360 service question. Advice please.
Discussion
My 360 has gone into the main dealer today for a clutch change. 12 months ago I had the full works (major service) done on the car including cambelt + aux belts, all fluids, brake pads + disks and anything and everything else that needed doing.
They have just telephoned me asking if they should carry out a service whilst it is there. I have done 3,500 miles in that 12 month period.
It may sound a stupid question, but does it actually need a service given everything that was done 12 months ago and only 3,500 miles on top since ?
Any advice appreciated ASAP thank you.
They have just telephoned me asking if they should carry out a service whilst it is there. I have done 3,500 miles in that 12 month period.
It may sound a stupid question, but does it actually need a service given everything that was done 12 months ago and only 3,500 miles on top since ?
Any advice appreciated ASAP thank you.
Have you read any of the 360CS threads about the lhd cars being rejected by UK buyers because they have not been serviced annually ?
In the UK it is expected to be seen to have had an annual service (which after all is as recommended by the owners manual) - if nothing else to keep the oil clear of contaminants from lack of use
Seven hundred quid (or whatever)to you squire
The only possible reason I can see not to is if you are selling within a couple of months
In the UK it is expected to be seen to have had an annual service (which after all is as recommended by the owners manual) - if nothing else to keep the oil clear of contaminants from lack of use
Seven hundred quid (or whatever)to you squire
The only possible reason I can see not to is if you are selling within a couple of months
johnnyreggae said:
Have you read any of the 360CS threads about the lhd cars being rejected by UK buyers because they have not been serviced annually ?
In the UK it is expected to be seen to have had an annual service (which after all is as recommended by the owners manual) - if nothing else to keep the oil clear of contaminants from lack of use
Seven hundred quid (or whatever)to you squire
The only possible reason I can see not to is if you are selling within a couple of months
Thanks for the reply, no I haven't read any of those threads but can understand why also. In the UK it is expected to be seen to have had an annual service (which after all is as recommended by the owners manual) - if nothing else to keep the oil clear of contaminants from lack of use
Seven hundred quid (or whatever)to you squire
The only possible reason I can see not to is if you are selling within a couple of months
I have just confirmed for them to go ahead with it as for £900 it does seem daft not to do it really, especially as it is a 250 mile round trip to them also.
In my opinion, yes. The oil gets contaminated with combustion gases - running with dirty oil can ultimatly lead to a lunched engine. I'm not saying this will happen if you don't get it serviced but the risk increases. For the sake of a few hundred quid I would have it serviced annualy regardless of mileage.
voicey said:
In my opinion, yes. The oil gets contaminated with combustion gases - running with dirty oil can ultimatly lead to a lunched engine. I'm not saying this will happen if you don't get it serviced but the risk increases. For the sake of a few hundred quid I would have it serviced annualy regardless of mileage.
Thanks Aldous, truly appreciated 
My 430 does 2k miles (insurance limit) a year and I am having it serviced every other year. I know there not BWM or the like with readouts to tell you when a service is due but with modern oils I just can't justify every 2k miles. It may be false economy when I sell though.....chance you take I guess.
blueSL said:
Well nobody will want my 355 then. I have it serviced every 2 years and stretch the belt interval - though hopefully not the belts themselves - to 4 years. All is fine. The biggest problem is not using the cars enough.
I am after a 355 and yes service does matter but is not the concern. It is the old "very few cold start up miles versus high hot oil motorway miles". blueSL said:
Well nobody will want my 355 then. I have it serviced every 2 years and stretch the belt interval - though hopefully not the belts themselves - to 4 years. All is fine. The biggest problem is not using the cars enough.
I wouldn't want to buy it but I'm sure there'll be a buyer somewhere when you come to sell. petrolpat said:
My 430 does 2k miles (insurance limit) a year and I am having it serviced every other year. I know there not BWM or the like with readouts to tell you when a service is due but with modern oils I just can't justify every 2k miles. It may be false economy when I sell though.....chance you take I guess.
Given the value of your car, I would have thought that it could be cheaper to have it serviced annually than potentially suffer a reduction in value due to the gaps in the history.In any case, they're your cars and it's only my opinion.
So what if you service it yourself in between, I.e changing all fluids and keeping records and receipts . Then have the next years service done by main dealer with say cam belts etc, especially if you are only doing a couple of k per year.
Also if you sell and you get the car into the main dealer for a full service as part of the deal then the purchaser will know for sure that an unbiased inspection come service has been done, so surely this will not affect the value/ desirability , obviously getting any required done.
Also if you sell and you get the car into the main dealer for a full service as part of the deal then the purchaser will know for sure that an unbiased inspection come service has been done, so surely this will not affect the value/ desirability , obviously getting any required done.
Tbh, I think that the whole annual service (in reality it's just the oil change part we're concerned about) being necessary for mechanical purposes even if you haven't done the miles is in reality a load of tripe for any remotely modern Ferrari. Garages will always tell you to have the work done as either they're required to (main dealers) or they have a vested interest anyway as
a) it is work for them
b) it means they can charge a premium for cars that have a "better" service history
both of which equal more money out of the punters pocket incidentally
Not criticising as it's just the way of things.
The vast majority of Ferraris never get near their mileage intervals for a required oil change before their time intervals, so really we're just talking about the oil going off. Is this likely to have any kind of significant effect if you leave it for an extra year? I doubt it. And unless anyone can highlight exactly what materials issues there are in a Ferrari engine of the last 20 years that makes it so delicate, I remain to be convinced.
On top of this, IME when you visit an Indy to have a look round/get something minor done etc and end up having a chat, they *always* like to talk about the cars they have in and the work they're doing. Not once have I ever heard any of them say anything remotely along the lines of "well, we have a customer's car in and we're doing <insert severity here> rebuild because historically it's only been brought to us every 2 years for us to do the fluids when it should have been everywhere". You can *guarantee* they'd let you know if they had.
Do I get my annual service (i.e. fluids change) done every year? Yes. Does that make me a bit of a hypocrite. No, and I'll explain below.
So, really the only reasons to do it fall into a couple of options in my head...
Option 1 - the newer Ferrari:
You're taking such a bath on depreciation anyway that if you're concerned with an extra £700/year for an annual type service, you've got your priorities wrong. And aside from that, you'll likely need it anyway to maintain your warranty. And with the new cars you get your first 7 years free anyway so why would't you take it in. And if you don't do it for all of that, you need to do it as it may actually be worth £700 (x however many years) less on the market if you don't.
Option 2 - the older Ferrari:
You're not going to get your £700/year back at sale time, but it'll still be going in anyway as by that time (say 360s and older) the standard service items are the least of it, you're checking to see whether non service items need attention, or indeed taking it in because you've noticed something's not right. You'd have to be some special kind of idiot not to get an annual done (if you're due one) at the same time you're getting a gearbox leak or whatever looked at.
The only time I could see a reason not to have the fluids done annually at the garage is
a) if you're a competent home mechanic, your car is out of warranty and you can do it yourself and keep receipts
b) it out of warranty, it's a keeper and you'll never sell.
That said, for (b), you probably fall into Option 2 above anyway so it's academic.
I fall into Option 2 above myself, and in reality my car (and the 993) go in at least twice a year so that either:
they can be checked over to ensure something's not about to make me grind to a halt on whatever road trip/track event I'm doing next in them
or
as said above, something is not quite right mechanically that I've noticed
or
I want some cosmetic stuff doing (e.g. my recent bumper respray and seat piping fix)
In short, I think there are many reasons why you should have the annual fluids/oil change done every year as opposed to say every other year, but I have yet to see any convincing evidence that it's to stop you getting a big engine bill which is what is normally put forward.
a) it is work for them
b) it means they can charge a premium for cars that have a "better" service history
both of which equal more money out of the punters pocket incidentally
Not criticising as it's just the way of things.The vast majority of Ferraris never get near their mileage intervals for a required oil change before their time intervals, so really we're just talking about the oil going off. Is this likely to have any kind of significant effect if you leave it for an extra year? I doubt it. And unless anyone can highlight exactly what materials issues there are in a Ferrari engine of the last 20 years that makes it so delicate, I remain to be convinced.
On top of this, IME when you visit an Indy to have a look round/get something minor done etc and end up having a chat, they *always* like to talk about the cars they have in and the work they're doing. Not once have I ever heard any of them say anything remotely along the lines of "well, we have a customer's car in and we're doing <insert severity here> rebuild because historically it's only been brought to us every 2 years for us to do the fluids when it should have been everywhere". You can *guarantee* they'd let you know if they had.
Do I get my annual service (i.e. fluids change) done every year? Yes. Does that make me a bit of a hypocrite. No, and I'll explain below.
So, really the only reasons to do it fall into a couple of options in my head...
Option 1 - the newer Ferrari:
You're taking such a bath on depreciation anyway that if you're concerned with an extra £700/year for an annual type service, you've got your priorities wrong. And aside from that, you'll likely need it anyway to maintain your warranty. And with the new cars you get your first 7 years free anyway so why would't you take it in. And if you don't do it for all of that, you need to do it as it may actually be worth £700 (x however many years) less on the market if you don't.
Option 2 - the older Ferrari:
You're not going to get your £700/year back at sale time, but it'll still be going in anyway as by that time (say 360s and older) the standard service items are the least of it, you're checking to see whether non service items need attention, or indeed taking it in because you've noticed something's not right. You'd have to be some special kind of idiot not to get an annual done (if you're due one) at the same time you're getting a gearbox leak or whatever looked at.
The only time I could see a reason not to have the fluids done annually at the garage is
a) if you're a competent home mechanic, your car is out of warranty and you can do it yourself and keep receipts
b) it out of warranty, it's a keeper and you'll never sell.
That said, for (b), you probably fall into Option 2 above anyway so it's academic.
I fall into Option 2 above myself, and in reality my car (and the 993) go in at least twice a year so that either:
they can be checked over to ensure something's not about to make me grind to a halt on whatever road trip/track event I'm doing next in them
or
as said above, something is not quite right mechanically that I've noticed
or
I want some cosmetic stuff doing (e.g. my recent bumper respray and seat piping fix)
In short, I think there are many reasons why you should have the annual fluids/oil change done every year as opposed to say every other year, but I have yet to see any convincing evidence that it's to stop you getting a big engine bill which is what is normally put forward.
Cerbieherts said:
The acids in used engine oil attack the titanium rods. There isn't enough data as yet to show the length of time that it takes, but why risk it for the sake of a few quid? The problem has just started showing up in the 348 and 355.
Interesting, thanks for the info 
But, playing devil's advocate, if it's only just showing up on 20+ year old cars, it's clearly not catastrophic in the short or even medium term. I daresay that the cars it is appearing on were much more abused than having an oil change only once every 2 years.
Good news for buyers who may have otherwise discounted a good car for the sake of a few missed oil changes
There isn't a usage/timeframe pattern as yet. All that's known is that the rods are getting corroded by sulphuric acid from dirty oil. For what it's worth, I've seen perhaps four 360 blocks holed over the past few years but have not investigated the failure cause, just replaced. If you don't want to pay for an annual because you don't do many miles, I'd advise an oil change.
Cerbieherts said:
There isn't a usage/timeframe pattern as yet. All that's known is that the rods are getting corroded by sulphuric acid from dirty oil. For what it's worth, I've seen perhaps four 360 blocks holed over the past few years but have not investigated the failure cause, just replaced. If you don't want to pay for an annual because you don't do many miles, I'd advise an oil change.
So your comments about having seen four holed blocks are about as relevant as me saying it rained yesterday and on that basis it looks possible this year will be the wettest on record ? Sulphuric acid corroding Ti rods to the point of failure ? Really ??
Titanium :
Corrosion Resistance
The corrosion resistance of titanium is well documented. A stable, substantially inert oxide film provides the material with outstanding resistance to corrosion in a wide range of aggressive media. Whenever fresh titanium is exposed to the atmosphere or to any environment containing oxygen, it immediately acquires a thin tenacious film of oxide. It is the presence of this surface film that confers on the material its excellent corrosion resistance. Provided that sufficient oxygen is present, the film is self healing and re-forms almost at once if mechanically damaged.
Oxidising and Non-Oxidising Environments
Since titanium depends for its passivity on the presence of an oxide film, it follows that it is significantly more resistant to corrosion in oxidising solutions than in non-oxidising media where high rates of attack can occur. Thus the material can be used in all strengths of aqueous nitric acid at temperatures up to the boiling point. Similarly, it is not attacked by wet chlorine gas and by solutions of chlorine compounds such as sodium chlorite and hypochlorite.
There is no evidence of pitting or stress corrosion cracking in aqueous solutions of inorganic metal chlorides. Titanium also has exceptional resistance to sea water even under high velocity conditions or in polluted water. While the material normally has a significant corrosion rate in media such as sulphuric or hydrochloric acids which produce hydrogen on reaction with the metal, the presence of a small amount of oxidising agent in the acid results in the formation of a passive film. Hence, titanium is resistant to attack in mixtures of strong sulphuric and nitric acids, hydrochloric and nitric acids and even in strong hydrochloric acid containing free chlorine. The presence in solution of cupric or ferric ions also reduces the corrosion rate, as does alloying with noble metals or the use of an anodic protection technique.
The Mk1 Porsche 996 GT3 utilised Ti rods. Mine's now nearly fifteen rears old and has done the thick end of 60k miles, I've yet to see a Ti rod that's shown any kind of corrosion issues from the presence of H2SO4, and let's face it, by it's very nature a con rod spends it's life covered in oil.
Now that's not to say there won't be some H2SO4 kicking around in the crankcase as a result of the combustion process, but sufficient to corrode Ti rods to the point of failure ? Sorry, can't see it happening in normal useage.
I guess it's possible that if an individual decides to buy a 360 and treat it as a piece of art, rather than actually drive it, it's quite possibe such a car (that gets driven less than 1000 miles a year and not used as it's makers intended when it is driven) most likely will produce copious amounts of H2SO4 and this is likely to remain present if the engine is not being used sufficiently hard to enable it to be burnt off.
I'd suggest the engines in the much maligned high KM European cars that are so despised by many on here for not having their oil changed every 100 miles and their cambelts changed every other weekend, are actually in better mechanical shape than some UK gargage queens that get driven less than a thousand miles per annum and when they are driven, they're driven in a manner closer to your grans Micra, than the F1 derived masterpieces they are.
In short, if you're going to pose in it and polish it, change the oil regularly (very), if you're going to use the car for it's intended purpose on the road, less so. And if you're going to track it, it's probably worthwhile changing it at a frequency somewhere between the other two.
Cerbieherts said:
Ok. I've been a Ferrari technician for twenty years. How many Ferrari engines have you rebuilt?
With respect, that's kind of not the point though is it? If chemistry and logic dictate that at a basic level sulphuric acid should not corrode titanium, then either we're missing some info (e.g. the con rods are not pure Ti but say an alloy which is corroded) which we should try and find out, or the corrosion is happening as a result of something else which would also be valuable to discover.Out of interest, how does one tell if an engine part has been corroded by a specific substance? Are there tests that can be done? Or is it established wisdom? e.g. if it looks like this then therefore we know X has has corroded Y
Mario149 said:
Tbh, I think that the whole annual service (in reality it's just the oil change part we're concerned about) being necessary for mechanical purposes even if you haven't done the miles is in reality a load of tripe for any remotely modern Ferrari. Garages will always tell you to have the work done as either they're required to (main dealers) or they have a vested interest anyway as
a) it is work for them
b) it means they can charge a premium for cars that have a "better" service history
both of which equal more money out of the punters pocket incidentally Not criticising as it's just the way of things.
The vast majority of Ferraris never get near their mileage intervals for a required oil change before their time intervals, so really we're just talking about the oil going off. Is this likely to have any kind of significant effect if you leave it for an extra year? I doubt it. And unless anyone can highlight exactly what materials issues there are in a Ferrari engine of the last 20 years that makes it so delicate, I remain to be convinced.
On top of this, IME when you visit an Indy to have a look round/get something minor done etc and end up having a chat, they *always* like to talk about the cars they have in and the work they're doing. Not once have I ever heard any of them say anything remotely along the lines of "well, we have a customer's car in and we're doing <insert severity here> rebuild because historically it's only been brought to us every 2 years for us to do the fluids when it should have been everywhere". You can *guarantee* they'd let you know if they had.
Do I get my annual service (i.e. fluids change) done every year? Yes. Does that make me a bit of a hypocrite. No, and I'll explain below.
So, really the only reasons to do it fall into a couple of options in my head...
Option 1 - the newer Ferrari:
You're taking such a bath on depreciation anyway that if you're concerned with an extra £700/year for an annual type service, you've got your priorities wrong. And aside from that, you'll likely need it anyway to maintain your warranty. And with the new cars you get your first 7 years free anyway so why would't you take it in. And if you don't do it for all of that, you need to do it as it may actually be worth £700 (x however many years) less on the market if you don't.
Option 2 - the older Ferrari:
You're not going to get your £700/year back at sale time, but it'll still be going in anyway as by that time (say 360s and older) the standard service items are the least of it, you're checking to see whether non service items need attention, or indeed taking it in because you've noticed something's not right. You'd have to be some special kind of idiot not to get an annual done (if you're due one) at the same time you're getting a gearbox leak or whatever looked at.
The only time I could see a reason not to have the fluids done annually at the garage is
a) if you're a competent home mechanic, your car is out of warranty and you can do it yourself and keep receipts
b) it out of warranty, it's a keeper and you'll never sell.
That said, for (b), you probably fall into Option 2 above anyway so it's academic.
I fall into Option 2 above myself, and in reality my car (and the 993) go in at least twice a year so that either:
they can be checked over to ensure something's not about to make me grind to a halt on whatever road trip/track event I'm doing next in them
or
as said above, something is not quite right mechanically that I've noticed
or
I want some cosmetic stuff doing (e.g. my recent bumper respray and seat piping fix)
In short, I think there are many reasons why you should have the annual fluids/oil change done every year as opposed to say every other year, but I have yet to see any convincing evidence that it's to stop you getting a big engine bill which is what is normally put forward.
I'd like to nominate the above for 'Post Of The Year'. a) it is work for them
b) it means they can charge a premium for cars that have a "better" service history
both of which equal more money out of the punters pocket incidentally
Not criticising as it's just the way of things.The vast majority of Ferraris never get near their mileage intervals for a required oil change before their time intervals, so really we're just talking about the oil going off. Is this likely to have any kind of significant effect if you leave it for an extra year? I doubt it. And unless anyone can highlight exactly what materials issues there are in a Ferrari engine of the last 20 years that makes it so delicate, I remain to be convinced.
On top of this, IME when you visit an Indy to have a look round/get something minor done etc and end up having a chat, they *always* like to talk about the cars they have in and the work they're doing. Not once have I ever heard any of them say anything remotely along the lines of "well, we have a customer's car in and we're doing <insert severity here> rebuild because historically it's only been brought to us every 2 years for us to do the fluids when it should have been everywhere". You can *guarantee* they'd let you know if they had.
Do I get my annual service (i.e. fluids change) done every year? Yes. Does that make me a bit of a hypocrite. No, and I'll explain below.
So, really the only reasons to do it fall into a couple of options in my head...
Option 1 - the newer Ferrari:
You're taking such a bath on depreciation anyway that if you're concerned with an extra £700/year for an annual type service, you've got your priorities wrong. And aside from that, you'll likely need it anyway to maintain your warranty. And with the new cars you get your first 7 years free anyway so why would't you take it in. And if you don't do it for all of that, you need to do it as it may actually be worth £700 (x however many years) less on the market if you don't.
Option 2 - the older Ferrari:
You're not going to get your £700/year back at sale time, but it'll still be going in anyway as by that time (say 360s and older) the standard service items are the least of it, you're checking to see whether non service items need attention, or indeed taking it in because you've noticed something's not right. You'd have to be some special kind of idiot not to get an annual done (if you're due one) at the same time you're getting a gearbox leak or whatever looked at.
The only time I could see a reason not to have the fluids done annually at the garage is
a) if you're a competent home mechanic, your car is out of warranty and you can do it yourself and keep receipts
b) it out of warranty, it's a keeper and you'll never sell.
That said, for (b), you probably fall into Option 2 above anyway so it's academic.
I fall into Option 2 above myself, and in reality my car (and the 993) go in at least twice a year so that either:
they can be checked over to ensure something's not about to make me grind to a halt on whatever road trip/track event I'm doing next in them
or
as said above, something is not quite right mechanically that I've noticed
or
I want some cosmetic stuff doing (e.g. my recent bumper respray and seat piping fix)
In short, I think there are many reasons why you should have the annual fluids/oil change done every year as opposed to say every other year, but I have yet to see any convincing evidence that it's to stop you getting a big engine bill which is what is normally put forward.
Basically the only reason for an annual oil change regardless of mileage is if you are worried that the market in this country places a value on it come re-sale time. When importing a 550M & a 360CS from Europe recently I found that the the most 'incomplete' Service History's are to be found in Italy - where most of these cars are made for chrissake! But even in the automotive engineering capital of the world, Germany, I would estimate that Ferraris are 'oil changed' in the first 10 years on average every 2.5 years on low annual mileage cars.
The good news is that outside the Pistonheads Massive the obsession with annually draining crystal clear virgin engine oil out of hardly used exotica is not so widespread - all over Europe, including the UK, Ferrari Main Dealers have cars on their books with 'missed' Annuals, 'incomplete SH' etc. What does that tell you? Well it doesn't tell me that when I drive out of the showroom the engines are liable to explode in a mushroom cloud of sulphuric acid and corroded titanium con-rods!
Don't get me wrong I'm all for looking after these cars properly but lets no forget that the rest of Europe views this subject very differently from the UK. (Its probably a German led EU conspiracy - don't tell Nigel Farage!)
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