981 GT4 to Spyder?

[bosshog]

Hi all,

I've had my GT4 for over three years now and have done around 18,000 miles in that time purely on fun drives and trips. However, last September I got a Turbo S 991.1, which I have found to be surprisingly good steer in the corners with the rear-wheel steer and suspension. I also own an original Elise S1 which I love driving as well. I'm finding that the GT4 doesn't really have a place so much in the garage now outside of a couple of Euro trips each year, which the Turbo S could easily do. I tend to use the Elise for sunny early morning Sunday drives locally.

I've been considering selling the GT4 and the Elise and replacing it with a Spyder or possibly a Ferrari 360 Spyder. I'm not so keen on the Ferrari running costs and maintenance compared to the Porsche. One of the great aspects of the GT4 (aside from the steering aspect) is the soundtrack and manual box. So the 981 Spyder really appeals, but for my extensive reading of various threads here and videos, it kind of sits between say a Boxster GTS and GT4 and isn't really the same level of enjoyment in terms of how it goes around corners and behaves soundtrack aside. The 718 Spyder is, of course, a GT4 without the top, essentially. However, it loses the soundtrack which for a weekend car is a really important aspect for me, especially in these days of EV and particulate filters. I realise that very expensive third-party exhausts are available for the 718, but then outside of warranty. I still don't think they sound as good as the 981 GT4.

I'm really torn in terms of direction here, and just wondering if anyone has owned both or all and could comment on this. My use case is really for weekend fun and Euro trips but primarily weekend fun. The roof aspect is a non-issue for me. I did try a 718 Spyder about 18 months ago, and my initial impression was the steering wasn't as good as the 981 GT4 or less raw and more removed from what was happening on. However, it was a very short drive and I didn't really get under the car in terms of ability. The Elise is great aside from the soundtrack and lack of airbag/traction control!

My weekend drives are typically done at 6am onwards are quite hard and fast, not cruising around the countryside type usage.

Of course I'd love to try both, but this is extremely difficult as there were very few 981s/Spyders for sale and the closest OPC one is across the other side of the country.

There may be other cars here that I'm missing, so any suggestions are very welcome; manual , great soundtrack and great handling with open top driving is what I'm after. Budget 10K->75K

Edited by bosshog on Tuesday 13th May 18:23

[Billy_Whizzzz]

I too thought of a 360 but - too old, not useable enough and, I would argue, dynamically inferior. I’ve had my 981 Spyder for 5 years and adore it. It is literally the only car I’d change nothing on. I certainly have never wished it was harder edged like the GT4, and every journey still feels like an event. Definitely get one with buckets. Mine has been cheap to run, service and has been totally reliable apart from dynamic engine mounts.

[PGNSagaris]

I’d definitely go 981 Spyder and get a fast road geo done too.

[Mr R]

As a previous 981 and 718 Spyder owner, it is a difficult choice. No doubt about it that the noise of the 981 makes it more dramatic but equally no denying that the engine feels flat at the top end compared to the 718.

If I was to go back to either I think it would be 718 but I would go PDK instead of manual. Whilst the shift mechanism itself is brilliant, I did find the ratios frustrating which in turn almost makes the shift mechanism redundant as you can pretty much live in 2nd and 3rd.

Just to throw a spanner in your thinking, the 991.1 GT3 that I had in-between the Spyders was on a different level to both in terms of theatre and involvement...

[jay2000]

Have you tried the Spyder RS?

[Billy_Whizzzz]

Never had a problem with ratios or indeed supposed ‘flat spot’ in my Spyder

[bosshog]

Billy_Whizzzz said:

Never had a problem with ratios or indeed supposed ‘flat spot’ in my Spyder

I agree, it’s a complete non-issue for me

[Mr R]

Just to clarify, I wasn't intending to imply that there is a 'flat spot' and I also agree that the ratios in the 981 are fine with the characteristics of the 981 engine, which overall is a great package.

What I was trying to express was in a direct comparison between 981 and 718, the motor in the 718 has a lot more urgency and energy at the very top end which I prefer, the problem is that you don't get to experience it as often as it deserves due to the long ratios.

As I say, I don't think this is an issue in the 981 as the power curve feels a lot more linear and there is no need to chase the red line in the same way as the 718. However for me, and everyone's different, I would still opt for the 718, just.

Clearly the Spyder RS would be the ultimate experience, but it wants to be given the near 60k price gap...

Hope that helps clarify

[bigmowley]

Just to add my 2ps worth. I agree that the 718 Spyder is the way to go as the powertrain is much better than the 981 lump. I always compare the driving the 981 3.8L to a high performance diesel lots of torque but nothing much at the top end. I have owned multiple versions both GT4 and Spyder for me the 718 PDK Spyder is the best of the bunch and an truly lovely car to own. One of the best cars Porsche have ever made.

Reading the OP's original post immediately made me think SRS sounded like the one assuming no budget constraints obvs. The Spyder is a brilliant all round car but might lack that bit of theatre for the ultimate weekend only car.

Just too add the steering feel is quite sensitive to suspension set up. The 718 set up with a good fast road geo is as good as any 981 for steering feel. Worth reminding on a short test drive.

Edited by bigmowley on Wednesday 14th May 10:51

[Shaoxter]

Billy_Whizzzz said:

I too thought of a 360 but - too old, not useable enough and, I would argue, dynamically inferior.

The 360 is surprisingly useable - it's not that wide relative to modern sports cars, rides well and has great ground clearance. On a track it obviously won't be anywhere near a 10-15 year newer Porsche GT car but put some modern rubber on, set it up properly, and on a nice flowing bit of road it's very enjoyable indeed.

It's chalk and cheese compared to the 981/718/991s being mentioned here though, so it really depends what you're after. FWIW I went from 991.1 GT3 to 360 coupe + 981 Boxster S because:
a) I wanted to scratch that Ferrari itch
b) I have loads of speed bumps near me and a GT3 even with nose lift is woeful
c) Didn't like the prospect of binning an £80k car each time I tracked it so now the cheap(ish) Boxster takes on that responsibility

[bosshog]

Shaoxter said:

The 360 is surprisingly useable - it's not that wide relative to modern sports cars, rides well and has great ground clearance. On a track it obviously won't be anywhere near a 10-15 year newer Porsche GT car but put some modern rubber on, set it up properly, and on a nice flowing bit of road it's very enjoyable indeed.

It's chalk and cheese compared to the 981/718/991s being mentioned here though, so it really depends what you're after. FWIW I went from 991.1 GT3 to 360 coupe + 981 Boxster S because:
a) I wanted to scratch that Ferrari itch
b) I have loads of speed bumps near me and a GT3 even with nose lift is woeful
c) Didn't like the prospect of binning an £80k car each time I tracked it so now the cheap(ish) Boxster takes on that responsibility

How is the 360 dynamically on typical Uk B roads? Can you compare?
thanks!

[Quickmoose]

I've a mate who owned 981 GT4, let me drive it, I adored it...I had an S2000 at the time and really put value in open top driving...so when my time came to upgrade, whilst my budget allowed an entry 718, my choice felt obvious. I bought my 981 Spyder RPM technic who not only allowed a full test drive (the OPCs did not), but they denied my request for lightweight flywheel, and gearbox pinion/ratio upgrade, insisting I own the car as it was for a while to really know what I wanted. And despite reading everywhere about 2nd gear frustration, I've not felt it. At all, so have not had that done.
I also haven't bought into the EPS commentary, partly as I had come from an S2000.
The engine as you know has plenty of character and I really don't care that the GT department wasn't involved, they weren't involved in the 987 Spyder or Cayman R and they seem pretty well liked. The 981 Spyder appears to me to really focus on a good road set up as opposed to allowing track stuff...

For me the appeal of the 718 is in it's exterior design, the optional PDK and the chassis upgrades that will deal with track work better.
The appeal of the 981 is in it's vfm, limited numbers and OEM noise.

I've had mine approaching 3 years now, I'm not selling, but equally I've decided not to continue the OPC warranty. I do like to personalise and as such, it now has BMC filters and a FVD Brombacher ECU tune, and runs over 400BHP now, so circa 320/tonne.

Its a weekend car, keeping it my personal 'event car' and to that end 918 LWBs were essential....with a 15 degree riser at the front for a smidge more comfort...and an Apple Carplay upgrade for nav etc.

I'd definitely like to drive alll the other Spyders... but I have zero regrets with this...

[Billy_Whizzzz]

bigmowley said:

Just to add my 2ps worth. I agree that the 718 Spyder is the way to go as the powertrain is much better than the 981 lump. I always compare the driving the 981 3.8L to a high performance diesel lots of torque but nothing much at the top end. I have owned multiple versions both GT4 and Spyder for me the 718 PDK Spyder is the best of the bunch and an truly lovely car to own. One of the best cars Porsche have ever made.

Reading the OP's original post immediately made me think SRS sounded like the one assuming no budget constraints obvs. The Spyder is a brilliant all round car but might lack that bit of theatre for the ultimate weekend only car.

Just too add the steering feel is quite sensitive to suspension set up. The 718 set up with a good fast road geo is as good as any 981 for steering feel. Worth reminding on a short test drive.

Edited by bigmowley on Wednesday 14th May 10:51

Remember OP already is familiar with 981 GT4 and ‘diesel’ like engine and really he’s questioning front end and handling. (FWIW I’m thinking my 981 Spyder must have had an engine swapped as it is the least diesel-like power train imaginable! I daily a G31 530d and a Defender by comparison!)

[bosshog]

Yes I'm not worried at all about the performance aspect of the engine - just soundtrack and if it likes to be revved I suppose. My Elise has only 118bhp and I love chaising the redline on the roads.

What I'm most concered about with the 981 Spyder is really the handling in terms of how pointy the car feels (turn-in), steering feel of whats happening on the road surface, and how well it handles thinkings like mid corner bumps compared to the 981 GT4 / 718 GT platform

[Shaoxter]

bosshog said:

How is the 360 dynamically on typical Uk B roads? Can you compare?
thanks!

It's great, as long as your B roads are not too narrow. But get it to the Alps/Dolomites/Pyrenees/Ring etc and it will really feel at home. In Porsche terms I'd compare it to a 997 Carrera but mid engined with a stonking V8 - the ride is nice and compliant but has more roll and won't be as focused as a GT3/4. Turn in is sharp even with only 215 width fronts and it pivots very nicely as you would expect from a mid engined car. The steering feel is a bit disappointing though, I'd rate it slightly worse than the 9x1 EPAS.

It is very sensitive to tyres, tyre pressures and geo though (as is the case for most sports cars). My 360 feels like a totally different car form when I bought it. Ferrari owners do seem to like to keep their cars sitting around on 10 year old Pirellis.

[bigmowley]

bosshog said:

Yes I'm not worried at all about the performance aspect of the engine - just soundtrack and if it likes to be revved I suppose. My Elise has only 118bhp and I love chaising the redline on the roads.

What I'm most concered about with the 981 Spyder is really the handling in terms of how pointy the car feels (turn-in), steering feel of whats happening on the road surface, and how well it handles thinkings like mid corner bumps compared to the 981 GT4 / 718 GT platform

Funnily enough I’ve got an S1 Elise as well, a 111S in my case with quite a bit more than 118BHP . That car as you know completely defines steering feel; superb turn in, feedback, tactility you name it it’s got it. No Spyder is ever going to get close to the Elise in that department.
You really do need the 718 Spyder in my opinion. Unlike the 981 they come with the 718 GT4 chassis upgrades and more adjustability built in. You can achieve a pointy front end with a 718 but you do need quite an aggressive geo set up in my experience. Both of my Spyders were done by Matt at Fernsport and we used longer rear toe arms to get more rear camber with an acceptable rear toe setting. They were both very good on the road especially through fast roundabouts and the like with great turn in and just a hint of throttle induced oversteer to balance the car. I had one on Cup 2s and the other on PS4s. The PS4s were certainly a bit softer in the sidewall and slightly slower in the steering response but much better in the cold and wet. My Cup2 car could be a bit lairy in the wet.
I never had an issue with exhaust noise with the Spyders, I just did the very cheap grub screw in the vac pipe mod which leaves the exhaust valves open all the time and it was quite nice. It’s quite a deep growl which rises and falls with the revs and throttle opening exactly as it should without the exhaust flaps coming into play below 4000RPM or so.

[Billy_Whizzzz]

bigmowley said:

Just to add my 2ps worth. I agree that the 718 Spyder is the way to go as the powertrain is much better than the 981 lump. I always compare the driving the 981 3.8L to a high performance diesel lots of torque but nothing much at the top end. I have owned multiple versions both GT4 and Spyder for me the 718 PDK Spyder is the best of the bunch and an truly lovely car to own. One of the best cars Porsche have ever made.

Reading the OP's original post immediately made me think SRS sounded like the one assuming no budget constraints obvs. The Spyder is a brilliant all round car but might lack that bit of theatre for the ultimate weekend only car.

Just too add the steering feel is quite sensitive to suspension set up. The 718 set up with a good fast road geo is as good as any 981 for steering feel. Worth reminding on a short test drive.

Edited by bigmowley on Wednesday 14th May 10:51

Remember OP already is familiar with 981 GT4 and ‘diesel’ like engine and really he’s questioning front end and handling. (FWIW I’m thinking my 981 Spyder must have had an engine swapped as it is the least diesel-like power train imaginable! I daily a G31 530d and a Defender by comparison!)

[nicklambo]

bosshog said:

Hi all,

I've had my GT4 for over three years now and have done around 18,000 miles in that time purely on fun drives and trips. However, last September I got a Turbo S 991.1, which I have found to be surprisingly good steer in the corners with the rear-wheel steer and suspension. I also own an original Elise S1 which I love driving as well. I'm finding that the GT4 doesn't really have a place so much in the garage now outside of a couple of Euro trips each year, which the Turbo S could easily do. I tend to use the Elise for sunny early morning Sunday drives locally.

I've been considering selling the GT4 and the Elise and replacing it with a Spyder or possibly a Ferrari 360 Spyder. I'm not so keen on the Ferrari running costs and maintenance compared to the Porsche. One of the great aspects of the GT4 (aside from the steering aspect) is the soundtrack and manual box. So the 981 Spyder really appeals, but for my extensive reading of various threads here and videos, it kind of sits between say a Boxster GTS and GT4 and isn't really the same level of enjoyment in terms of how it goes around corners and behaves soundtrack aside. The 718 Spyder is, of course, a GT4 without the top, essentially. However, it loses the soundtrack which for a weekend car is a really important aspect for me, especially in these days of EV and particulate filters. I realise that very expensive third-party exhausts are available for the 718, but then outside of warranty. I still don't think they sound as good as the 981 GT4.

I'm really torn in terms of direction here, and just wondering if anyone has owned both or all and could comment on this. My use case is really for weekend fun and Euro trips but primarily weekend fun. The roof aspect is a non-issue for me. I did try a 718 Spyder about 18 months ago, and my initial impression was the steering wasn't as good as the 981 GT4 or less raw and more removed from what was happening on. However, it was a very short drive and I didn't really get under the car in terms of ability. The Elise is great aside from the soundtrack and lack of airbag/traction control!

My weekend drives are typically done at 6am onwards are quite hard and fast, not cruising around the countryside type usage.

Of course I'd love to try both, but this is extremely difficult as there were very few 981s/Spyders for sale and the closest OPC one is across the other side of the country.

There may be other cars here that I'm missing, so any suggestions are very welcome; manual , great soundtrack and great handling with open top driving is what I'm after. Budget 10K->75K

Edited by bosshog on Tuesday 13th May 18:23

Try a 987 Spyder, Hydraulic Steering, light with no particulate filters etc, built in small numbers and just perfect for British B roads.