968 Turbo S Prototype

[Leins]

I see a prototype version, owned from new, sold at the RM Sotheby auction at Monterey for $516k: https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mo23/monterey/l...



While obviously a bit of a different beast, it does make me wonder why 968 CS values haven’t gone stratospheric in the current crazy market

[gtsralph]

There were circa 14 Turbo S 968s produced and a handful of Turbo RS out of more than 12,000 968 of all types. 1,300 968 “Clubsport” versions. Cooking 968 cars are not rare.

[Leins]

I agree the Turbo S is a very rare car, but the 968 CS isn’t exactly common in the grand scheme of things. As far as I’m aware, there were nearly 1000 more 964 RS produced

[flat6crocer]

Leins said:

it does make me wonder why 968 CS values haven’t gone stratospheric in the current crazy market

Because it's a four banger, looks relatively prosaic and is short on model 'heritage'.

[Leins]

flat6crocer said:

Because it's a four banger, looks relatively prosaic and is short on model 'heritage'.

All criticisms you could level at that half-million quid 968 Turbo S

[flat6crocer]

Leins said:

All criticisms you could level at that half-million quid 968 Turbo S

Ultra rare and collectors spaff their load over that. Sure they didn't make zillions of 968 CS, but it's series production and made in reasonable numbers. It's unremarkable re its rarity.

Turbo S's extreme rarity, on the other hand, puts it in a very, very special category. Not saying it makes sense. Personally, I wouldn't want one for £15k let alone half a mil or whatever. But it's not at all hard to see what's driving the high value of the Turbo S and the low value of the CS.

[PomBstard]

gtsralph said:

There were circa 14 Turbo S 968s produced and a handful of Turbo RS out of more than 12,000 968 of all types. 1,300 968 “Clubsport” versions. Cooking 968 cars are not rare.

Apparently…

17 Turbo S
1,538 CS
5,731 Coupe
3,959 Cab

11.245 total

Adding up Coupe and CS numbers and CS is about 21% of all coupe 968 models.

Cost to turn 968 Coupe/Cab/CS into 968 Turbo is equivalent to around £25k for 8v head inc lsd and updating front brakes. It’s about another £5k or so on top is you want to use the 16v head. Not that I’ve looked into this at all, in any way, oh no, not me….

[eldavo]

Nowhere near that cost.

I’ve put a 16v S2 3.0 Turbo into my 944 Turbo S in the last 12 months. Just pulled the turbo yesterday as 500bhp is better that 405bhp.

My car is in the next 911 & Porsche World magazine out on the 27th October.

[PomBstard]

Sounds like fun! Can you give an approx cost? The number I used was the sum total of parts and labour as done by a local transaxle specialist on a car earlier this year - split was about 35/65 labour/parts

[Penguinracer]

Eldavo I read your article-what a lovely build.
Who installed your Darton sleeves?
They seem to have a mixed reputation, but I think it really comes down to using an experienced installer / machine shop.

I’’m nearing the end of a restoration on my 1990 944 turbo.I’ve retained the original block , dry-sumped, Darton sleeved to 104mm bore to be a 2.7 litre. It is awaiting the installation of its ECU ( EMTRON KV8) in January. It’ll be CDI ignition with sequential injection & ignition.

I’m running a load of Speed Force Racing (SFR) parts ( intake manifold, N/A cylinder head, Stage 2 fuel system, exhaust, Stage 2 Zircotec ceramic coated headers, Stage 2 intercooler) plus a Garrett GTX3576 Gen 2 with 0.83 hotside.

Suspension - everything is rose-jointed with Elephant Racing sphericals, Tarret ARB’s, KW Clubsport 2-ways, Elephant Racing 28mm Quick Change Torsion bars, Racers Edge billet A-arms, Big Blacks, 044 lift pump feeding a swirl pot & then twin 044’s to ID1300X injectors.
I’ve gone with a Guard Transmissions 50/80 LSD with. Setrab oil cooler, KEP Stage 1 PP/Clutch plate, Clewett cam trigger gear, TTV 60-2 flywheel crank triggering, Mahle 8:1 pistons, Carrillo rods, Setrab oil coolers for the engine (925) & power-steering

The dry-sump tank & breather are in the spare wheel well with the swirl pot under a sealed stainless steel cover.

Interior is stock apart from a pair of black leather Recaro Classic Pole Position ABE seats & a Plex multifunction display in the cubby in front of the gear stick.

I’ve two sets of wheels , 993 hollow-spokes wearing Yokohama A048R F-225/45/18, R-265/35/18 & some new Fuchs 18’s wearing Yokohama A052’s.
It’s been a long slow build that’s really been on the back burner while other car & house stuff has been happening.

[Penguinracer]

…I omitted the 70mm tb & Jon Milledge ST8-14 cam with Linsey Racing valve springs & Ferrea Superalloy valves.

[sgl1966]

I believe you think they are Darton wet sleeves installed , they are dry sleeves .

[Penguinracer]

Mine are certainly Darton wet sleeves. The bores were entirely machined away with a flycutter, leaving the “bath tub” in the block into which the Darton MID sleeves were fitted, a torque plate bolted down & then honed to a 104mm bore. It’s the same process as Hartech use for their ceramic coated aluminium sleeves in the M96 & M97.

Did’n’t Eldavo do the same to his 3 litre block?

[sgl1966]

As I mentioned , they are dry liners .

Mine was from hartech , 2.5 block with nicosil coated aluminum wet liners and 968 head . A Baz side project .

[Penguinracer]

Put it this way, nothing of the Porsche bore/cylinder remains in my block. The water is in direct contact with the interlocking Darton ductile iron sleeves. They are by definition wet sleeves because they are in direct contact with the coolant are not fitted inside an existing bore.

[Penguinracer]

Darton MID sleeves have been available for the 944 turbo since 2003. Chris White of 944 Enhancements (New York state) was involved with their early testing & development, I consulted Chris on my project & he provided piston clearance & ring gaps to Stanwood Engineering who are very experienced in both wet & dry sleeving & did the work. Chris also sourced my Mahle 8:1 pistons. I bought my SR8-14 cam from Jon Milledge (California) who also used to wet sleeve these motors & sold bigger head studs which obviously involved re-tapping the block.
These guys were wet-sleeving these blocks long before Baz at Hartech even looked at his Nikasil aluminium sleeves.

[sgl1966]

I am sure yours is bigger than mine .

I might add I to have nothing left in the block just aluminium wet liner in contact with liners all interlocked together. Barry had some made for this project . I also have larger 9/16" one off head studs that did require the block and head maching to fit .
The water outake on the block was welded on the 2.5 to match 968 head .

I think Baz had a thread on here about it a few years ago . He started to put the bits together after the 8 valve 3L turbo as he saw much more potential in the 16v head .

This is the direction the 968rs would have gone in time .

Still he is the new kid on the block so who knows how long it will last.

[Penguinracer]

I recall the thread in which Barry was explaining his objectives with a low-boost, high-torque 3-litre 16 valve.

He was initially unaware that tuners in the U.S.had been building highly tuned 3 litre + , 16 valve engines for many years as it's quite a niche group of enthusiasts who've gone down this road.

I'd estimate that in the U.S.there are around 50 documented Porsche 944 turbos running 3 litre or larger 16 valve engines and an unknown number built which remain undocumented on social media.

Some of those are running alusil bores, some wet sleeves and a few dry sleeves.
Some are running a twin pulley cam set-up with custom cams, while others are using the stock 16 valve valve-train set-up. There are some dry-sumped cars & a good number tuned for E85.

[sgl1966]

Nope , the 8 valve he did was low boost high torque .
The 16v was aiming to be a different beast .

[Penguinracer]

Was it running a standalone ECU, twin-pulley cam timing, sequential ignition & injection?
What turbo was it running?
Was it wet or dry dumped?