Two New Michelins On The GTS Yesterday

[reddiesel]

12000 miles in seven months since I bought the GTS new from Porsche Wolverhampton and the rear tyres both suffering from slow punctures and ever decreasing Tread got replaced yesterday . Two small wood screws were the cause of the slow punctures , I don't suspect foul play as they happened months apart . £291.00 per tyre in Glasgow but they needed a couple of days to get them in stock so I ended back in Milton Keynes and a £305.00 per tyre cost . Apart from the abysmal finish on the wheels its been a great car that I enjoy using as a daily though I shall get rid at the end of the summer . Preparing for some adverse comments I have found the Cayman GTS 4.0 a more enjoyable drive than the previous 991 911 GTS , just that bit more raw and rewarding . I may try and grab a late GT4 as a replacement perhaps even to keep permanently . Will this 60 year old back stand the strain , that's the question .

[BAMoFo]

If you prefer a car that is a bit more raw a GT4 seems like a natural progression. I think that having cars like that can help to keep you young, but you could always buy a comfort spec GT4 if you have doubts. There are plenty of late models around because the carbon bucket seats weren't available for quite a while during the MY23 builds.

[Boy0]

12K is very good going on the rears. I only managed 8K on the Pirelli's on my CGTS 4.0 and that's driving sensibly most of the time.

[scrounger73]

I replaced both of the Pirellis on the 4.0 at 14500 miles but only because 1 had a screw right at the edge of the tread and both still had 4.5mm left on them. I've kept the good one....you just never know!

[reddiesel]

Were Pirellis the original fitment on your car Scrounger ?

[M11rph]

Mine came on Pirelli's (N1), and at 7800 miles they were 3.9mm front / 3.8mm rear. Front still felt good but the rear lack of traction exiting corners was becoming notable. So only about 60% of the available tread is useable.

I swapped to Michelin PS 4s as I was going to be doing some "Autobahn work" and a mini euro-tour. All new manufacture, less than 5 months old N0, but it is now an old tech and design tyre, amazing it is still so competitive frankly.

Tyre picture because threads, like books, are better with pictures ?



The Michelins really do numb the steering feel compared to the Pirelli's, but have more outright grip on the rear. If they maintain performance down to near 2mm then that makes them more cost effective.

Michelin: More grip, less feel, cheaper.
Pirelli: Better steering feel, "done" at half thread depth.

I'll see how the MIchelin's perform in the Spanish heat this year, they were good on the Autobahn and snowy crud in the Eifel Mountains.

If Michelin can get a bit more feel into their tyre then it would be an easy decision.

[jimbo761]

Traded the Pirelli N1s mine came with at the earliest opportunity, I found them to be an absolute liability in the wet.

Went Goodyear due to the wheel size but even these were a massive improvement as well as being much quieter. Will have to get some 20” hubs to try the Michelins since they don’t come in my wheel size.

[johnny senna]

M11rph said:

Mine came on Pirelli's (N1), and at 7800 miles they were 3.9mm front / 3.8mm rear. Front still felt good but the rear lack of traction exiting corners was becoming notable. So only about 60% of the available tread is useable.

I swapped to Michelin PS 4s as I was going to be doing some "Autobahn work" and a mini euro-tour. All new manufacture, less than 5 months old N0, but it is now an old tech and design tyre, amazing it is still so competitive frankly.

Tyre picture because threads, like books, are better with pictures ?



The Michelins really do numb the steering feel compared to the Pirelli's, but have more outright grip on the rear. If they maintain performance down to near 2mm then that makes them more cost effective.

Michelin: More grip, less feel, cheaper.
Pirelli: Better steering feel, "done" at half thread depth.

I'll see how the MIchelin's perform in the Spanish heat this year, they were good on the Autobahn and snowy crud in the Eifel Mountains.

If Michelin can get a bit more feel into their tyre then it would be an easy decision.

I agree the Michelins numb the steering. I’m going back to OEM Goodyears next time on my 992S.

[scrounger73]

reddiesel said:

Were Pirellis the original fitment on your car Scrounger ?

Yep. I do think that having the geo done at 2000 miles has helped with both tyre wear and handling. Fronts are still good at just over 5mm.

Edited by scrounger73 on Wednesday 12th June 15:40

[reddiesel]

scrounger73 said:

Yep. I do think that having the geo done at 2000 miles has helped with both tyre wear and handling. Fronts are still good at just over 5mm.

Edited by scrounger73 on Wednesday 12th June 15:40

I shall give a thought to having the Geo done . Next job next week is to get the PPF replaced on the Bonnet . I had something blow across from the other carriageway during the Storms earlier in the year . It left a very small mark in the paint which I shall have touched in with the Porsche Paintstick carefully blended in and the new PPF applied . The mark is barely 5mm so pointless repainting the whole Bonnet

[Ed.Neumann]

Not sure the Michelins get all the love still, not on these cars.

They ruin the sharp steering of these cars and are seriously dull.


I have the PS4s on mine, but even though I have 5mm left going to swap them for some for something better.

I get I will lose a bit of comfort, they will be a smidge louder, but this is not my daily and not what I want from the car.

[andygo]

What tyres are you considering to replace with?

[JasonSteel]

Ed.Neumann said:

Not sure the Michelins get all the love still, not on these cars.

They ruin the sharp steering of these cars and are seriously dull.


I have the PS4s on mine, but even though I have 5mm left going to swap them for some for something better.

I get I will lose a bit of comfort, they will be a smidge louder, but this is not my daily and not what I want from the car.

i went from Pirelli to Michelin and would never go back

what are you considering that might be better than the Michelins?

[jeebsy]

JasonSteel said:

i went from Pirelli to Michelin and would never go back

what are you considering that might be better than the Michelins?

The continental sport contact 7s seem to be getting some great reviews and my local tyre fitter says he's had great feedback from people who've put them on performance cars

[Ed.Neumann]

JasonSteel said:

Ed.Neumann said:

Not sure the Michelins get all the love still, not on these cars.

They ruin the sharp steering of these cars and are seriously dull.


I have the PS4s on mine, but even though I have 5mm left going to swap them for some for something better.

I get I will lose a bit of comfort, they will be a smidge louder, but this is not my daily and not what I want from the car.

i went from Pirelli to Michelin and would never go back

what are you considering that might be better than the Michelins?

Not Pirelli that's for sure!



The Cup 2's are much better than the PS4s, I ran them last summer, but still not the best steering feel, amazing overall grip though, but in all honesty, on the road I would never get to the point where I'm testing the grip levels of Cup 2's anyway.

The Bridgestone S-02 A are a good example of the other extreme, much sharper steering and razor sharp turn in, one of the most fun Porsche N rated tyres I have used, but no longer available. However, a bit noisy and obviously quite a bit firmer to get that steering feel.


But hearing very good reports on the Bridgetsone Potenza Sport, and from the Conti Sport Contact 7.

Both tyres have gone for steering response and feel at the cost of a bit of noise and comfort, the Bridgestone more so.
But I think they start with just under 6mm of tread, so fine if you're happy to swap every 6-8k or so, I get that is not for everyone. I only do 4-5k a year in the 911, so by the time they have worn out it has been long enough to have forgotten about the previous bill.


But will try one of those next as I do really miss the ultra sharp turn in that Michelins have lost on their recent models.

[andygo]

Not trying to teach you to suck eggs, but have you tried altering the geometry to try and get a sharper turn in etc.

[Ed.Neumann]

andygo said:

Not trying to teach you to suck eggs, but have you tried altering the geometry to try and get a sharper turn in etc.

Yeah, taught myself to do it using string. More so because my car is now at the age where something suspension wise is always being replaced and getting time to get it to an alignment place I trust is hard work, and also because I wanted to try loads of different geo variations.


I'm running mine with quite a lot of negative camber on the rear with a lot of toe in. Then on the front I have gone against the grain and ended up with minimal camber and zero toe in.

This has made it incredibly planted, and has made the steering feel a little more weighted and a bit sharper off centre. After swapping to Michelins, as I am a Michelin fan boy so it was a no brainer, and being gobsmacked at how numb the steering felt compared to the Bridgestones, I had the geo done 4 times before deciding I needed to learn how to do it myself.

I kept trying to give more negative camber up front, with a smidge of toe in, like -0.03, every time I took it to my alignment guys, that in my head would give me sharper steering. It was only when I started to play around I thought I would try less camber and some toe out. This shocked me as it actually sharpened up the steering and made it feel less twitchy, didn't chase the camber of th road every where, and made the whole car feel more planted, or rather more solid, less floaty up front when pressing on. However, the back end was a bit too lose for the road, more so when wet and cold. Hence then putting excessive toe in on the rear, with a bit more negative camber to calm that back end down a bit.

My mate went from N spec PS2 to the PS4s and he said the same thing, PS4s is quieter, more comfy, and he thinks more overall grip, but the steering is no where near as good. He has gone back to N rated PS2.

Maybe the N rated PS4s are better? But they don't do them in my sizes so I won't ever know.


I keep meaning to watch the tyrereviews group test, as someone said he said the same about the Michelins, great tyre but just doesn't feel sporty at all.

[JasonSteel]

Ed.Neumann said:

Not Pirelli that's for sure!



The Cup 2's are much better than the PS4s, I ran them last summer, but still not the best steering feel, amazing overall grip though, but in all honesty, on the road I would never get to the point where I'm testing the grip levels of Cup 2's anyway.

The Bridgestone S-02 A are a good example of the other extreme, much sharper steering and razor sharp turn in, one of the most fun Porsche N rated tyres I have used, but no longer available. However, a bit noisy and obviously quite a bit firmer to get that steering feel.


But hearing very good reports on the Bridgetsone Potenza Sport, and from the Conti Sport Contact 7.

Both tyres have gone for steering response and feel at the cost of a bit of noise and comfort, the Bridgestone more so.
But I think they start with just under 6mm of tread, so fine if you're happy to swap every 6-8k or so, I get that is not for everyone. I only do 4-5k a year in the 911, so by the time they have worn out it has been long enough to have forgotten about the previous bill.


But will try one of those next as I do really miss the ultra sharp turn in that Michelins have lost on their recent models.

those tyres aren't N rated though are they? i still keep the warranty going so would need them to be

i get what you're saying about turn in, but my use for the car is year round road use, and for that i'm really happy with the Michelins

i'm not sure steering *feel* is reduced though with the Michelins, especially vs the Pirellis which for me had no feel whatsoever, and would often step out of line and/or lose grip without warning if i even thought about accelerating

but i get the steering might be slower with the Michelins

i've never had an alignment done so maybe i should?

[johnny senna]

JasonSteel said:

those tyres aren't N rated though are they? i still keep the warranty going so would need them to be

i get what you're saying about turn in, but my use for the car is year round road use, and for that i'm really happy with the Michelins

i'm not sure steering *feel* is reduced though with the Michelins, especially vs the Pirellis which for me had no feel whatsoever, and would often step out of line and/or lose grip without warning if i even thought about accelerating

but i get the steering might be slower with the Michelins

i've never had an alignment done so maybe i should?

NA0 OEM Michelins definitely have worse turn in (and steering feel) than NA0 OEM Goodyears. As I mentioned before, for that reason I’m going back to NA0 OEM Goodyears next time for my 992S. Turn in and steering feel really does matter. This is a 911.

Edited by johnny senna on Friday 14th June 08:43

[Ed.Neumann]

JasonSteel said:

those tyres aren't N rated though are they? i still keep the warranty going so would need them to be

No they're not.

Not sure you need to keep N rated anymore for warranty do you? I thought that had changed recently?

JasonSteel said:

i get what you're saying about turn in, but my use for the car is year round road use, and for that i'm really happy with the Michelins

I'm not knocking the Michelins, I think they are a great tyre, I ran PS4S last time and and then I got a set of wheels with the Cup 2s on them so ran them over summer.

The PS4S is hard to get in the correct 18" sizes, so for winter I have put on regular PS4, which have actually worked really well in the cold and wet, in fact incredibly well. So I'm not knocking the Michelins at all, I really like them.

But rather than more Cup 2s, if we ever get a bloody summer, I think I am going to try one of the tyres that are getting rave reviews for how precise the steering feels as that is the one thing I'm really missing. It is really difficult to explain just how much difference there is in feel, it is not subtle.
The reality is, I might get them fitted, love them and then slowly as I do some longer journeys, go round the M25 a few times and hit the concrete section think "WTF have a I put these on for?"

This isn't a case of one is better than the other, just they are different and we tend to want different things at different times.

It is like suspension, I had the sport M030 dampers, great when pressing on, but too fidgety at the back under 40mph and on crappy B roads, swapped for standard dampers and that felt amazing at first, but then when you press on you think "Hmmm, this could do with being a smidge firmer."
So you try another damper set up and new springs, more progressive set up that gives you a bit of both, much better when pressing on and more that liveable on the crappiest of roads.

A good compromise. I think that is probably what the PS4S offers.

But, if the Goodyear Supersport or the Conti Sport Contact 7 offer 90% of the comfort, wet grip and quietness of the PS4s and 90% of the steering feel of the Bridgestones that might be an even better compromise? Next time I swap tyres I will give one of them a go.