Discussion
I've got a plan for the old 944 and as this part of the forum is a bit dead thought I'd keep a bit of a journal here.
This is my 1981 Porsche 944. It's the first RHD made and at present is prepared for historic rallying. It's a fantastic little car; light, fast, reliable, well made etc.
The current problem is that it's the only fun classic I own and it's an incredibly hostile environment for anything but balls out rallying. In addition I've also now started getting into track racing as well as rallying so I want something I can enjoy on the track, on the road and on the gravel - not an easy task really. It needs to remain road registered to qualify for some of the MSA road rallies I do.
The car is totally stripped inside, even the glue was removed. Lexan windows, roof skin stripped back to nothing, half cage, Cobra carbon buckets, OMP harnesses, Momo Corse steering wheel, Brantz rally tripmeter and stopwatches. This means it is very light but also very noisy - wind and tyre noise, gearbox, exhaust, you hear it all - a real assault on the senses.
I want to use the car for a number of things - events wise the Tour Auto (France) and Tour Britannia (UK) both stand out - they include a mix of track racing, closed stage rallying and road rallying.
The plan is to do a bit of what I'm calling 'RSRing' on it. The plan is:
1) Tidy up the wiring, relocate Brantz rally kit to a mount in the glovebox, give a more stock appearance to dash area.
2) Trim the transmission tunnel with a lightweight sound deadning and cover with a light open-weave carpet a la Singer.
3) The same to the boot/rear deck to try and cut down on NVR and boominess.
4) Upgrade front springs to give a 1.5-2'' drop, re-index rear torsion bars to match so there is zero rake. Keep the new Bilstein B6 dampers already on.
5) Replace both front wings with composite copies - the originals have taken a real beating to date and I could do with evening up the balance after all the weight has come out of the back with the strip.
6) 2 wheel sets: winter/rally set (already have these - 15'' Cookie Cutters in gold with Yoko W.Drive tyres). I've just bought the others - a set of 15'' Teledials which I'll run 205/50/15 888s on once they've been reconditioned and finished in the same gold as the Cookie Cutters.
7) Reinstall the normal 3 point seatbelts - these will be removed for racing and rallying but will encourage me to use it more I think.
The changes to the suspension will be key. In it's current form it is extremely lively on track with a centre of gravity way too high. However, clearance issues still have to be managed with the rallying part. Front springs with a small drop but much stiffer rebound rates should do the trick along with the torsion bar changes. One other alternative is to change it to fully adjustable coilovers front and back but that is pretty expensive and I'd not have huge faith in them being able to take the kind of grief I can throw at the Bilsteins.
That's about it for now I think - lots to crack on with including some remedial engine work. The car is blowing a little smoke on full throttle when very hot. I've managed to pick up a rare OEM oil catch can so will fit that and change the oil to a slightly heavier grade than the 10w40 Petronas fully synthetic that I've been using up until now.
Will keep this thread updated as things start happening. As I've been writing this I've had a message to say the Teledials have arrived so need to get those over to Magic Michael for blasting asap.
This is my 1981 Porsche 944. It's the first RHD made and at present is prepared for historic rallying. It's a fantastic little car; light, fast, reliable, well made etc.
The current problem is that it's the only fun classic I own and it's an incredibly hostile environment for anything but balls out rallying. In addition I've also now started getting into track racing as well as rallying so I want something I can enjoy on the track, on the road and on the gravel - not an easy task really. It needs to remain road registered to qualify for some of the MSA road rallies I do.
The car is totally stripped inside, even the glue was removed. Lexan windows, roof skin stripped back to nothing, half cage, Cobra carbon buckets, OMP harnesses, Momo Corse steering wheel, Brantz rally tripmeter and stopwatches. This means it is very light but also very noisy - wind and tyre noise, gearbox, exhaust, you hear it all - a real assault on the senses.
I want to use the car for a number of things - events wise the Tour Auto (France) and Tour Britannia (UK) both stand out - they include a mix of track racing, closed stage rallying and road rallying.
The plan is to do a bit of what I'm calling 'RSRing' on it. The plan is:
1) Tidy up the wiring, relocate Brantz rally kit to a mount in the glovebox, give a more stock appearance to dash area.
2) Trim the transmission tunnel with a lightweight sound deadning and cover with a light open-weave carpet a la Singer.
3) The same to the boot/rear deck to try and cut down on NVR and boominess.
4) Upgrade front springs to give a 1.5-2'' drop, re-index rear torsion bars to match so there is zero rake. Keep the new Bilstein B6 dampers already on.
5) Replace both front wings with composite copies - the originals have taken a real beating to date and I could do with evening up the balance after all the weight has come out of the back with the strip.
6) 2 wheel sets: winter/rally set (already have these - 15'' Cookie Cutters in gold with Yoko W.Drive tyres). I've just bought the others - a set of 15'' Teledials which I'll run 205/50/15 888s on once they've been reconditioned and finished in the same gold as the Cookie Cutters.
7) Reinstall the normal 3 point seatbelts - these will be removed for racing and rallying but will encourage me to use it more I think.
The changes to the suspension will be key. In it's current form it is extremely lively on track with a centre of gravity way too high. However, clearance issues still have to be managed with the rallying part. Front springs with a small drop but much stiffer rebound rates should do the trick along with the torsion bar changes. One other alternative is to change it to fully adjustable coilovers front and back but that is pretty expensive and I'd not have huge faith in them being able to take the kind of grief I can throw at the Bilsteins.
That's about it for now I think - lots to crack on with including some remedial engine work. The car is blowing a little smoke on full throttle when very hot. I've managed to pick up a rare OEM oil catch can so will fit that and change the oil to a slightly heavier grade than the 10w40 Petronas fully synthetic that I've been using up until now.
Will keep this thread updated as things start happening. As I've been writing this I've had a message to say the Teledials have arrived so need to get those over to Magic Michael for blasting asap.
Seems a tough job to prep the suspension for track and gravel - If you lower it too far will you run out of travel on the dampers? Might need shorter rods in the dampers.
I know it sounds expensive, but losing the torsion bars & having 2 sets of dampers/springs might work best in the long run.
Have you visited Tom at Augment for cam & ECU? (more money
)
I know it sounds expensive, but losing the torsion bars & having 2 sets of dampers/springs might work best in the long run.
Have you visited Tom at Augment for cam & ECU? (more money
)Precisely what Michael (who looks after the car) said re the suspension. However, gravel will be by far the lowest priority for the kind of events I'm interested in. Realistically the ideal mix will be 50% track, 20% road, 20% road rallying, 10% gravel.
It'll be impossible to be perfect over all disciplines but for the sake of being able to use 100% throttle for track and road rallying in return for 75% throttle on gravel seems sensible.
Also - cash at a premium at the moment
It'll be impossible to be perfect over all disciplines but for the sake of being able to use 100% throttle for track and road rallying in return for 75% throttle on gravel seems sensible.
Also - cash at a premium at the moment
I bottomed out my S2 when it was road car with 1" lowered track day suspension. I still think this is what caused the hairline crack in the sump we found when we pulled the car apart to build it into a full on race car. The sump sits very low in the 944 so this would always be my concern area with what you guys are doing.
On the wings, the fibreglass ones made by ClubAutoSport in Birmingham and supplied/fitted to many race cars by outfits such as EMC are very thick and tough, much more than would be needed for a circuit racing car but they are probably ideal for you. Minor damage can be cured by putting them back in the mould. They are also for the 8v 944, most people wouldn't notice but the line where the wing meets the front bumper is different on 8v 944s to S2s and turbos, but the wings and front bumper they make which has the S2/turbo look use the line as on the 8v 944. This is just a roundabout way of saying they are a bolt on for you but for those of us with S2/turbo cars we have to fit the whole lot as a package and use either the headlight delete badge panel or an 8v badge panel (the curve of the front bumper is also different where it meets the badge panel).
You need a full cage, half cages are a dangerous folly in these cars. Kevin Eacock at EMC Motorsport in Birmingham will explain chapter and verse why based on seeing more crashed 944/968s than most people have had hot dinners.
On the wings, the fibreglass ones made by ClubAutoSport in Birmingham and supplied/fitted to many race cars by outfits such as EMC are very thick and tough, much more than would be needed for a circuit racing car but they are probably ideal for you. Minor damage can be cured by putting them back in the mould. They are also for the 8v 944, most people wouldn't notice but the line where the wing meets the front bumper is different on 8v 944s to S2s and turbos, but the wings and front bumper they make which has the S2/turbo look use the line as on the 8v 944. This is just a roundabout way of saying they are a bolt on for you but for those of us with S2/turbo cars we have to fit the whole lot as a package and use either the headlight delete badge panel or an 8v badge panel (the curve of the front bumper is also different where it meets the badge panel).
You need a full cage, half cages are a dangerous folly in these cars. Kevin Eacock at EMC Motorsport in Birmingham will explain chapter and verse why based on seeing more crashed 944/968s than most people have had hot dinners.
I'd wholeheartedly agree about a full cage (mandatory anyway for racing).
Here's why:
http://youtu.be/Dvy5YvpZkEs
That was me, the car was totalled but I was fine (albeit a bit sore for a couple of days), nothing encroached on the cabin space at all (car built by Ian Gorham at County Classics).
Here's why:
http://youtu.be/Dvy5YvpZkEs
That was me, the car was totalled but I was fine (albeit a bit sore for a couple of days), nothing encroached on the cabin space at all (car built by Ian Gorham at County Classics).
NJH said:
You need a full cage, half cages are a dangerous folly in these cars. Kevin Eacock at EMC Motorsport in Birmingham will explain chapter and verse why based on seeing more crashed 944/968s than most people have had hot dinners.
Interested to read this as I plan a few track days in 2015 and wanted to take my car to EMC for some engine work and a big old service. In addition, having recently bought a couple of Profi SPGs I wanted to get a half cage installed in the coming months. This is a car that'll do 3-4k a year, mostly on the road but surely a half cage in these circumstances is better than no cage or a harness bar? A full cage would be real headache in a road car would it not? (And not an option I'd go for although I entirely understand the requirement in a race car or serious track car). I'll phone them and hear what they say.Not really as the bolt in cages have removable door bars and even if one went for a full weld in cage you don't have to fit the front upper part of the X in the door. There was a guy a few years back that came out on some of the PCGB forum 944 organised track days that had done exactly this. He rebuilt the entire car himself the thing was a work of art really, all the cage blended in and covered like Ruf do to their cars, at the front he left out the short section of bar in the X that goes up towards the dash (the cage was one of the Safety Devices cages fitted by EMC but he left those two short bits of the X off). This is the bit in particular that makes it really difficult getting in and out of the car. I don't know what happened to him but his car was the nicest build I have ever seen along these lines by a very wide margin.
If you roll the car with a half cage unless you are very tall in the leg and sit a long way back and low in the car it is likely you will break your neck as the front of the roof collapses. In my race car I am only a couple of inches or so behind the header bar behind the windscreen so without the full cage it wouldn't take the roof to flatten off much before pushing down on my head. Get to sit in a 944/968 race car and you will see what I mean.
If you roll the car with a half cage unless you are very tall in the leg and sit a long way back and low in the car it is likely you will break your neck as the front of the roof collapses. In my race car I am only a couple of inches or so behind the header bar behind the windscreen so without the full cage it wouldn't take the roof to flatten off much before pushing down on my head. Get to sit in a 944/968 race car and you will see what I mean.
Neil it's a tricky balance in a roadgoing track car - if you're not going to wear a helmet all the time, then the cage is very close to your head..
also depends on whether you use a 3 point belt or harness I would have thought.
For a trailered, track only car, then fine. For a roadgoing track car like mine, I'm happy to stick with decent seats, no cage and a 3 point belt.
also depends on whether you use a 3 point belt or harness I would have thought.
For a trailered, track only car, then fine. For a roadgoing track car like mine, I'm happy to stick with decent seats, no cage and a 3 point belt.
Fair point, I used to do the same years ago but really wanted the security of a cage. Once one goes down that route though there is no point in doing it all by half measures.
On the subject of cages and road driving I used mine a lot on the road back in 2010/11 and will be making it road legal again in the spring, I already have FIA fireproof padding on the header bar and upright leg by the dash (MSA scrut asked for this bit as apparently peoples legs/ankles have been hurt in crashes). I don't see cages in a road car as an issue as long as the appropriate padding is in place which one should have anyway for the racing, egress is always a pain though and cabin noise really requires some custom carpeting but I have seen a couple of cars up at EMC where the owners have had that done.
On the subject of cages and road driving I used mine a lot on the road back in 2010/11 and will be making it road legal again in the spring, I already have FIA fireproof padding on the header bar and upright leg by the dash (MSA scrut asked for this bit as apparently peoples legs/ankles have been hurt in crashes). I don't see cages in a road car as an issue as long as the appropriate padding is in place which one should have anyway for the racing, egress is always a pain though and cabin noise really requires some custom carpeting but I have seen a couple of cars up at EMC where the owners have had that done.
The FIA padding is pretty hard - fine for helmets I guess
I used this stuff on another car I had
https://www.rollbarpadding.com/product/id-38
I used this stuff on another car I had
https://www.rollbarpadding.com/product/id-38
Thanks for all the comments, gents.
Specifically re the cage: this is a tricky one. The reason I went for a half cage rather than full was to do with ease of getting in and out. As many people here know I do a lot of work with Mission Motorsport and my MM navigator would struggle with a full cage.
That said you really can't argue with the overall safety aspects. Fortunately the way the car/seats is set up means it isn't quite the deathtrap it could be. The seats are very low and very far back (I'm massive) - both driver and navigator's heads are directly underneath or very slightly behind the roof bar.
All that said if the car is to be entered into the events with race elements it isn't a choice. The car has a current MSA/FIA technical passport for historic road rallying (cage choice open) but I'll need to change that to do Tour Auto for example.
The 'new' race wheels arrived the other day. These will go off to Michael (Talkwrench above, give him a call if you need any work doing!) for blasting and finishing in the same gold as the ATS Cookie Cutters in some of the pics above. 205/50/15 R888 tyres to go on.
I've also got the new discs and pads to go on, plus the speedo cable needs replacing.
Specifically re the cage: this is a tricky one. The reason I went for a half cage rather than full was to do with ease of getting in and out. As many people here know I do a lot of work with Mission Motorsport and my MM navigator would struggle with a full cage.
That said you really can't argue with the overall safety aspects. Fortunately the way the car/seats is set up means it isn't quite the deathtrap it could be. The seats are very low and very far back (I'm massive) - both driver and navigator's heads are directly underneath or very slightly behind the roof bar.
All that said if the car is to be entered into the events with race elements it isn't a choice. The car has a current MSA/FIA technical passport for historic road rallying (cage choice open) but I'll need to change that to do Tour Auto for example.
The 'new' race wheels arrived the other day. These will go off to Michael (Talkwrench above, give him a call if you need any work doing!) for blasting and finishing in the same gold as the ATS Cookie Cutters in some of the pics above. 205/50/15 R888 tyres to go on.
I've also got the new discs and pads to go on, plus the speedo cable needs replacing.
Come on Ben, you know Im right. Look at the part number. Then look at the part number for the 1987 wheels.
Im at work so cant waffle about my favourite topic as much as Id like, but Id suggest refitting the rear squab and using series two (or better still: late 924s - later typre carpet but a one piece front still) carpet. Itll cut out much of the noise.
Im at work so cant waffle about my favourite topic as much as Id like, but Id suggest refitting the rear squab and using series two (or better still: late 924s - later typre carpet but a one piece front still) carpet. Itll cut out much of the noise.
Have you considered it might be cheaper in the long run to have two 944's?
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C549712
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C549712
edh said:
Have you considered it might be cheaper in the long run to have two 944's?
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C549712
The thought has occurred to me!http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C549712
However, there just aren't many (possibly any) 1981 manufactured cars about. The reason I bought mine is that it is a November 1981 build, that means it can be a true Class 3 historic rally car.
There is a new Class 4 (build date from Jan 1 1982 to Dec 31 1985) but Class 4 cars can only win their own class, not overall honours.
If I did buy another it would have to be a LHD
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