Resto/Mod Backdating costs...

[IMI A]

And 4 to 5 year waiting list for Singer turbo!

[thegreenhell]

I find all the legal disclaimers interesting. I know they've had legal issues with Porsche over various issues. I noticed in the film that, although the cars were all wearing Porsche crests on the bonnet, you didn't see the word Porsche anywhere. On some of the shots they had even blurred out the large PORSCHE script painted on some of the cars, and the ones they looked at closely had no script on them at all.

[GTRene]

IMI A said:

And 4 to 5 year waiting list for Singer turbo!

holy moly, a lot can happen between that time.

[Mintbird]

Donor cars are regular 964s not 964 turbo

[Ffffaster]

This Rennsport has been for sale for absolutely ages, and on multiple sites.

What's the Rennsport reptuation for these builds?

If we'd be crtical, what would we call out?

These are such high asking prices and I guess that's why they don't sell? The black RSR lookalike has been on various auction platfroms and barely saw £160,000 and I'd argue it's a nice/better car? Then agian, I'm not an expert!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186505494907?itmmeta=01...

[964Cup]

It's still on torsion bars and is 3.2 Carrera based. So it will drive like an old car (because it is an old car). That exhaust, apart from sticking out too far, will be annoyingly loud if the similar item I recently removed from my 356 is anything to go by. I'm surprised a "blueprinted" 3.4 on custom injection still has a redline at 6200rpm, and I'd be equally surprised if it delivers 300+ bhp at those revs. I'd want to drive it before passing comment on the driveability and cooling of the motor. I'd also like to know if the lights have been upgraded - it's not mentioned, and period 911 lamps are not fabulous. The wheels are too wide for the tyres fitted, especially at the front, so you get a "stretched" look - ok on a chavved-out Golf, less so on £200k of 911. Also they don't mention having added PAS as far as I can see, so it will be a pig to manoeuvre at low speed; the ride will also be on the firm side of firm if it's on clubsport dampers.

The money's not intrinsically ridiculous. I haven't actually worked out what my 964 cab has cost me, but it's probably close to this number. I don't think mine is now worth £200k, though - these projects rarely are unless you can get the Singer stardust effect.

[KittyLitter]

Ffffaster said:

This Rennsport has been for sale for absolutely ages, and on multiple sites.

What's the Rennsport reptuation for these builds?

If we'd be crtical, what would we call out?

These are such high asking prices and I guess that's why they don't sell? The black RSR lookalike has been on various auction platfroms and barely saw £160,000 and I'd argue it's a nice/better car? Then agian, I'm not an expert!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186505494907?itmmeta=01...

Saw a Rennsport earlier in the week at AutoFarm and had chance for a good look in the engine and cabin. It was dark green with a dark green interior. It left me gooey eyed, the craftsmanship was amazing. But that lime green one above looks horrid by comparison - which leads me to say - isn't half the issue (or more) that as they are customer commissions, unless you find someone with the exact same taste as whom originally commissioned it then it'll sit for years - and if you have that amount of money to spend on a toy, then you'd no doubt want to do your own commission.

That, or its simply waaaaay overpriced. It is not that far off the cost of a non-matching numbers original RS.

https://autofarm.co.uk/1973-porsche-911-carrera-rs...

I'd rather that than a clone.

[Slippydiff]

964Cup said:

It's still on torsion bars and is 3.2 Carrera based. So it will drive like an old car (because it is an old car). That exhaust, apart from sticking out too far, will be annoyingly loud if the similar item I recently removed from my 356 is anything to go by. I'm surprised a "blueprinted" 3.4 on custom injection still has a redline at 6200rpm, and I'd be equally surprised if it delivers 300+ bhp at those revs. I'd want to drive it before passing comment on the driveability and cooling of the motor. I'd also like to know if the lights have been upgraded - it's not mentioned, and period 911 lamps are not fabulous. The wheels are too wide for the tyres fitted, especially at the front, so you get a "stretched" look - ok on a chavved-out Golf, less so on £200k of 911. Also they don't mention having added PAS as far as I can see, so it will be a pig to manoeuvre at low speed; the ride will also be on the firm side of firm if it's on clubsport dampers.

The money's not intrinsically ridiculous. I haven't actually worked out what my 964 cab has cost me, but it's probably close to this number. I don't think mine is now worth £200k, though - these projects rarely are unless you can get the Singer stardust effect.

It's a 3.2 Carrera in drag, so unless the 2.8 RSR look really is your "thing" nobody in their right mind is going to open their wallet to the tune of £215k for what is effectively a bastardised 3.2 Carrera.
It's intrinsic value was as a 3.2 Carrera, but once modified, that value disappears, to be replaced (some might say, especially the vendor ..) by the amount the conversion cost, the reality is somewhat different however.

I'm not conversant with 3.2 Carrera values, but I'd rather have one of these for less than half the price of the Rennsport car :

https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/13766505

https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/16887815

https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/16245070

https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/16711157

[RSTurboPaul]

964Cup said:

It's still on torsion bars and is 3.2 Carrera based. So it will drive like an old car (because it is an old car). That exhaust, apart from sticking out too far, will be annoyingly loud if the similar item I recently removed from my 356 is anything to go by. I'm surprised a "blueprinted" 3.4 on custom injection still has a redline at 6200rpm, and I'd be equally surprised if it delivers 300+ bhp at those revs. I'd want to drive it before passing comment on the driveability and cooling of the motor. I'd also like to know if the lights have been upgraded - it's not mentioned, and period 911 lamps are not fabulous. The wheels are too wide for the tyres fitted, especially at the front, so you get a "stretched" look - ok on a chavved-out Golf, less so on £200k of 911. Also they don't mention having added PAS as far as I can see, so it will be a pig to manoeuvre at low speed; the ride will also be on the firm side of firm if it's on clubsport dampers.

The money's not intrinsically ridiculous. I haven't actually worked out what my 964 cab has cost me, but it's probably close to this number. I don't think mine is now worth £200k, though - these projects rarely are unless you can get the Singer stardust effect.

My understanding was by fitting wider wheels and 'stretching' tyres a little, it might remove some sidewall flex under cornering and therefore improve handling/feedback?

Obviously a stanced Golf with ridiculous stretch is taking it too far

[Yellow491]

RSTurboPaul said:

964Cup said:

It's still on torsion bars and is 3.2 Carrera based. So it will drive like an old car (because it is an old car). That exhaust, apart from sticking out too far, will be annoyingly loud if the similar item I recently removed from my 356 is anything to go by. I'm surprised a "blueprinted" 3.4 on custom injection still has a redline at 6200rpm, and I'd be equally surprised if it delivers 300+ bhp at those revs. I'd want to drive it before passing comment on the driveability and cooling of the motor. I'd also like to know if the lights have been upgraded - it's not mentioned, and period 911 lamps are not fabulous. The wheels are too wide for the tyres fitted, especially at the front, so you get a "stretched" look - ok on a chavved-out Golf, less so on £200k of 911. Also they don't mention having added PAS as far as I can see, so it will be a pig to manoeuvre at low speed; the ride will also be on the firm side of firm if it's on clubsport dampers.

The money's not intrinsically ridiculous. I haven't actually worked out what my 964 cab has cost me, but it's probably close to this number. I don't think mine is now worth £200k, though - these projects rarely are unless you can get the Singer stardust effect.

My understanding was by fitting wider wheels and 'stretching' tyres a little, it might remove some sidewall flex under cornering and therefore improve handling/feedback?

Obviously a stanced Golf with ridiculous stretch is taking it too far

Rennsport have /do build some nice cars now,some early cars were a little to be desired,still look for rust on these early cars,or at least addressed.
Sidewall flex is desired on the archaic suspension of the early cars.

[964Cup]

RSTurboPaul said:

My understanding was by fitting wider wheels and 'stretching' tyres a little, it might remove some sidewall flex under cornering and therefore improve handling/feedback?

Obviously a stanced Golf with ridiculous stretch is taking it too far

'srubbish. The tyres are designed to work with their sidewall height on correctly-sized rims. I'd say the last thing this car needs is less compliance. Interesting also the spec makes no mention of any other suspension improvements other than track dampers and stiffer torsion bars. It's not got a cage, so the shell really won't be all that stiff, and 3.2 Carrera suspension is pretty agricultural. I would not want to drive this in the wet, or on a bumpy road. I used to race a 3.2 Carrera which had been converted to coil-overs, and had a cage, and proper motorsport dampers - it still had fairly challenging handling.

This is why people do back dates in the first place - to get the modern (-ish) handling of a 964 (including ABS) with the look of a 70's 911. This effectively is a 70's 911, gearbox aside, and will handle like one. Back-dating a G-body makes some sense inasmuch as it's much closer to the previous generation than is the 964, but it's definitely not value-enhancing in my view. But then my feelings on back-dating in general are fairly well known.

[RSTurboPaul]

964Cup said:

RSTurboPaul said:

My understanding was by fitting wider wheels and 'stretching' tyres a little, it might remove some sidewall flex under cornering and therefore improve handling/feedback?

Obviously a stanced Golf with ridiculous stretch is taking it too far

'srubbish. The tyres are designed to work with their sidewall height on correctly-sized rims. I'd say the last thing this car needs is less compliance. Interesting also the spec makes no mention of any other suspension improvements other than track dampers and stiffer torsion bars. It's not got a cage, so the shell really won't be all that stiff, and 3.2 Carrera suspension is pretty agricultural. I would not want to drive this in the wet, or on a bumpy road. I used to race a 3.2 Carrera which had been converted to coil-overs, and had a cage, and proper motorsport dampers - it still had fairly challenging handling.

This is why people do back dates in the first place - to get the modern (-ish) handling of a 964 (including ABS) with the look of a 70's 911. This effectively is a 70's 911, gearbox aside, and will handle like one. Back-dating a G-body makes some sense inasmuch as it's much closer to the previous generation than is the 964, but it's definitely not value-enhancing in my view. But then my feelings on back-dating in general are fairly well known.

How are we defining 'correctly-sized rims'?

Renault fitted the same size tyres (185/55/15) to the Clio 16v and the Williams, yet they had 6.5" and 7" wide wheels respectively. Which is the correct size? At which point does variation in wheel width for a given tyre width stop being 'correct'?

[Mintbird]

Ffffaster said:

This Rennsport has been for sale for absolutely ages, and on multiple sites.

What's the Rennsport reptuation for these builds?

If we'd be crtical, what would we call out?

These are such high asking prices and I guess that's why they don't sell? The black RSR lookalike has been on various auction platfroms and barely saw £160,000 and I'd argue it's a nice/better car? Then agian, I'm not an expert!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186505494907?itmmeta=01...

CC asked to do another run, reserve has been lowered I think its a good buy at that price - fully bespoke Richard Chamberlain engine, 316 bhp at 6400 RPM. If it doesnt sell I might just keep it https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/1988-porsche-9...

[Orangecurry]

RSTurboPaul said:

My understanding was by fitting wider wheels and 'stretching' tyres a little, it might remove some sidewall flex under cornering and therefore improve handling/feedback?

964Cup said:

'srubbish. The tyres are designed to work with their sidewall height on correctly-sized rims. I'd say the last thing this car needs is less compliance. Interesting also the spec makes no mention of any other suspension improvements other than track dampers and stiffer torsion bars. It's not got a cage, so the shell really won't be all that stiff, and 3.2 Carrera suspension is pretty agricultural. I would not want to drive this in the wet, or on a bumpy road. I used to race a 3.2 Carrera which had been converted to coil-overs, and had a cage, and proper motorsport dampers - it still had fairly challenging handling.

You are both correct - slightly stretched sidewalls removes unwanted sidewall flex, but a specific car might need that sidewall flex if the suspension is unforgiving.

Now shake hands and say 'yes I see your point of view'.... the last thing we need in the world is more polarisation over a non-argument

[964Cup]

Orangecurry said:

You are both correct - slightly stretched sidewalls removes unwanted sidewall flex, but a specific car might need that sidewall flex if the suspension is unforgiving.

Now shake hands and say 'yes I see your point of view'.... the last thing we need in the world is more polarisation over a non-argument

I don't think we're getting particularly grumpy about it - at least I'm not. But there are actual regulations for this. Here's a sample: https://www.nankangtyre.co.uk/assets/5681d4133c/Na...

You will see that the permissible rim width for 205/50 is between 5.5J and 7.5J; 9J is therefore more than a little extreme. 7.5-9J for the 245/45s on the rear, which on this car are a 10J. The standard widths for a turbo-body Carrera in period on a 16" rim were 7J front and 9J rear with the same tyre sizes.

One effect of this, apart from spoiling the handling, will be to lower the effective gear ratios (because stretching the tyre also makes it shallower). The correct thing to do would be to go to wider tyres all round, but that probably means rubbing the arches - because the wheels are too wide - and would make the steering even heavier.

Anyway, the directive was to nitpick a car none of us are going to buy. I believe I have picked as many nits as I can find. Anyone got a finer-toothed comb?

[Orangecurry]

It's a tooth-comb - for heaven's sake man the 'ed' is completely superfluous.

I run a 225 on an 8.5J front - it is certainly slightly stretched, but gives a very 'responsive' combination - it is not as delicate and communicative as the 205 7J that preceded it, but I can still tell what's going on.

[RSTurboPaul]

Orangecurry said:

RSTurboPaul said:

My understanding was by fitting wider wheels and 'stretching' tyres a little, it might remove some sidewall flex under cornering and therefore improve handling/feedback?

964Cup said:

'srubbish. The tyres are designed to work with their sidewall height on correctly-sized rims. I'd say the last thing this car needs is less compliance. Interesting also the spec makes no mention of any other suspension improvements other than track dampers and stiffer torsion bars. It's not got a cage, so the shell really won't be all that stiff, and 3.2 Carrera suspension is pretty agricultural. I would not want to drive this in the wet, or on a bumpy road. I used to race a 3.2 Carrera which had been converted to coil-overs, and had a cage, and proper motorsport dampers - it still had fairly challenging handling.

You are both correct - slightly stretched sidewalls removes unwanted sidewall flex, but a specific car might need that sidewall flex if the suspension is unforgiving.

Now shake hands and say 'yes I see your point of view'.... the last thing we need in the world is more polarisation over a non-argument

What?! This is PH, you know

[KittyLitter]

Mintbird said:

CC asked to do another run, reserve has been lowered I think its a good buy at that price - fully bespoke Richard Chamberlain engine, 316 bhp at 6400 RPM. If it doesnt sell I might just keep it https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/1988-porsche-9...

Might be worth waiting until the Singer Turbo buzz has filtered through for a while?