UK 951 Race Cars - Where are they?
Discussion
After much deliberation I've decided I'm building my 951 to run in CSCC Future Classics; it's going to be a reasonably sensible spec and I'm keeping the car road legal. I'm not out to win, just to be reasonably competitive and most importantly to have fun racing against other cool cars.
Over the last few months I've been doing a ton of reading up on other 944/951 club cars and also Cup cars, but all the info on the web relates to cars overseas and it seems that hardly anyone (possibly no one at present in club circuit racing) races 951's in the UK. Yet the yanks are mad for it, using them from everything from production classes right through to full on GT endurance racers. There seem to be a few being used in Europe too, including a few Cup still being used in anger. So clearly they offer a great package for racing at a club level. On one hand the lack of UK race cars has been bugging me, but on the other hand it just encourages me even more to build mine.
Whilst the costs to build and run a 951 are going to be a bit more than an S2 (which there are many of at club events), a 951 should be a competitive and reliable car to run in the 3-4l classes, as long as the tune/boost is kept to a sensible level (300ish bhp much like a cup car) and the cooling system is good. Maybe everyone has gone for 911's instead, but the costs of doing that now are prohibitive to say the least.
So where are they all folks?
Over the last few months I've been doing a ton of reading up on other 944/951 club cars and also Cup cars, but all the info on the web relates to cars overseas and it seems that hardly anyone (possibly no one at present in club circuit racing) races 951's in the UK. Yet the yanks are mad for it, using them from everything from production classes right through to full on GT endurance racers. There seem to be a few being used in Europe too, including a few Cup still being used in anger. So clearly they offer a great package for racing at a club level. On one hand the lack of UK race cars has been bugging me, but on the other hand it just encourages me even more to build mine.
Whilst the costs to build and run a 951 are going to be a bit more than an S2 (which there are many of at club events), a 951 should be a competitive and reliable car to run in the 3-4l classes, as long as the tune/boost is kept to a sensible level (300ish bhp much like a cup car) and the cooling system is good. Maybe everyone has gone for 911's instead, but the costs of doing that now are prohibitive to say the least.
So where are they all folks?
They were always more expensive to run than the S2 and then they got banned from the PCGB Club championship for being too powerful, and the club could not control the boost being run! They were given a home in the Porsche Open series but when that series closed there were not that many places to race them.
A few went to Ireland and there have been a couple racing in CSCC but they are just expensive, if capable, cars with a crude early generation engine management system. If someone had the money to race one with a Hartech or JMG type race engine build with a modern ecu then they would frighten a few people!
A few went to Ireland and there have been a couple racing in CSCC but they are just expensive, if capable, cars with a crude early generation engine management system. If someone had the money to race one with a Hartech or JMG type race engine build with a modern ecu then they would frighten a few people!
I thought you might be along to answer this one Andy. Interesting, so there must have been quite a few at one point then, probably before they were really considered to be classics. There must be a few hiding in the woodwork somewhere!
I guess ultimately an E36 M3 provides the same level of performance more cost effectively, so I guess many have gone for those instead. A thought that has crossed my mind, but I'd sooner race a 944. Plus I only plan on doing a couple of events a year so it should keep the costs manageable and it something major breaks, I'll just park it up until I've fixed it. Really I can't think of another classic car I'd sooner race that I can afford! Plus it's good to be different and I figure that being as Porsche built a factory 951 racer, as interest in them gathers they should be a very credible classic racer in the future. I'm thinking long term with this car, which isn't like me at all when it comes to cars!
Engine management is something I've considered and in the medium term I plan to go for an Augment or VEMS setup, coupled with a tweaked K26. I also plan on fitting a larger oil cooler over the winter.
You're right though, I reckon if you threw enough money at a 951 you could build a very serious bit of kit indeed. Although the old 951 vs 928 debate will rumble on until someone does it (my pockets certainly aren't deep enough to build a car to compete with the fast 928s!).
I guess ultimately an E36 M3 provides the same level of performance more cost effectively, so I guess many have gone for those instead. A thought that has crossed my mind, but I'd sooner race a 944. Plus I only plan on doing a couple of events a year so it should keep the costs manageable and it something major breaks, I'll just park it up until I've fixed it. Really I can't think of another classic car I'd sooner race that I can afford! Plus it's good to be different and I figure that being as Porsche built a factory 951 racer, as interest in them gathers they should be a very credible classic racer in the future. I'm thinking long term with this car, which isn't like me at all when it comes to cars!
Engine management is something I've considered and in the medium term I plan to go for an Augment or VEMS setup, coupled with a tweaked K26. I also plan on fitting a larger oil cooler over the winter.
You're right though, I reckon if you threw enough money at a 951 you could build a very serious bit of kit indeed. Although the old 951 vs 928 debate will rumble on until someone does it (my pockets certainly aren't deep enough to build a car to compete with the fast 928s!).
I don't have much knowledge on the actual racing side but I'm using Augment Automotives "Honeybadger" Turbo (I'm the first to use it) and ECU set up with integrated boost. It works very well and has a lot of modern technology built in. What's better to me is you can make the engine bay look pretty much standard. Tom has always been very helpful to me and helped out when I've had any questions throughout my engine build.
We run one in CSCC until it went thru its headgasket at Brands earlier this year...
Ours runs a K26/K27 hybrid, different throttle body, steel dry liners, Woessner pistons, Lindsay racing dual port waste gate, ported head, 800cc injectors, 3bar fpr, Bosch 044 pump and a 3" exhaust.
We also went with Augment. The system is brilliant, Tom has been very helpful, however his guy who mapped it was frankly rubbish, which ultimately led to the blown gasket. Anyhow, she is all buttoned up with a new Cometic and ready for a proper mapping session at Torque Developments.
Things we love - ours has the biggest, baddest Custom Cages installed. As a matter of fact, the whole of the UK steel production in 2010 was used for the pipes. It still has steel panels, yet it comes at 1220kg with the driver. The chassis is astounding, especially for a car developed in the 1970s. It is cheap to run and in the right hands - Mark Koeberle won the Future Classics as a novice in 2010 - very fast.
Things we hate - the engine is frankly s
t. 8:1 compression and a 8v head make for utterly mundane experience when off boost. The lack of ABS (ours is a 1985 car) and the st brakes (unless you bag a Turbo S) - we fitted rebuilt 928GT calipers at the front. Not much else.
The 944T was homologated by Porsche, and is eligible for things like the Youngtimer. In years to come, it will only become more sought after.
Why aren't we at the front of the pack in CSCC? Err, talent deficiency, lack of seat time and last but not least teething problems with the brakes - a booster went boom at Snetterton, original early Turbo front calipers seized at Brands at Race 1 and then ultimately the headgasket blew up.
Hopefully this time we will make our Turdo run better and actually do it justice....
http://www.augmentautomotive.co.uk/944-turbo-race-...
Ours runs a K26/K27 hybrid, different throttle body, steel dry liners, Woessner pistons, Lindsay racing dual port waste gate, ported head, 800cc injectors, 3bar fpr, Bosch 044 pump and a 3" exhaust.
We also went with Augment. The system is brilliant, Tom has been very helpful, however his guy who mapped it was frankly rubbish, which ultimately led to the blown gasket. Anyhow, she is all buttoned up with a new Cometic and ready for a proper mapping session at Torque Developments.
Things we love - ours has the biggest, baddest Custom Cages installed. As a matter of fact, the whole of the UK steel production in 2010 was used for the pipes. It still has steel panels, yet it comes at 1220kg with the driver. The chassis is astounding, especially for a car developed in the 1970s. It is cheap to run and in the right hands - Mark Koeberle won the Future Classics as a novice in 2010 - very fast.
Things we hate - the engine is frankly s
t. 8:1 compression and a 8v head make for utterly mundane experience when off boost. The lack of ABS (ours is a 1985 car) and the st brakes (unless you bag a Turbo S) - we fitted rebuilt 928GT calipers at the front. Not much else. The 944T was homologated by Porsche, and is eligible for things like the Youngtimer. In years to come, it will only become more sought after.
Why aren't we at the front of the pack in CSCC? Err, talent deficiency, lack of seat time and last but not least teething problems with the brakes - a booster went boom at Snetterton, original early Turbo front calipers seized at Brands at Race 1 and then ultimately the headgasket blew up.
Hopefully this time we will make our Turdo run better and actually do it justice....
http://www.augmentautomotive.co.uk/944-turbo-race-...
Cheburator mk2 said:
Things we hate - the engine is frankly st. 8:1 compression and a 8v head make for utterly mundane experience when off boost.
Not having a pop at you fella but how many 30 year old turbo cars are great off boost, you knew that already surely ? Complaining "the engine is frankly st. 8:1 compression and a 8v head make for utterly mundane experience when off boost. t" is pointless. If you were allowed to stroke it to 2.8 or bore/stroke to 3.0 maybe you wouldn't be such a 928 fan boy 
.Cheburator mk2 said:
We run one in CSCC until it went thru its headgasket at Brands earlier this year...
Ours runs a K26/K27 hybrid, different throttle body, steel dry liners, Woessner pistons, Lindsay racing dual port waste gate, ported head, 800cc injectors, 3bar fpr, Bosch 044 pump and a 3" exhaust.
We also went with Augment. The system is brilliant, Tom has been very helpful, however his guy who mapped it was frankly rubbish, which ultimately led to the blown gasket. Anyhow, she is all buttoned up with a new Cometic and ready for a proper mapping session at Torque Developments.
Things we love - ours has the biggest, baddest Custom Cages installed. As a matter of fact, the whole of the UK steel production in 2010 was used for the pipes. It still has steel panels, yet it comes at 1220kg with the driver. The chassis is astounding, especially for a car developed in the 1970s. It is cheap to run and in the right hands - Mark Koeberle won the Future Classics as a novice in 2010 - very fast.
Things we hate - the engine is frankly st. 8:1 compression and a 8v head make for utterly mundane experience when off boost. The lack of ABS (ours is a 1985 car) and the st brakes (unless you bag a Turbo S) - we fitted rebuilt 928GT calipers at the front. Not much else.
The 944T was homologated by Porsche, and is eligible for things like the Youngtimer. In years to come, it will only become more sought after.
Why aren't we at the front of the pack in CSCC? Err, talent deficiency, lack of seat time and last but not least teething problems with the brakes - a booster went boom at Snetterton, original early Turbo front calipers seized at Brands at Race 1 and then ultimately the headgasket blew up.
Hopefully this time we will make our Turdo run better and actually do it justice....
http://www.augmentautomotive.co.uk/944-turbo-race-...
That's useful info, thanks. Mine is also an early offset car so am too stuck with naff brakes, although I'd sooner do without ABS so that doesn't bother me. Finding spare wheels is a huge PITA though! I'm going to fully duct the front brakes so I'm hoping this will help keep them usable for the full 40mins.Ours runs a K26/K27 hybrid, different throttle body, steel dry liners, Woessner pistons, Lindsay racing dual port waste gate, ported head, 800cc injectors, 3bar fpr, Bosch 044 pump and a 3" exhaust.
We also went with Augment. The system is brilliant, Tom has been very helpful, however his guy who mapped it was frankly rubbish, which ultimately led to the blown gasket. Anyhow, she is all buttoned up with a new Cometic and ready for a proper mapping session at Torque Developments.
Things we love - ours has the biggest, baddest Custom Cages installed. As a matter of fact, the whole of the UK steel production in 2010 was used for the pipes. It still has steel panels, yet it comes at 1220kg with the driver. The chassis is astounding, especially for a car developed in the 1970s. It is cheap to run and in the right hands - Mark Koeberle won the Future Classics as a novice in 2010 - very fast.
Things we hate - the engine is frankly s
t. 8:1 compression and a 8v head make for utterly mundane experience when off boost. The lack of ABS (ours is a 1985 car) and the st brakes (unless you bag a Turbo S) - we fitted rebuilt 928GT calipers at the front. Not much else. The 944T was homologated by Porsche, and is eligible for things like the Youngtimer. In years to come, it will only become more sought after.
Why aren't we at the front of the pack in CSCC? Err, talent deficiency, lack of seat time and last but not least teething problems with the brakes - a booster went boom at Snetterton, original early Turbo front calipers seized at Brands at Race 1 and then ultimately the headgasket blew up.
Hopefully this time we will make our Turdo run better and actually do it justice....
http://www.augmentautomotive.co.uk/944-turbo-race-...
I was at the Brands round too, although I was racing in TinTops on the Sunday so missed most of the racing on Saturday which is probably why I didn't clock your 951...
That's useful feedback on Augment, when I get round to that I plan on using Wayne Scofield for mapping at Ninemeister as they're only an hour up the road and he work wonders with my Pug 106 Rallye hillclimb car.
Having already driven mine on track a fair bit already (including tight sprint courses) I wouldn't call the engine's s
t personally, but you do have to manage the boost; I'm not much of a left foot braker but a bootful well before the apex usually does the trick. Although on tighter courses you need to be quick with your right foot to regulate the torque! Going AFM-less and possibly an S2 final drive will help with this though... That's a good weight though, does the shell still have all its underseal?
The only 944 that Porsche homologated was the 220 turbo and in years to come that will be a very effective pre 1986 historic racer.
The later 944T with the 928 calipers has no issues stopping, even on track.
The off boost issues are well known, for cars of that era. it's why early turbo race and rally car drivers perfected left foot braking! But I'm not a driving God!
My comment about modern engine management and a Hartech or JMG build (including their stroker engines, which I didn't state but meant to) was specifically aimed at mitigating the off boost issues and should be a real weapon if anyone went down that route.
I'd love to race a 951 - to me it has the potential to be the most ideal race car; great handling and balance, and a powerful engine - but I can't afford to develop one, or the potential bills if something goes wrong. Sadly.
The later 944T with the 928 calipers has no issues stopping, even on track.
The off boost issues are well known, for cars of that era. it's why early turbo race and rally car drivers perfected left foot braking! But I'm not a driving God!
My comment about modern engine management and a Hartech or JMG build (including their stroker engines, which I didn't state but meant to) was specifically aimed at mitigating the off boost issues and should be a real weapon if anyone went down that route.
I'd love to race a 951 - to me it has the potential to be the most ideal race car; great handling and balance, and a powerful engine - but I can't afford to develop one, or the potential bills if something goes wrong. Sadly.
I use an Augment ecu in my 924S and To. Has always been very helpful.
Wayne Schofield is a mapping genius but I think he has moved premises now and is difficult to get hold of. Wayne is the reason why the 944T got banned from the PCGB Club championship - he was far cleverer than they were and they couldn't control him or the cars, whilst he insisted that he was complying with the letter of the regs!!
Wayne Schofield is a mapping genius but I think he has moved premises now and is difficult to get hold of. Wayne is the reason why the 944T got banned from the PCGB Club championship - he was far cleverer than they were and they couldn't control him or the cars, whilst he insisted that he was complying with the letter of the regs!!
andy97 said:
Wayne Schofield is a mapping genius but I think he has moved premises now and is difficult to get hold of. Wayne is the reason why the 944T got banned from the PCGB Club championship - he was far cleverer than they were and they couldn't control him or the cars, whilst he insisted that he was complying with the letter of the regs!!
It's only cheating if you get caught...To answer your criticism about my opinion that the 944 Turbo engine lacks ...
Look at my garage - our 944 is the only turbocharged car. Having become used to the razor sharp response provided by ///M-Powered engines, as well as the race 928 and a GT3, the tractor-like 944T is not going to be inspiring. And you were all right - it does require a totally different driving style. In the brief period that we have had it, flooring it as soon as we are off the brakes and turning in has worked.
We run a MAP sensor. I cannot comment on what the engine really is like because although the Augment product is brilliant, as I said the guy who mapped it - not Tom I must stress - did an atrocious job
The brakes - your original 4-pots will work, but the caliper pistons on ours were so corroded, I elected to upgrade to front 928GT freshly rebuilt calipers - pistons, fluid seals, dust seals and backing plates - that I had sitting on a shelf in the garage. How we did it - we machined the hub radially to accept the 928S4 disc. From memory you only need to take off 2mm from the overall diameter. Then the S4 disc fits beautifully OVER the original hub. The adaptor brackets that Promax sells work beautifully, you just need to swap them from left to right. Finally, we put in longer studs - we needed 5mm spacers to clear the teledial 16" wheels that we have.
As to being expensive to run - it is not. It is positively cheap and cheerful compared to an E30 M3 of the era or a 911. Plan for me is to get used to it with the engine running well and then perhaps swap the GAZ shocks for KW 2-way competition and then go big game hunting. Also on the list over winter - bin the awful Powerflex and fit proper rose-joints everywhere.
P.S. Weight - lexan windows, gutted wiring harness, gutted dash - no heater matrix, no power steering, cut out inner door skins, smaller battery, no splash guards, no bumpers, Carrera GT front lights conversion, most of the underseal has been scraped off too. Can lose a lot more - plastic wings, doors, bonnet.
Look at my garage - our 944 is the only turbocharged car. Having become used to the razor sharp response provided by ///M-Powered engines, as well as the race 928 and a GT3, the tractor-like 944T is not going to be inspiring. And you were all right - it does require a totally different driving style. In the brief period that we have had it, flooring it as soon as we are off the brakes and turning in has worked.
We run a MAP sensor. I cannot comment on what the engine really is like because although the Augment product is brilliant, as I said the guy who mapped it - not Tom I must stress - did an atrocious job
The brakes - your original 4-pots will work, but the caliper pistons on ours were so corroded, I elected to upgrade to front 928GT freshly rebuilt calipers - pistons, fluid seals, dust seals and backing plates - that I had sitting on a shelf in the garage. How we did it - we machined the hub radially to accept the 928S4 disc. From memory you only need to take off 2mm from the overall diameter. Then the S4 disc fits beautifully OVER the original hub. The adaptor brackets that Promax sells work beautifully, you just need to swap them from left to right. Finally, we put in longer studs - we needed 5mm spacers to clear the teledial 16" wheels that we have.
As to being expensive to run - it is not. It is positively cheap and cheerful compared to an E30 M3 of the era or a 911. Plan for me is to get used to it with the engine running well and then perhaps swap the GAZ shocks for KW 2-way competition and then go big game hunting. Also on the list over winter - bin the awful Powerflex and fit proper rose-joints everywhere.
P.S. Weight - lexan windows, gutted wiring harness, gutted dash - no heater matrix, no power steering, cut out inner door skins, smaller battery, no splash guards, no bumpers, Carrera GT front lights conversion, most of the underseal has been scraped off too. Can lose a lot more - plastic wings, doors, bonnet.
blade7 said:
andy97 said:
Wayne Schofield is a mapping genius but I think he has moved premises now and is difficult to get hold of. Wayne is the reason why the 944T got banned from the PCGB Club championship - he was far cleverer than they were and they couldn't control him or the cars, whilst he insisted that he was complying with the letter of the regs!!
It's only cheating if you get caught...The fact was there was another map activated when the front wheels turned (shades of VW, perhaps)!
Cheburator mk2 said:
I saw your car when I was at Toms he had to move it to get mine on the ramp, sounded and looked greatandy97 said:
I use an Augment ecu in my 924S and To. Has always been very helpful.
Wayne Schofield is a mapping genius but I think he has moved premises now and is difficult to get hold of. Wayne is the reason why the 944T got banned from the PCGB Club championship - he was far cleverer than they were and they couldn't control him or the cars, whilst he insisted that he was complying with the letter of the regs!!
That's bWayne Schofield is a mapping genius but I think he has moved premises now and is difficult to get hold of. Wayne is the reason why the 944T got banned from the PCGB Club championship - he was far cleverer than they were and they couldn't control him or the cars, whilst he insisted that he was complying with the letter of the regs!!
ks, we would leave my car in the same tune from race to race and the "sealed" recorder boxes would read different boost settings, I finally had enough of being accused of cheating and piggy backed two of PCGB' s boxes, and they both gave very different readings.......I got all my points back that had been docked.Once you have bought a dona car, the build costs are the same no matter which model, if done properly.
andy97 said:
blade7 said:
andy97 said:
Wayne Schofield is a mapping genius but I think he has moved premises now and is difficult to get hold of. Wayne is the reason why the 944T got banned from the PCGB Club championship - he was far cleverer than they were and they couldn't control him or the cars, whilst he insisted that he was complying with the letter of the regs!!
It's only cheating if you get caught...The fact was there was another map activated when the front wheels turned (shades of VW, perhaps)!
Genius!Wonder if anyone involved ended up working at VW?!
andy97 said:
Wayne maintains he wasnt cheating.
The fact was there was another map activated when the front wheels turned (shades of VW, perhaps)!
I've read that before, not exactly within the spirit of the rules though was it ? Still, Adrian Newey was a master of finding loop holes in the F1 rulebook, allegedly.The fact was there was another map activated when the front wheels turned (shades of VW, perhaps)!
andy97 said:
Wayne maintains he wasnt cheating. The rules stated that the car had to give 250 bhp + or - 5% (if memory serves) on Bob Watson's rolling road. They did! And were tested numerous times.
The fact was there was another map activated when the front wheels turned (shades of VW, perhaps)!
Now your just getting stupid.The fact was there was another map activated when the front wheels turned (shades of VW, perhaps)!
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