What's the consensus on well built replicas?

[tp81]

I am interested in the general consensus on top quality replicas.

There are numerous examples of poorly built early shell cars that are no doubt hiding a whole host of trouble, there are however certain cars on the market that have had no expense spared in the strip down, back to metal approach with all components new or refurbished. The prices are high and I would imagine if you have the money part of the enjoyment of these projects is the process. Leaving the process aside because you have not been part of it, do they still stack up and will they hold their value like original cars.

Here is the first one at £75, truly stunning car if a bit too track focused. I doubt you could repeat the process for the money being asked. I would imagine it replicates the RSR as accurately as you could hope to achieve.

http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2...

The next one is an ST replica, again stunning and finished to an exacting standard by a renowned car restorer.

http://www.canfordclassics.co.uk/gallery/st-tribut...

I imagine both cars are exceptional to drive with engines built by well know specialists and suspension set again by some of the best in the business. Chris Harris even had a go at this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2HjaHS51hk

What's the view on these cars, good value or daft money with heavy depreciation on account of it them being a copy?

[Schnellmann]

In my view a well-sorted replica can be perfect. If based on an early car and including the bits of early cars that make them different (and special) when compared to the later cars, such as light weight and MFI. However, some of the reps on the market and quite extreme (for road use) and also expensive and many in the early 911 community would rather have a period correct (if slower) car, which is more likely to increase in value and certainly much easier to sell on, than a bitsa rep.

[mrdemon]

my view is it will always be a "replica" and Porsche have a real car in every price range to own.

[Whitean3]

I kind of like the whole idea of a "Bitsa"- I see it as a more modern, 911 twist on the Outlaw scene- which seems almost like sacriledge to modify an old 356, but the outcome is often wonderful. People will talk about residuals, but I think one would go for this sort of thing as a keeper, not an investment. Much like a custom car

Let's be honest, most of us would love to own an original, matching numbers 2.7RS, but only a small fraction would have deep enough pockets. I love the idea of creating a 911 to your own spec- one of the benefits of having a car that has been evolving over so many years. It's why Paul Stephens and Singer creations seem to be popular- the performance of a modern 911 with the small dimiensions and uncluttered lines of an early 911.

Why not? It's always interesting to see the different approaches. I'm all for it (but lack the funding and gargae space to create my own!)

[Slippydiff]

tp81 said:

Here is the first one at £75, truly stunning car if a bit too track focused. I doubt you could repeat the process for the money being asked. I would imagine it replicates the RSR as accurately as you could hope to achieve.

http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2...

The next one is an ST replica, again stunning and finished to an exacting standard by a renowned car restorer.

http://www.canfordclassics.co.uk/gallery/st-tribut...

I imagine both cars are exceptional to drive with engines built by well know specialists and suspension set again by some of the best in the business. Chris Harris even had a go at this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2HjaHS51hk

What's the view on these cars, good value or daft money with heavy depreciation on account of it them being a copy?

I'm afraid the orange RSR rep by no means accurately replicates an RSR.
The wheels are not the correct widths, and genuine 11 & 9 J Fuchs aren't cheap.
The low throttle MFi butterfly set up on the car is wrong, reps are available, but a genuine set up will most likely cost you £8-10k+.

The brake calipers are 930 turbo items, which whilst they're FIA approved, they're not the period correct items. My guess is the car doesn't have the correct short steel rear trailing arms either. Add those few bits up and you'd be surprised how much they'll cost to make period correct.
With these cars the devil is in the detail. in my experience the RSR replicas tend to fall into three categories, perfect copies built over several years, in which the owners spend much time and money tracking down as many period correct and original parts as is possible.
Cars built primarily with competition in mind, they tend to have the correct mechanicals (or they won't get FIA paper), and cars like the orange car which give the look and some of the feel of the original, but most underestimate the costs of bringing them up to FIA spec or making them into accurate replicas of an original.

[V8KSN]

EXACT replicas are a bit pants as if you have the time and money to create a bespoke 911, why not make it unique?

As for hot rod 911s? Now you are talking!

This is what Porsche and the 911 (for me) is all about. The changing and swapping of parts to make your own ideal 911 would be a project and challenge I would love to do one day. Right now I dont have the time or budget or skills Just look at what Singer have done with the 964 chassis!

Who doesn't love a hot rod?

Dario Franchitti has one too

http://www.clintdavis.net/blog/2013/01/dario-franc...

[uktrailmonster]

I think replicas can be fine. Many 'original' cars are rusty old dogs and many more have been rebuilt/restored to the point of not being very different to a high quality replica based on original parts. What's really the difference between a re-shelled original and a replica built with non-matching numnbers, but still original Porsche parts? Obviously sticking an RS badge on a rusty old T doesn't count, but what's wrong with a '73T completely rebuilt with proper RS running gear, engine and interior? Nothing in my book and a lot cheaper than a numbers matching car!

[IMI A]

With rare cars being so expensive I think they're fine. 90% of the feel of an early car and i some cases the reps are more sorted cars than their rarified ancestors. CH car and Blue ST are to die for.

[GC8]

mrdemon said:

my view is it will always be a "replica" and Porsche have a real car in every price range to own.

Errmmm...

[tp81]

Slippydiff said:

I'm afraid the orange RSR rep by no means accurately replicates an RSR.
The wheels are not the correct widths, and genuine 11 & 9 J Fuchs aren't cheap.
The low throttle MFi butterfly set up on the car is wrong, reps are available, but a genuine set up will most likely cost you £8-10k+.

The brake calipers are 930 turbo items, which whilst they're FIA approved, they're not the period correct items. My guess is the car doesn't have the correct short steel rear trailing arms either. Add those few bits up and you'd be surprised how much they'll cost to make period correct.
With these cars the devil is in the detail. in my experience the RSR replicas tend to fall into three categories, perfect copies built over several years, in which the owners spend much time and money tracking down as many period correct and original parts as is possible.
Cars built primarily with competition in mind, they tend to have the correct mechanicals (or they won't get FIA paper), and cars like the orange car which give the look and some of the feel of the original, but most underestimate the costs of bringing them up to FIA spec or making them into accurate replicas of an original.

The seller of this car doesn't hide a lot of what you have said and I believe the long term intention was to complete some of the work. I wasn't meaning 100% to specification replicas like the amazing car Mike Moore completed,

http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2...

or

http://www.aasesales.com/blogs/cars-racing/7506052...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technic...

Each of these are in a league of their own.

Its the middle ground that interests me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMkCNv6Lstk

http://www.paul-stephens.com/Porsche-911-ST-Recrea...

These are stunning. I think the only real way to get a real feel for these cars would be to drive them or similar. If funds allowed I wouldn't hesitate, part of the enjoyment would be sourcing and specifying the detail. Every car offers something different, the only hope with some of these cars is that the market continues to think the same. M Walker seems to be doing OK in the States with his own take on things.

http://magnuswalker911.blogspot.co.uk/p/porsche-91...

Again a league of his own.

[Slippydiff]

tp81 said:

The seller of this car doesn't hide a lot of what you have said and I believe the long term intention was to complete some of the work. I wasn't meaning 100% to specification replicas like the amazing car Mike Moore completed,

http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2...

or

http://www.aasesales.com/blogs/cars-racing/7506052...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technic...

Each of these are in a league of their own.

Its the middle ground that interests me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMkCNv6Lstk

http://www.paul-stephens.com/Porsche-911-ST-Recrea...

These are stunning. I think the only real way to get a real feel for these cars would be to drive them or similar. If funds allowed I wouldn't hesitate, part of the enjoyment would be sourcing and specifying the detail. Every car offers something different, the only hope with some of these cars is that the market continues to think the same. M Walker seems to be doing OK in the States with his own take on things.

Walker's creations divide opinion massively. Personally I'm not a fan, but I'm all too aware that many others think they're the best thing since sliced bread.

I began building a genuine '73 2.8 RSR rep from a correct '73 ex- California LHD, 2.4T that had been fitted with a 3.2 engine. The shell was an excellent starting point being non-sunroof, with solid floor pans, inner sills, kidney bowls etc etc.

As the costs ramped up and I became aware the end result wouldn't make for a particularly nice road car, I started to get cold feet.
I sold the project having had the shell caged to FIA spec, steel arches fitted, and ALL the correct RSR modifications undertaken. Because I'd based the project on a LHD car with a '73 chassis number (and all the bits I'd gathered for the project were correct) I got out of the project pretty much cost neutral.

The owner of the orange car may well have been transparent about his cars spec, but the few items I've highlighted as being not present or incorrect will cost many thousands of pound to source and fit. As such, I'm merely highlighting that the "well built replica" you appear to consider it. Isn't.
That's not to say it's a bad car, merely that it isn't an accurate/"well built" RSR replica.

On that basis, anyone thinking of entering the lions den that is 2.8 RSR or ST replicas, should be aware that Caveat Emptor is most definitely the order of the day.

[SidewaysSi]

GC8 said:

mrdemon said:

my view is it will always be a "replica" and Porsche have a real car in every price range to own.

Errmmm...

Indeed. I can't get what I would ideally want from any of Porsche's standard models and not at the price point I am coming in at. I think a well prepared replica is an excellent idea and many are extremely desirable to these eyes.

[tp81]

Slippydiff said:

Walker's creations divide opinion massively. Personally I'm not a fan, but I'm all too aware that many others think they're the best thing since sliced bread.

I began building a genuine '73 2.8 RSR rep from a correct '73 ex- California LHD, 2.4T that had been fitted with a 3.2 engine. The shell was an excellent starting point being non-sunroof, with solid floor pans, inner sills, kidney bowls etc etc.

As the costs ramped up and I became aware the end result wouldn't make for a particularly nice road car, I started to get cold feet.
I sold the project having had the shell caged to FIA spec, steel arches fitted, and ALL the correct RSR modifications undertaken. Because I'd based the project on a LHD car with a '73 chassis number (and all the bits I'd gathered for the project were correct) I got out of the project pretty much cost neutral.

The owner of the orange car may well have been transparent about his cars spec, but the few items I've highlighted as being not present or incorrect will cost many thousands of pound to source and fit. As such, I'm merely highlighting that the "well built replica" you appear to consider it. Isn't.
That's not to say it's a bad car, merely that it isn't an accurate/"well built" RSR replica.

On that basis, anyone thinking of entering the lions den that is 2.8 RSR or ST replicas, should be aware that Caveat Emptor is most definitely the order of the day.

I appreciate your view, also clearly one from experience. Thanks for that. I think a lot of what you have said would be what I would fear could happen,I can imagine the details would take over and you have to commit to the project and then you run the risk of creating a car not really suitable for the road, the RSR is a race car.

Did you have a thread running on DDK or similar with some of the build. I enjoy reading and following the restoration threads, great place to pick up ideas.

[Slippydiff]

tp81 said:

I appreciate your view, also clearly one from experience. Thanks for that. I think a lot of what you have said would be what I would fear could happen,I can imagine the details would take over and you have to commit to the project and then you run the risk of creating a car not really suitable for the road, the RSR is a race car.

Did you have a thread running on DDK or similar with some of the build. I enjoy reading and following the restoration threads, great place to pick up ideas.

I've photos of all the stages of my shell prep, including the shell being hoisted out after the dipping process, the shell on a spit whilst the various panels where removed/replaced/modified etc etc.

I'd planned to post a thread after the car had been built. Cheating perhaps I know, but I personally find that build threads that go on for page after page/year after year, become tedious when they're often composed of numerous "Subscribed/any more updates ?/wow, awesome project/ why did you use black bolts when the originals would've been silver" type comments.h

What became very obvious to me was that a large amount of these projects fall into "the journey is better than the holiday" category. For many the chasing down and sourcing of the rare and original parts is as bigger part of the enjoyment as the building of the car. And that once built, the end result is either too perfect or too extreme to use. Or that the real buzz came from creating something, and that once the creation is complete, the novelty lessens hugely.

[supersport]

Slippydiff said:

What became very obvious to me was that a large amount of these projects fall into "the journey is better than the holiday" category. For many the chasing down and sourcing of the rare and original parts is as bigger part of the enjoyment as the building of the car. And that once built, the end result is either too perfect or too extreme to use. Or that the real buzz came from creating something, and that once the creation is complete, the novelty lessens hugely.

Interesting that you should say that, after I had my car restored I barely touched it for the first year, almost couldn't face it and came close to selling.

Second year though and back to enjoying it properly.

[LWT RSR]

They are a great thing to create. All your favourite things thrown into the mix....wow!

Make sure you have a budget in mind and try and stick to it.

I'm on my 4th build now which has taken two years but it shouldnt have.

Unfortunately their are a few wkers out there who think they are professionals.

Don't like mentioning names but whatever you do please avoid Andy at R to RSR,

What a complete tosser with a st run company!!!

My latest build is nearly done but i'm already thinking about the next one.

My orange 2.8 RSR build earnt me £10 k and it was fantastic.



Go for it my friend and recreate something that totally suits YOU.

All the very best of luck to you.;

[tp81]

Nice looking stable of cars. Love the early Mercedes.

[BertBert]

Impressed that the name and shame has survived!

I think that 911 replicas/hot rods are great if they do what you want them to do. But you have to be careful that you know what you want and get it. So if you want something that is the driving essence of (say) a 2.7RS, that's different from trying to create or have a "parts-correct" replica.

Just beware crap work and crap cars. There are a lot about and seemingly a lot of poor stuff produced by specialists with good reputations. And with prices that look daft at the moment, quite a lot of motivation to market any old tat for a big price.

Bert

[squirejo]

And so, it appears there is no consensus on well built replicas apart from the fact they should be well built. Which takes you back to Dan's car. It may not be a detail correct, exact replica, but well built, by Tuthills, it certainly is.

http://www.francistuthill.co.uk/news_more.asp?News...