718 GTS 4.0 - is it special enough as a 'last' ICE?
Discussion
With the imminent demise of the 718 ICE cars, I've found myself thinking about 718 GTS 4.0 litre cars, both Boxster and Cayman.
I recently sold my daily driver 987.2 Cayman and I'm picking up it's replacement, a lovely aqua blue 981 Boxster 2.7 PDK, this Thursday. I also have a very track focussed Caterham R300, it's a special spec that's taken me a long time to upgrade and it's incredible to drive on track and throughout the summer, especially given I live near to some amazing driving roads.
Despite being excited about the Boxster's arrival, I can't help thinking the time is fast approaching to get that 'last' ICE car to store away for good, especially as I have the funds to do it and MrsGP is on side. I'm tracking the Caterham less and less and my attitude to the risks driving it are changing as I get older, in short I worry about the consequences of being hit by another car and it diminishes the fun factor.
If I sold the Caterham (and there would be no going back, I'd struggle to get anything like mine again without spending a disproportionate amount) would swapping it for a manual GTS 4.0 be in any way comparable? I wouldn't want to track it, but I would want to have a similar sense of occasion and that 'special' feeling when taking it out on an early morning run in the summer.
If not, should I stretch to a 718 Spyder or GT4? It's obviously a great problem to have but I'm prone to over-thinking/obsessing about these sorts of decisions so any guidance is appreciated
I recently sold my daily driver 987.2 Cayman and I'm picking up it's replacement, a lovely aqua blue 981 Boxster 2.7 PDK, this Thursday. I also have a very track focussed Caterham R300, it's a special spec that's taken me a long time to upgrade and it's incredible to drive on track and throughout the summer, especially given I live near to some amazing driving roads.
Despite being excited about the Boxster's arrival, I can't help thinking the time is fast approaching to get that 'last' ICE car to store away for good, especially as I have the funds to do it and MrsGP is on side. I'm tracking the Caterham less and less and my attitude to the risks driving it are changing as I get older, in short I worry about the consequences of being hit by another car and it diminishes the fun factor.
If I sold the Caterham (and there would be no going back, I'd struggle to get anything like mine again without spending a disproportionate amount) would swapping it for a manual GTS 4.0 be in any way comparable? I wouldn't want to track it, but I would want to have a similar sense of occasion and that 'special' feeling when taking it out on an early morning run in the summer.
If not, should I stretch to a 718 Spyder or GT4? It's obviously a great problem to have but I'm prone to over-thinking/obsessing about these sorts of decisions so any guidance is appreciated
TL;DR Yes - it’s exactly what I did. I got myself a manual GTS 4.0 and I see it as the last modern mid engine, naturally aspirated manual car from Porsche. Only other alternative would be the Emira?
GTS 4.0 / GT4 / Spyder all roughly the same with few small trade-offs depending on the case.
Do note that with the way electric cars are going (hitting a growth stumbling block and the impracticality of building the necessary infrastructure by 2035), it’s likely that we will see some sort of reversal / extension, so it’s hard to predict what will happen in 2+ car generations.
GTS 4.0 / GT4 / Spyder all roughly the same with few small trade-offs depending on the case.
Do note that with the way electric cars are going (hitting a growth stumbling block and the impracticality of building the necessary infrastructure by 2035), it’s likely that we will see some sort of reversal / extension, so it’s hard to predict what will happen in 2+ car generations.
New 4.0 GTS are over £90k on the Porsche website or a well specd GT4 under 1 year are the same price. I bought a new GT4 MY23 as they are the last ICE models and it’s ace. Had a 981S before which was also great fun. Have a Macan GTS for the daily drive I picked up new last year and will see if I can get another build slot before they cease production as well
Best Porsche i've owned, and while my back catalogue is not huge I've had a couple of GT cars. The GTS 4.0 package is just sensational in every way. I only sold mine for family reasons and miss it a lot.
Mine was a PDK, but that's just a personal choice. The exhaust seemed to get better/louder across the first 3k miles and I thought it sounded lovely. Handling, ride, space, tech, usability all spot on.
Mine was a PDK, but that's just a personal choice. The exhaust seemed to get better/louder across the first 3k miles and I thought it sounded lovely. Handling, ride, space, tech, usability all spot on.
In 2011 I went from R400 to 987.2 Spyder, and more latterly to 718 Spyder. Nothing compares to a Seven for a blat. The Spyder though does do things “better”. Nowhere near as immediate, but is very well engineered and cultured. And your luggage stays dry! I think quite a few have had a Spyder after a Seven, and the roof is part of the appeal - a Boxsterham if you like. I prefer open top to closed, so Boxster rather than Cayman. GTS is the sensible road based option, but the Spyder has something extra special if it’s for high days and holidays.
Whether it's special enough as a last ICE car depends on your budget I guess. Perhaps it's not as special as a GT3 or various Astons, Ferraris, McLarens. But for £80-£90k-ish new, there's not much to touch it. Mustang Dark Horse perhaps re the engine, but of course it's a very different sort of car.
I've had my 4.0 GTS since November 2020 and I have no intention of changing it unless it breaks. It replaced a 981 GT4, and before that I hade a 987.1 Cayman S from March 2006. I love Caymans.
I also have an E90 M3 and a GR Yaris which I have chosen carefully as my ICE cars to keep until they break. I would replace the GR Yaris with the new model if I can get one, but otherwise I will happily stick with what I have. Love them all!
I've had my 4.0 GTS since November 2020 and I have no intention of changing it unless it breaks. It replaced a 981 GT4, and before that I hade a 987.1 Cayman S from March 2006. I love Caymans.
I also have an E90 M3 and a GR Yaris which I have chosen carefully as my ICE cars to keep until they break. I would replace the GR Yaris with the new model if I can get one, but otherwise I will happily stick with what I have. Love them all!
Thank you all for the replies and insights so far. To answer some of the points made...
I guess what I'm trying to find out is whether a GTS 4.0 (or Spyder/GT4 if I were to stretch the budget) would be special enough to compete in any meaningful way with the driving experience of the Caterham and if I would be happy to swap it out. With the 718 going to EV shortly and other sports cars following suit (Lotus, Caterham etc) I feel it's getting closer to the time when I settle on the best ICE car my budget allows and keep it very long term. I've always had a sunny day/weekend car in the garage as well as my daily driver so naturally I want something that has that sense of occasion and specialness the daily lacks.
I accept C3m's point that we might have a bit more time to do this than I might think right now and that it's hard to predict what will happen in the future.
Part of the appeal of the 718 GTS/Spyder/GT4 is that it's doable and I love the way the Boxster and Cayman drive. Unfortunately I don't have the budget for a GT3
I also fully accept I need to go and drive them as av185 says before I make a final decision.
I guess what I'm trying to find out is whether a GTS 4.0 (or Spyder/GT4 if I were to stretch the budget) would be special enough to compete in any meaningful way with the driving experience of the Caterham and if I would be happy to swap it out. With the 718 going to EV shortly and other sports cars following suit (Lotus, Caterham etc) I feel it's getting closer to the time when I settle on the best ICE car my budget allows and keep it very long term. I've always had a sunny day/weekend car in the garage as well as my daily driver so naturally I want something that has that sense of occasion and specialness the daily lacks.
I accept C3m's point that we might have a bit more time to do this than I might think right now and that it's hard to predict what will happen in the future.
Part of the appeal of the 718 GTS/Spyder/GT4 is that it's doable and I love the way the Boxster and Cayman drive. Unfortunately I don't have the budget for a GT3
I also fully accept I need to go and drive them as av185 says before I make a final decision.
I had a GTS 4.0 for 18 months, it was a fantastic car, did everything well, refined enough when needed and a blast on the track. I found it lacked some of the experience that my Elise had for a purely weekend car though, so I chopped it in for a slightly older 718 Spyder. Not regretting that decision one bit, and I've only had it through winter. Roll on summer!
As others have said, try all 3 (GTS, GT4, Spyder) and see what ticks the most boxes.
As others have said, try all 3 (GTS, GT4, Spyder) and see what ticks the most boxes.
Its the only way really and just one more point if you like the rawness and driver focus of a Caterham you would probably prefer the GT4/Spyder with buckets. GT3 chassis and more powerful higher revving engine v the GTS adds to the overall appeal.
On the road imo the GT4 is 85% of a GT3 at roughly half the price.
On the road imo the GT4 is 85% of a GT3 at roughly half the price.
Edited by av185 on Tuesday 13th February 21:45
I have been fortunate to have E46 M3, E92 M3 and C43 AMG as daily drivers. They have all been fantastic and amazing cars in their own right. I then moved to Cayman 2.5s and now a 4.0 GTS. I can honestly say the GTS is the most awesome, fantastic car of those I have owned for daily use. However, I have had a TVR T350C for 13 years and it is still the car that has put the most sweat, fun and smiles on my face. BUT, it is a different car and is it not a fair comparison to the Porsche, the same way the Caterham experience will not be comparable. If you can have both do so as they are for different occasions and experiences.
Your priority is for it to feel special and to be as close to the Caterham as possible. The Spyder would be the closest to meeting your requirements.
A left field choice might be a 997 GT3.
Ps. I note that you used to have a Clío 172. I’ve just added a tracked out one of these to my collection. Picking it up tomorrow.
A left field choice might be a 997 GT3.
Ps. I note that you used to have a Clío 172. I’ve just added a tracked out one of these to my collection. Picking it up tomorrow.
Hmm... I've have a 981 GT4 for about 5 1/2 years, and a Cayman GTS 4.0 for about 6 months that I use pretty much every day. Both have manual gearboxes. The GT4 has the Club Sport cage and extinguisher, carbon buckets, and 6-point harnesses.
A long while (over 20 years) back I used to drive a lot of Caterhams with various engine specs, and some derivatives with ludicrous engines (Westfield SEight was pretty memorable, can't remember who made the even wider bodied thing with the Cosworth YB Turbo engine in it, but that was absolutely mental.)
Short answer is "no". The Porsches are much too refined, nothing like "direct" feeling enough. Because the aerodynamic drag is so much less they also go too fast on the road, rather than hitting a comforting wall of drag that means the top speed isn't totally ludicrous, despite ridiculously quick acceleration. Of all the "Sevens" I had the pleasure of driving, the best all rounders were the Caterhams, and they were at their best with 1.6 - 2.0 litre NA 4-cylinder engines, ideally that you could hang a few revs on the get the power.
I'm not saying the GTS 4.0 is less than brilliant, and it's as quick as anyone could really need a road car to be. Puts a smile on my face every morning, but there really isn't that much of a sense of occasion. 2-way sports plus seats, heated, as is the leather multifunction sports steering wheel, probably take a little away from that. I'm 57, so in a good way, creature comforts can be a good thing!
The 981 GT4 does have a bit more sense of occasion. Slightly more obnoxiously loud, less refined to drive, and handles amazingly after a good suspension setup. Also has brakes that squeal at slow traffic speeds once you have cooked them properly at track speed, every underbody noise transmitted straight through to the passenger compartment. This includes the electric handbrake's inner workings, and every tiny stone that hits a rear strut reverberating through the slightly creaky rear roll-cage. I'm probably not selling it, but it's a visceral and thoroughly enjoyable experience. I've driven a manual 718 GT4, and it has some of those traits, but they definitely knocked off some of the rough edges of the 981, and I'd miss them. (Oh, and the exhaust note. GTS 4.0 and 718 GT4 sound better than anyone would have you believe, but the 981 GT4 absolutely howls in comparison.)
Does it get close to the Caterham sense of occasion? It's different, and it's really good, but for me it really doesn't. If it rained a little less often where I live, I'd definitely be considering a Caterham as a weekend/trackday alternative. You really do need to drive a few of these before you decide. Maybe not the quite the same feeling leaving the drive on a sunny Sunday morning, but not the same doesn't mean not as good. My gut feel is that while brilliant, and plenty fast, the GTS 4.0 is just a bit too refined.
Liam
A long while (over 20 years) back I used to drive a lot of Caterhams with various engine specs, and some derivatives with ludicrous engines (Westfield SEight was pretty memorable, can't remember who made the even wider bodied thing with the Cosworth YB Turbo engine in it, but that was absolutely mental.)
Short answer is "no". The Porsches are much too refined, nothing like "direct" feeling enough. Because the aerodynamic drag is so much less they also go too fast on the road, rather than hitting a comforting wall of drag that means the top speed isn't totally ludicrous, despite ridiculously quick acceleration. Of all the "Sevens" I had the pleasure of driving, the best all rounders were the Caterhams, and they were at their best with 1.6 - 2.0 litre NA 4-cylinder engines, ideally that you could hang a few revs on the get the power.
I'm not saying the GTS 4.0 is less than brilliant, and it's as quick as anyone could really need a road car to be. Puts a smile on my face every morning, but there really isn't that much of a sense of occasion. 2-way sports plus seats, heated, as is the leather multifunction sports steering wheel, probably take a little away from that. I'm 57, so in a good way, creature comforts can be a good thing!
The 981 GT4 does have a bit more sense of occasion. Slightly more obnoxiously loud, less refined to drive, and handles amazingly after a good suspension setup. Also has brakes that squeal at slow traffic speeds once you have cooked them properly at track speed, every underbody noise transmitted straight through to the passenger compartment. This includes the electric handbrake's inner workings, and every tiny stone that hits a rear strut reverberating through the slightly creaky rear roll-cage. I'm probably not selling it, but it's a visceral and thoroughly enjoyable experience. I've driven a manual 718 GT4, and it has some of those traits, but they definitely knocked off some of the rough edges of the 981, and I'd miss them. (Oh, and the exhaust note. GTS 4.0 and 718 GT4 sound better than anyone would have you believe, but the 981 GT4 absolutely howls in comparison.)
Does it get close to the Caterham sense of occasion? It's different, and it's really good, but for me it really doesn't. If it rained a little less often where I live, I'd definitely be considering a Caterham as a weekend/trackday alternative. You really do need to drive a few of these before you decide. Maybe not the quite the same feeling leaving the drive on a sunny Sunday morning, but not the same doesn't mean not as good. My gut feel is that while brilliant, and plenty fast, the GTS 4.0 is just a bit too refined.
Liam
If you want a last ICE car that has that special feeling for a morning blast while also being surprisingly good to use regularly and track also - can I suggest you consider an Exige 410 Sport. I have had 13 Caterhams (cross flow to 620R and most others in between) over the decades, so I know a little bit about them 
. I chose to replace my 620R with the Exige a couple of years ago - never regretted it for even a second.
. I chose to replace my 620R with the Exige a couple of years ago - never regretted it for even a second. Can't help on the Caterham, i'm not enough of an 'enthusiast' (whatever that means) to go-kart my way around the country lanes so I can only speak on this subject if your consideration is GTS v GT4 v Spyder. I owned a Spyder before my GTS.
A GTS is 95% of the GT4. Same engine and performance, save for 200 rpm higher rev limit. GT4 feels harder, less compromising but that sounds like what you want. Spyder is just a GT4 without a roof basically.
It's a lot of money to spend to make a wrong decision. Even with strong residuals you'll dump a load of money on the buy/sell spread so definitely drive them first. I'd just drive a Spyder and if that is close enough then there's your benchmark, as GTS will feel softer and more refined by comparison.
A GTS is 95% of the GT4. Same engine and performance, save for 200 rpm higher rev limit. GT4 feels harder, less compromising but that sounds like what you want. Spyder is just a GT4 without a roof basically.
It's a lot of money to spend to make a wrong decision. Even with strong residuals you'll dump a load of money on the buy/sell spread so definitely drive them first. I'd just drive a Spyder and if that is close enough then there's your benchmark, as GTS will feel softer and more refined by comparison.
Thanks again all, great advice all round (especially LiamH66) and it's all very helpful.
Lots for me to think about and it's obvious that this isn't going to be decided until I drive the cars in question. I just don't like wasting mine and dealer's time doing test drives on cars I'm not going to buy, so a bit of PH insight in to the choices to narrow things down is great.
I also know I'm a bit guilty of wanting to have cake and eat it here, in that I want to mix a raw driving experience with refinement so my expectations have been suitably managed
Grantstown, enjoy the Clio 172, I also had a 182 in my younger days and they're hilarious little cars!
Finmac, thanks for the suggestion on the Exige 410, I hadn't considered this, so I'll do some reading.
I'll update this thread again as and when I've done some test drives and arrived at more of a decision.
Lots for me to think about and it's obvious that this isn't going to be decided until I drive the cars in question. I just don't like wasting mine and dealer's time doing test drives on cars I'm not going to buy, so a bit of PH insight in to the choices to narrow things down is great.
I also know I'm a bit guilty of wanting to have cake and eat it here, in that I want to mix a raw driving experience with refinement so my expectations have been suitably managed
Grantstown, enjoy the Clio 172, I also had a 182 in my younger days and they're hilarious little cars!
Finmac, thanks for the suggestion on the Exige 410, I hadn't considered this, so I'll do some reading.
I'll update this thread again as and when I've done some test drives and arrived at more of a decision.
LiamH66 said:
Hmm... I've have a 981 GT4 for about 5 1/2 years, and a Cayman GTS 4.0 for about 6 months that I use pretty much every day. Both have manual gearboxes. The GT4 has the Club Sport cage and extinguisher, carbon buckets, and 6-point harnesses.
A long while (over 20 years) back I used to drive a lot of Caterhams with various engine specs, and some derivatives with ludicrous engines (Westfield SEight was pretty memorable, can't remember who made the even wider bodied thing with the Cosworth YB Turbo engine in it, but that was absolutely mental.)
Do you mean the older Dutch Donkervoort D8 Cosworth maybe with wide-track? standard they came in at around 220 hp but some had 360 or more in the lightweight.A long while (over 20 years) back I used to drive a lot of Caterhams with various engine specs, and some derivatives with ludicrous engines (Westfield SEight was pretty memorable, can't remember who made the even wider bodied thing with the Cosworth YB Turbo engine in it, but that was absolutely mental.)
Edited by GTRene on Wednesday 14th February 13:16
Cheib said:
Not sure GPF equipped cars will be what enthusiasts want to drive on a Sunday morning in a few years time. Maybe the 4.0 does qualify
My view too. I test drove a 4.0 manual Boxster and was very disappointed with the engine sound, at idle in particular. Before I get shot down it is probably one of the best modern engines that you can buy so if you want a car built in the last few years without a turbo, with a manual box and great handling then it is the obvious choice. Personally I would buy older as we hit peak ICE a while back.As for a Caterham, I've driven loads on the track and road and nothing gets close but now I am old the risk in being in one on the road does not work for me especially as a 2500kg car will be normal in the future so the accident risk is too great.
Edited by EC2 on Wednesday 14th February 13:28
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