Replace the heavy 348 rims with 355 wheels & new tyres, 25mm rear spacers, 15mm front spacers. New suspension / wishbone bushes throughout. New shocks all round, drop the ride height by 18mm helped mine and then get the car correctly shimmed / set up. It will still be nervous, but a whole lot better.

[fangio246]

Candellara said:

The suspension bushes / shocks are probably the best part of over 20 years old. Replace the heavy 348 rims with 355 wheels & new tyres, 25mm rear spacers, 15mm front spacers. New suspension / wishbone bushes throughout. New shocks all round, drop the ride height by 18mm helped mine and then get the car correctly shimmed / set up. It will still be nervous, but a whole lot better.

So EVEN after lowering, plus lighter larger wheels with new better rubber, all new suspension and a proper alignment your car is still nervous!! That doesn't bode well....
Can you explain this 'nervous' feeling it more detail? After all the mods did the car feel a lot different to drive?

[JaseB]

Interesting use of 'nervous', IMHO mine feels what I would call 'alive' down to the feedback from the steering and in the same way that a Caterham does.

To be fair I don't (yet) take my car to anything like it's limits on the road but it feels pretty planted, needs a decent 'chuck' into a corner - I think due to spacers on the rear - but it certainly grips, just takes a bit of balls and to be at the right speed, then it seems to have plenty of grips take beans on the way out. It does get a little unsettled by mid corner bumps but I figured that's to be expected?!

I need to do a trackday or handling day I think to find the limits without resorting to roundabouts at night...

This is what they can do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rgre5_rYg4
And be caught if you know how...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGb7iPgTevM

[Candellara]

fangio246 said:

So EVEN after lowering, plus lighter larger wheels with new better rubber, all new suspension and a proper alignment your car is still nervous!! That doesn't bode well....
Can you explain this 'nervous' feeling it more detail? After all the mods did the car feel a lot different to drive?

Yep. Steering is sublime on the 348 and low speed handling is fine. The issue arises with high speed handling (over 70mph) and is fine on a billiard smooth road or track. Drive the car at "higher speeds" on an undulating B Road and it'll become evident. Why does this occur? TBH, i don't really know. Ferrari were aware of the issues hence a number of mods were made to late 92 onwards cars such as battery position, wider rear track etc. Many say it's the suspension pick up points that are the cause. All i do know is that obviously refreshing all suspension components helps as does fresh rubber. FWIW, the biggest single difference to mine was lighter 355 wheels with fresh rubber.

My car was never "nervous" if the road was smooth but exacerbated if the surface undulated across the width of the road. It wasn't particularly over or understeer - the car would just wander and feel very vague on those road conditions at higher speeds. At low speeds, no issue at all & great fun to drive. Naturally that is just one element of the 348 - so just improve where you can and enjoy it. Lovely car

Edited by Candellara on Wednesday 14th May 16:02

[fangio246]

I'm getting the suspension alignment checked and adjusted if necessary this week. Have spoken to Hills Engineering and they said all 348's across the entire production had the same suspension track width. It was only the late US spiders that went from the factory with wheels providing an additional 50mm track width due to wheel offset. Apparently no European/UK cars came from the factory with these wheels.
Will be interesting to see if my cars geometry is out, then I think its a choice between going to hills 25mm rear spacers or 18 inch rims with new boots.

[R36vw]

These cars you are finding out geometry set up is important. Many have had spacers fitted. Front and rear. Mine has the 25mm rear spacers on, drives like its on rails. It's very stable even beyond 120mph without the nose lift many mention. Candelarra summed it up well it's the higher speeds into bends and roads not perfectly smooth can give that feel it's not quite settled.. However to find out what it can do, the best place is a track. Here you will find that it's limits are way beyond what you've pushed it(but don't try on the road to find out or you'll do what the guy with the 430 did last week) it's a car that is engaging but no tech either, you have to work it. You can get just as much reward out of it without going 90 round a corner. Going from a Porsche which does what it says on the tin(can't fault them, apart from like my Beemer very Germanic) compared to Italian cars which can have a sting and quite different takes getting used to. These cars you know you've driven
I had the fortune of Tim Walker showing me what it can do....I drove like miss daisy, it felt like he drove like he stole it! Superb driving skills. A great insight on the capability of a car. I can't get any where near what he did!

[supersport]

I wonder how much of this apprehension is in your mind. As an example my old school 911 is similar not electronics other than the radio and a reputation. This rep sits in the back of your mind. It's only when you get on track and an instructor shows you how much you can do that you realise that you are the limit and not the car.

The 944 has no rep and I gave no problem throwing it around. It took a long time to be confident in the 911. Modern ones don't count as they are playstation by comparison.

[Candellara]

IIRC, the 348's that ran at Le Mans used to run with the rear ARB disconnected. How this would improve matters i don't know, but the independant race teams obviously thought it improved things

[4rephill]

I picked up My 348 TS yesterday from TFC and it came with a big heavy folder of service bills/repair work/magazines paperwork and all manner! (It'll probably take a year to read through it all!). I'm not kidding, the folder weighs a ton!

"Do you want the folder put in the passengers foot-well?", I was asked.
" No, put it in the front trunk - It'll help keep the nose down and dial out any under-steer!" I replied!

[fangio246]

R36vw said:

I had the fortune of Tim Walker showing me what it can do....I drove like miss daisy, it felt like he drove like he stole it! Superb driving skills. A great insight on the capability of a car. I can't get any where near what he did!

I've had the suspension geometry checked and adjusted by the guy who does the race set up on both Tim Walker's and Dave Tomlin's cars. He said one of the rears was toeing out slightly and also needed a little adjustment to one of the fronts as well. Have just taken it out for a good run (in the sunshine) and the car feels great....
He said he'd driven cars, though not in anger, with rear spacers fitted and couldn't tell the difference.

Be interested in opinions on how much difference rear spacers do offer, also putting 10 to 20Kg of ballast in the front (which I've seen on some threads).

[fangio246]

PS Forgot to mention the Toyo Proxies fitted are 10 years old..... so I'm sure new boots would also improve things.

I think going to 18 inch wheels and replacing the tyres would be a good option. With the 355 wheels being harder to find (and v. expensive) I'm leaning toward 360 wheels with a little machined off the rears.

Any one got a set of 360 wheels for sale?

[NeilH]

For what my comments may be worth..

I have just fitted a set of 360 wheels to my 348 with Pirreli P Zeros all round and it feels so much better.. at least slow to mid speed driving A/B road driving. I can still induce fast turn in understeer so still work in progress, but now the sun is out I will probably wait until the end of the year and i will strip out all the corners and rebuild with new bushes which I hope will go a long way to sorting this.

[fangio246]

NeilH said:

I have just fitted a set of 360 wheels to my 348 with Pirreli P Zeros all round and it feels so much better.. at least slow to mid speed driving A/B road driving. I can still induce fast turn in understeer so still work in progress, but now the sun is out I will probably wait until the end of the year and i will strip out all the corners and rebuild with new bushes which I hope will go a long way to sorting this.

Hi Neil
Out of interest have you taken any metal off the rears to reduce the offset? Is yours an early battery in the back or later in the front car? Any particular reason why Pirreli's and what size have you gone for?

[NeilH]

Pirelli P Zeros are standard fit for Ferraris of the 355 / 360 era was my understanding, and I had no particular reason to go for any other brand.

Sizes - Rear 285x35 /18 Front 235x40 /18

I had 20mm machined of the rears in order to get them within the body line. The fronts required no work. Mine are BBS split rim wheels that look more like those on a 355 than the standard 360 5 spoke rims - see link below.

Mine is a front battery model.

Hope some of this helps..


http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2...

[fangio246]

Thanks for the info Neil, really helpful

Did you only pay £620 for those wheels......?

[scrappydog]

I read somewhere that the later cars; spider and GTB, had a different mounting points for the rear suspension. I've seen it referenced a couple of times but I can't seem to find and technical specs or other information on this.

It would appear that the Spider and GTB suspension points would eventually be carried over to the 355, which is supposed to have better on-the-limit handling than the 348. Just a guess though. Does anyone have further info?

Andy