From 993 To (Late) 964 C2 Manual Coupe

[truckpdt]

I realise this subject may have been thrashed to death, but I'm interested to hear the experience of anyone that has sold their 993 C2 couple manual in for a 964 C2 coupe manual and their subsequent thoughts on the change. Alternatively, those that are fortunate enough to own both and therefore I present the question of which one you would ditch and why? Those outside these parameters, not really interested to hear tbh.

Thanks in advance.

[g7jhp]

I went from a late 3.2 Carrera coupe to a 993 C4 varioram coupe regretted it and went back to another 3.2 Carrera coupe.

The 3.2's had the classic shape, it was smaller and nice to place on the road, felt better built and was more mechanical to drive.

The 993 C4 just didn't really feel like it moved the game on from a performance point of view. It was more modern, but lost some of the character and charm. Ultimately it didn't feel as raw.

I'd imagine the 964 would be a nice step back. Feel smaller (narrower) to drive, classic shape, but a little more polished than a 3.2.

[truckpdt]

Thanks. I've had Carrera 3.2......a particularly well sorted one that I had to let go at the time due to a house move that quite simply had a garage falling down.

I really enjoyed. However, I also had a 993 Carrera non-vario - which has the close ratio gearbox with nicely sorted suspension (all components) and that was quite simply fantastic. In an ideal world I'd own both C3.2 and the early 993. Back in 2004 I drove a number of 993s I settled on a polar silver 1995 993 C2 but I had driven a C4 vario-ram - it just didn't deliver the same as the 1995 C2 and that's why I went for that one. Right now I have another 993 C2 manual coupe that's VERY similar to the one I had all those years ago...in fact arguably marginally better but it's a late 964 C2 coupe manual I'm considering as I'm being offered one privately.

[Orangecurry]

Clinchy had both at the same time for a year or more?
He kept the 993 in the end, but you'd have to ask him for the reasoning.

[GTRene]

never had a 993...

I had a 930 1976 Carrera 3.0 and a 964 C2 with 3.8 engine, I forgot how both drove though...

yes the 930 from 1976 although special, felt older and I guess more sloppy gear movement (but not sure anymore, was back mid 90-tish)
the 964 C2 with the 3.8 felt more modern, more rigid? faster, but because all was a bit more rigid? heavy/modern it was not super special I guess, because if it was giving me lots of drivers fun I would have bought more like I did with some other cars, say 5 times a Fiat X1/9 or 6 times a Nissan Sunny GTI-R or 8 times a BMW Z3 M coupe/roadster and 5 times a BMW E30 M3 in all variants also B6S (not by Alpina build) and one with e36 M3 engine and tuning, many peugeots 205 GTI in more variants.

Ok, those Fiats and Peugeots I've owned (most of them) before I had those 911, but still.

But not over the 911, but then it have to be something more raw/wild? I'm looking sometimes at 70-80 tish wide body RS/ST/Singer-ish replica's with say at least 300hp on say, max 1150kg I think that could be nice.
Also looking at 997 GT2 but they getting more expensive, also rare, but its one on my bucketlist :-) and ofcourse something like a 500ps GT3 (touring) but... to be honest, I would like a older smaller 911 with say Restomod better, max the 964 base, then made lightweight and 3.6-3.8 engine and WTL body, every time I see such 30 jahre jubi purple-ish metallic 964 I think, wow... I do not like big wings, so those are mmm except the interior most are a bit boring of those (who choose (lots of them) the grey leather) 30 jahre versions, but RS 964 interior in such and...nice.

see a example of such standard 30 jahre jubi version, in real live they look way better though.

Edited by GTRene on Sunday 17th July 00:21

[Discombobulate]

I have had a 2.2s, 3.2, 964, 993, 996 GT3 and currently have a 997.

I went back to a 3.2 a few years ago and it wasn't quite the car I remembered so sold it.

I have since tried to find a good 964 which, out of all those, is the one I would like to own again. But I have been unable to find the right car, in the tight spec.The 993 was a step up in terms of driving, but the 964 looks so much better to my eyes. The front of the 993 was too much of a stylistic deviation from the classic 911 shape - at least for me. And with all these old 911s, the aesthetics are an important part of the ownership experience. Performance improves with each generation - speed, handling and braking. However, inside - the look, feel and even the smell - the air cooled cars are surprisingly similar.

Not that speed is the be all and end all. The 2.2s was a dream to drive once properly sorted (by CoG). Light on its toes and great fun at lower speeds than its later siblings.

Of course, with hindsight (and the possible exception of the last 3.2), I now wish I hadn't sold any of them. As does my bank manager

[truckpdt]

Thanks. I've had Carrera 3.2......a particularly well sorted one that I had to let go at the time due to a house move that quite simply had a garage falling down.

I really enjoyed. However, I also had a 993 Carrera non-vario - which has the close ratio gearbox with nicely sorted suspension (all components) and that was quite simply fantastic. In an ideal world I'd own both C3.2 and the early 993. Back in 2004 I drove a number of 993s I settled on a polar silver 1995 993 C2 but I had driven a C4 vario-ram - it just didn't deliver the same as the 1995 C2 and that's why I went for that one. Right now I have another 993 C2 manual coupe that's VERY similar to the one I had all those years ago...in fact arguably marginally better but it's a late 964 C2 coupe manual I'm considering as I'm being offered one privately.

[truckpdt]

Thanks, I also wish I'd not sold my 911s. Had a 930 Turbo back in 2004 for £16K, a polar silver 993 for £24k a year later. After many years I bought a guards red 993 with 69000 miles but it just wasn't a good one is all I can say and I sold it on....didn't drive like my early polar silver car. I now own a 993 c2 coupe manual again and I'm honest I love it......very similar to the polar silver car. It's just brilliant really. I have the opportunity to buy a 964 that's not hit the market yet - described as a minter , 4 owners and 93K but it's £78K price tag, another £33k more than what I paid for my 993......that's my dilemma!!!

Discombobulate said:

I have had a 2.2s, 3.2, 964, 993, 996 GT3 and currently have a 997.

I went back to a 3.2 a few years ago and it wasn't quite the car I remembered so sold it.

I have since tried to find a good 964 which, out of all those, is the one I would like to own again. But I have been unable to find the right car, in the tight spec.The 993 was a step up in terms of driving, but the 964 looks so much better to my eyes. The front of the 993 was too much of a stylistic deviation from the classic 911 shape - at least for me. And with all these old 911s, the aesthetics are an important part of the ownership experience. Performance improves with each generation - speed, handling and braking. However, inside - the look, feel and even the smell - the air cooled cars are surprisingly similar.

Not that speed is the be all and end all. The 2.2s was a dream to drive once properly sorted (by CoG). Light on its toes and great fun at lower speeds than its later siblings.

Of course, with hindsight (and the possible exception of the last 3.2), I now wish I hadn't sold any of them. As does my bank manager

[Wozy68]

truckpdt said:

Thanks. I've had Carrera 3.2......a particularly well sorted one that I had to let go at the time due to a house move that quite simply had a garage falling down.

I really enjoyed. However, I also had a 993 Carrera non-vario - which has the close ratio gearbox with nicely sorted suspension (all components) and that was quite simply fantastic. In an ideal world I'd own both C3.2 and the early 993. Back in 2004 I drove a number of 993s I settled on a polar silver 1995 993 C2 but I had driven a C4 vario-ram - it just didn't deliver the same as the 1995 C2 and that's why I went for that one. Right now I have another 993 C2 manual coupe that's VERY similar to the one I had all those years ago...in fact arguably marginally better but it's a late 964 C2 coupe manual I'm considering as I'm being offered one privately.

Like you and after testing the earlier and later model 993, I preferred the earlier 993 with its lower ratio gearbox and more on cam engine to the later more refined Vario engined 993

My 964 was a late model (and it was a proper late model, not am earlier model that had been sat in storage for several years which many late registered 964s actually were) , immaculate 30K mile C2 manual, which I bought around 2005..

I've also owned a 1977 2.7, a 3.2 and a 968 CS, so I've owned several Porsche models over the years.

These are just my own thoughts of owning both the 993 and 964, so if anyone reads this who owns a 964 .... I'm only going off my own experience of the 964 .... and it may just have been a bad example.

One month into ownership of the 964, I asked myself, would I have paid £44K when it was new and felt it was worth the money ...... The answer was a resounding no. One month into 993 ownership I asked myself the same question (A 993 was around £50K when it came out) and the answer was a resounding yes.

The 964 lasted 18 months and was gone, I still own the 993 after more than 10 years.

Reasons why I didn't like the 964 are many.

First off it felt old, not old as in driving an old 911 but old in the fact that the 964 was supposed to be a reincarnation and much improvised version of earlier 911s which to my mind it was not.

The NVH levels in a supposedly 90% revised car were laughable and frustrating. In the 3.2 and earlier cars NVH was expected as they basically were the same car built from the early Sixties, the 3.2 also 'felt' light to drive, the 964 felt heavy and especially so at the rear. The mixture of improved and revised front suspension but basically keeping the old setup at the rear just felt wrong on the road to me.

Mine was totally standard and over the years as the love for the 964 has grown and values risen most have had suspension etc improved but as a standard car straight from the factory I thought it was awful. I've always said that if I wanted to go quick on an unknown road, I'd never take a Standard factory 964 version as I never felt I could trust it in an expected or unexpected situation. Also The 993 felt a lot faster car from the first drive, the 964 always felt slow to me.

There is a lot of internet chatter about the 993 being more a GT 911 rather than a sports car compared to the 964 and earlier models. There is some truth in this but you can dial out the NVH levels on a 993 to suit which I have with mine. I.ve made my 993 my own. RS shifter, RS steering wheel, RS LWF & clutch, RSR silencers, total suspension refurb and RS engine and gearbox mounts and she now feels like an old school 911 to drive but with the added bonus of the (IMO) much better 993 Weissach setup, so I have the best of both worlds.

If I was driving across the UK on unknown B roads or to Europe tomorrow (Which I have done many times in the 993) I would choose the 993 over a 964 without a second thought..

All air-cooled have risen in values but I'm surprised that a 964 is worth as much or more than the 993. Twenty years ago a 964 was half the price of a 993 and personally I.ve always felt (and so did the market back then) that it was half the car of the 993..

I must admit though that the shape of the 964 has aged beautifully and I think this is where most of the extra cost of these comes from rather than it being a rare or brilliant to drive 911.

After reading what you have posted about your 993, I truly feel you would miss it a month into 964 ownership.

I'm now off into hiding so the that the 964 brigade cant give me a damn good shoeing

Edited to add. Top tip. If the 964 is indeed a late model. amongst other things, it should have the same press release buttons to drop the rear seat backs down that the 993 has..

Edited by Wozy68 on Tuesday 19th July 13:35

[n12maser]

i had an early 993 carrera (short ratios)
sold it to get into a 964 after 6 months, albeit 964 carrera 4 coupe manual......

Was back in 993 carrera after 6 months.

Sold that some years later to get a 981 GTS as had modern Porsche itch...that also lasted just 6 months then was back in 993 carrera (short ratio) which I accept now will be a keeper, honestly bury me in the thing.

I haven't tried 964 carrera 2 - tbh it's probably way better than the 964 carrera 4 because:
- didn't like carrera 4 overly heavy and less feel-some steering due to 4WD
- didnt like that no foot-rest to the left of clutch (not a problem on 1991 year 964 onwards)
- it understeered like a pig

But these dislikes may also apply to 964 carrera 2 (vs early 993)
- the revs were totally linear...I actually missed the "on cam" feel in the 993 around 4000 revs
- multi-link suspension in 993 gave me more confidence to really push on and not worry about ending up backwards in a corner
- the sound was not as good as a 993 pops/bangs/roar with the silencer bypass

Really though, think you just need to drive it and compare for yourself!

[n12maser]

i should say though, the 964 felt like an absolute tank in terms of the build quality. no rattles nothing...can't say the same about 993, personally feels like slight step down in that respect.

[ras62]

I would say getting a comparative example of either could prove quite difficult, decades of wear and tear etc. I think the early car responds better to modifications especially to suspension set up but a good example of either will put a smile on your face.

[GT Two]

I always wanted a 993 and when I finally got one I realised it I didn't enjoy it as much as I thought I would. It was very well sorted. 3.8 engine, new suspension (PSS10) RS anti roll bars, new bushes, turbo brakes.

I came from a very sorted and raw 3.2 Carrera with a Tuthill engine build and also a 964 cup spec car. I kept the 993 for a few months and it was sold. Very fast but almost too clinical compared to the earlier stuff.

Have owned 12 x 911 and the 993 was the one I kept the shortest. I seem to now always return to the early stuff with no PAS, no ABS etc.

So to answer your question I would prefer the 964 c2 for sure.

[Orangecurry]

Wozy68 said:

...stuff including...The mixture of improved and revised front suspension but basically keeping the old setup at the rear just felt wrong on the road to me.

Very good points all round - thanks for that. I never knew you were interesting......

Just an anorak note as it seems relevant - as everyone is going on about how good the closer ratio gearbox was on the earlier 993, this was fitted well into the 1996 build year, so it is common for the '96 cars to have both the Gxx21 (early) gearbox and the Varioram engine, and it was only in late '96 that all cars came out of the factory with the Gxx20 (late) gearbox, including all of the WB cars.

[rlw]

I once drove from the Isle of Skye to Leeds in my 964. As commented upon elsewhere, the NVH is pretty appalling. It took me two days to recover from that journey as my hearing was shot to pieces and with it my sense of balance.

In the 993 that followed it, London to Noirmoutier - about 600 miles - was a very peaceful drive and I felt fresh upon arrival.

I regret selling my 964 - especially looking at today's prices - and I didn't really love the 993 either but it was by far the better, more practical car.

[Wozy68]

Orangecurry said:

Wozy68 said:

...stuff including...The mixture of improved and revised front suspension but basically keeping the old setup at the rear just felt wrong on the road to me.

Very good points all round - thanks for that. I never knew you were interesting......
.

Harsh

[ras62]

Also quite wrong. No torsion bar on a 964.

[Wozy68]

ras62 said:

Also quite wrong. No torsion bar on a 964.

Revised front had springs and McPherson struts instead of torsion bars, rear still had semi trailing arms …. So the front was new and the rear basically the same as previous 911s.

[Barty964rst]

I have both models, and have had many 993 and 964 over the pat 30 years, still do have 5 of these models. Both 964 and 993 are my favourite models and cars to drive of Porsche cars, they always will be - I'm stuck in this era of cars!
As for which is best - I think this depends on how and what type of driver and driving you prefer. I have had standard models and RS derivatives of both. My favourite 993 and 964 have been the ones I have modernised via specialists - suspension / brake system / engine rebuilds / exhaust.
As for which is best, it depends on the owner's preferences - If I could keep only one car, it would be my modified C2 964 that GT One have done all the work on.

[GTRene]

with a bit modifying you can indeed get a lot more driving-fun out of them some cars can change night and day for driving experience/feel.

at the time I owned my 911 cars I did not change much, it was long ago, they were mostly how they came.

but for example the last few years, I changed a BMW Z3 coupe 3.0 (standard wheels no M suspension) from a dull drivers feel car (were I was used to the M models with suspension and wheels and bush changes) into almost a kart car with lots of feel and road reading, not as hard as a kart, but lowered, coilovers, bushings, 18 inch wheels, it completely transformed the car, from almost dull to very sporty.

I guess you can do the same to a 964 or a 993 and on top make them a bit lighter, you can also make it more your taste, change some in the interior, lightweight buckets or RS style light, or just the steering wheel and so on.
Then you could go on as crazy as you like or as deep as your pockets go ;-) sadly big engine power is very costly, but could also be a plus.