718 Spyder - damper settings - normal v sport
Discussion
Does anyone have any info on the differences between the 2 damper settings?
After a teeth clenchingly uncomfortable visit to relatives in Portsmouth (not the relatives' fault - Portsmouth has road surfaces ranging from excellent to diabolical) my wife asked me whether I had selected the "sport" mode inadvertently as her back was "killing her".
I had not, of course, but as an experiment, on the return journey (including the M27 concrete section) I did select "Sport" to check her reaction, and I have to be honest, I could barely detect any difference myself....
Given the increasingly appalling quality of our roads - almost everywhere - I wonder if anyone has any experience of this possible solution from the US?
https://www.dscsport.com/product/dsc-sport-v3-cont...
It is plug&play and fully reversible (warranty blah blah) as well as being highly configurable.
If it works, I am very tempted...
After a teeth clenchingly uncomfortable visit to relatives in Portsmouth (not the relatives' fault - Portsmouth has road surfaces ranging from excellent to diabolical) my wife asked me whether I had selected the "sport" mode inadvertently as her back was "killing her".
I had not, of course, but as an experiment, on the return journey (including the M27 concrete section) I did select "Sport" to check her reaction, and I have to be honest, I could barely detect any difference myself....
Given the increasingly appalling quality of our roads - almost everywhere - I wonder if anyone has any experience of this possible solution from the US?
https://www.dscsport.com/product/dsc-sport-v3-cont...
It is plug&play and fully reversible (warranty blah blah) as well as being highly configurable.
If it works, I am very tempted...
Edited by Tony B2 on Friday 12th May 00:10
It's all about valves and fluid flow which affect compression and rebound damping. It obviously can't affect the spring rate:
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/porsche/108127/is-po...
I find that Normal gives the car a bit more body roll and a softer initial compression of the stroke with matching rebound. Sport firms this initial reaction and response up a bit but it's fairly subtle unless you're pushing on a bit e.g. on track. I actually leave my 718 GT4 in Sport and only use Normal if it's proper wet.
The DSC unit is a way to adjust Porsche's pre-set PASM settings but you'll need to either learn what they all do yourself or find someone else who can help map the system. However, I think the Porsche tuning is very good and matches the springs well so I'd be wary of throwing cash at a problem you can't solve without a hardware change.
The 718 Spyder has the same track firendly suspension setup as the GT4 so it sounds like your wife isn't comfortable with the associated firmer ride, unfortunately.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/porsche/108127/is-po...
I find that Normal gives the car a bit more body roll and a softer initial compression of the stroke with matching rebound. Sport firms this initial reaction and response up a bit but it's fairly subtle unless you're pushing on a bit e.g. on track. I actually leave my 718 GT4 in Sport and only use Normal if it's proper wet.
The DSC unit is a way to adjust Porsche's pre-set PASM settings but you'll need to either learn what they all do yourself or find someone else who can help map the system. However, I think the Porsche tuning is very good and matches the springs well so I'd be wary of throwing cash at a problem you can't solve without a hardware change.
The 718 Spyder has the same track firendly suspension setup as the GT4 so it sounds like your wife isn't comfortable with the associated firmer ride, unfortunately.
I ran DSC for a while and if you’re looking for more compliant ride… it will work and deliver that….that’s where its strength is.
However overall I have found that Porsche calibration is excellent and well judged for most cases.
I didn’t find that the DSC removed a bit of the Porsche feel. But ymmv.
However overall I have found that Porsche calibration is excellent and well judged for most cases.
I didn’t find that the DSC removed a bit of the Porsche feel. But ymmv.
TDT said:
I ran DSC for a while and if you’re looking for more compliant ride… it will work and deliver that….that’s where its strength is.
Wasn't that on your 981 though, T? Or did you try it on your 718?I know on the older cars (9x7, 9x1) it can make more of a difference the older the car is. I think Porsche PASM programming has improved over time, as you might expect.
Twinfan said:
TDT said:
I ran DSC for a while and if you’re looking for more compliant ride… it will work and deliver that….that’s where its strength is.
Wasn't that on your 981 though, T? Or did you try it on your 718?I know on the older cars (9x7, 9x1) it can make more of a difference the older the car is. I think Porsche PASM programming has improved over time, as you might expect.
Plenty of people have used on 718 GT4/Spyder with similar outcomes on the road also. DSC made the car smoother than 718 GT4 ride… which i already thought was ‘soft’ Vs OEM 981 GT4.
That’s why I didn’t continue with it… was the wrong direction for me and then I couldn’t faithfully predict how it would work on/over the limit on track or on a bumpy course… as there were some blind spots in the calibration at the time - hence my further comments about Porsche calibration really being very very good for more than 95%.
But as something to maybe help on the road… worth a shot especially if you can pick up a secondhand one. They pop up for sale every now and then.
For the 718, i bought it knowing it was going straight to MR kit.
I just did a couple of track days in OEM state to confirm that the kit definitely makes a difference.
Edited by TDT on Friday 12th May 10:30
Twinfan said:
It's all about valves and fluid flow which affect compression and rebound damping. It obviously can't affect the spring rate:
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/porsche/108127/is-po...
I find that Normal gives the car a bit more body roll and a softer initial compression of the stroke with matching rebound. Sport firms this initial reaction and response up a bit but it's fairly subtle unless you're pushing on a bit e.g. on track. I actually leave my 718 GT4 in Sport and only use Normal if it's proper wet.
The DSC unit is a way to adjust Porsche's pre-set PASM settings but you'll need to either learn what they all do yourself or find someone else who can help map the system. However, I think the Porsche tuning is very good and matches the springs well so I'd be wary of throwing cash at a problem you can't solve without a hardware change.
The 718 Spyder has the same track firendly suspension setup as the GT4 so it sounds like your wife isn't comfortable with the associated firmer ride, unfortunately.
Thanks for the link. I understand the principles, and have a similar system on my E92 M3. With the M3 you definitely feel a difference between each of the 3 modes, however.https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/porsche/108127/is-po...
I find that Normal gives the car a bit more body roll and a softer initial compression of the stroke with matching rebound. Sport firms this initial reaction and response up a bit but it's fairly subtle unless you're pushing on a bit e.g. on track. I actually leave my 718 GT4 in Sport and only use Normal if it's proper wet.
The DSC unit is a way to adjust Porsche's pre-set PASM settings but you'll need to either learn what they all do yourself or find someone else who can help map the system. However, I think the Porsche tuning is very good and matches the springs well so I'd be wary of throwing cash at a problem you can't solve without a hardware change.
The 718 Spyder has the same track firendly suspension setup as the GT4 so it sounds like your wife isn't comfortable with the associated firmer ride, unfortunately.
With the M3, the damping is constantly varying (within each mode) according to steering inputs, yaw, lateral acceleration, roll etc - the article does not make it clear which parameters are used as inputs to PASM (assuming it modulates in the same way?)
Much as I love my Spyder (only had it about 3 months) I have to say it is definitely not optimised for UK roads in the "normal" setting, and at lower speeds it really sets my teeth on edge on moderately poor road surfaces. It is not just my wife's back complaining!
Only when really pushing on does it seem better resolved, and I have to drive at least 15 miles before I can find a road to get into its comfort zone.
On Sunday morning I drove the Spyder in the Meon Valley area (my go-to zone for nice driving roads) and then on Monday repeated the same route in the M3.
No teeth-gritting was involved on Monday....;-) but I still had plenty of smiles/mile.
Don't get me wrong - I know the Spyder can provide huge pleasure on better surfaces.
I am off to the Alps.
I might be some time.....
TDT said:
Yes was on the 981.
Plenty of people have used on 718 GT4/Spyder with similar outcomes on the road also. DSC made the car smoother than 718 GT4 ride… which i already thought was ‘soft’ Vs OEM 981 GT4.
That’s why I didn’t continue with it… was the wrong direction for me and then I couldn’t faithfully predict how it would work on/over the limit on track or on a bumpy course… as there were some blind spots in the calibration at the time - hence my further comments about Porsche calibration really being very very good for more than 95%.
But as something to maybe help on the road… worth a shot especially if you can pick up a secondhand one. They pop up for sale every now and then.]
For the 718, i bought it knowing it was going straight to MR kit.
I just did a couple of track days in OEM state to confirm that the kit definitely makes a difference.
I am guessing that most will pop-up in the US - rennlist etc?Plenty of people have used on 718 GT4/Spyder with similar outcomes on the road also. DSC made the car smoother than 718 GT4 ride… which i already thought was ‘soft’ Vs OEM 981 GT4.
That’s why I didn’t continue with it… was the wrong direction for me and then I couldn’t faithfully predict how it would work on/over the limit on track or on a bumpy course… as there were some blind spots in the calibration at the time - hence my further comments about Porsche calibration really being very very good for more than 95%.
But as something to maybe help on the road… worth a shot especially if you can pick up a secondhand one. They pop up for sale every now and then.]
For the 718, i bought it knowing it was going straight to MR kit.
I just did a couple of track days in OEM state to confirm that the kit definitely makes a difference.
Edited by TDT on Friday 12th May 10:30
TPC racing that sell the units have prepared maps specific for each car…. You don’t need to delve into tuning the DSC module unless you are looking to achieve something more than it does out of the box.
It is really plug and play and just replaces the standard PASM unit. It’s a ten min job to swap in the 718 including boiling kettle for a cup of tea, as PASM unit is in the frunk. Much easier access than on 981.
Not sure where you are located… NineExcellence (9e) are well known resellers and will usually load a custom map for you if you purchase from them. I believe Parr also resell.
There may be others also.
Something to also consider is your tyres… if you are on Cup 2 or Race Maxx… maybe think about changing to something more mainly road oriented if the car won’t see much track. Something like PS4S will work very well to give some comfort, and reduce a little bit of road noise also. Wide range of operation - from few hot laps on a track to UK autumn.
It is really plug and play and just replaces the standard PASM unit. It’s a ten min job to swap in the 718 including boiling kettle for a cup of tea, as PASM unit is in the frunk. Much easier access than on 981.
Not sure where you are located… NineExcellence (9e) are well known resellers and will usually load a custom map for you if you purchase from them. I believe Parr also resell.
There may be others also.
Something to also consider is your tyres… if you are on Cup 2 or Race Maxx… maybe think about changing to something more mainly road oriented if the car won’t see much track. Something like PS4S will work very well to give some comfort, and reduce a little bit of road noise also. Wide range of operation - from few hot laps on a track to UK autumn.
Tony B2 said:
...With the M3, the damping is constantly varying (within each mode) according to steering inputs, yaw, lateral acceleration, roll etc - the article does not make it clear which parameters are used as inputs to PASM (assuming it modulates in the same way?)
PASM is the same, constantly varying damping within the selected Map. There's some overlap between them, so on a poor road the dampers may stiffen in Normal, and soften up in Sport.Inputs include lateral and vertical acceleration, speed, steering angle, engine torque & rpm, brake pressure and each damper is controlled separately.
I was going to chime in and ask about tyres.
I specced my Spyder with the summer tyre option, and it was a nervous wait to see if it came with PZeros or PS4. The PZeros are known to be a bit less compliant, luckily mine came on the Michelins. Obviously you might have the sport tyre option instead but worth checking.
On my one, I never found the ride that bad in Normal, but noticeably uncomfortable in Sport. You should feel a difference.
I specced my Spyder with the summer tyre option, and it was a nervous wait to see if it came with PZeros or PS4. The PZeros are known to be a bit less compliant, luckily mine came on the Michelins. Obviously you might have the sport tyre option instead but worth checking.
On my one, I never found the ride that bad in Normal, but noticeably uncomfortable in Sport. You should feel a difference.
M11rph said:
Tony B2 said:
...With the M3, the damping is constantly varying (within each mode) according to steering inputs, yaw, lateral acceleration, roll etc - the article does not make it clear which parameters are used as inputs to PASM (assuming it modulates in the same way?)
PASM is the same, constantly varying damping within the selected Map. There's some overlap between them, so on a poor road the dampers may stiffen in Normal, and soften up in Sport.Inputs include lateral and vertical acceleration, speed, steering angle, engine torque & rpm, brake pressure and each damper is controlled separately.
I tune them for a living, I‘m sceptical that a tuner can invest the 10’s of millions required to develop the hardware, software and calibration.
TDT said:
Kawasicki said:
Most adaptive damping systems vary force constantly.
I tune them for a living, I‘m sceptical that a tuner can invest the 10’s of millions required to develop the hardware, software and calibration.
Yep!I tune them for a living, I‘m sceptical that a tuner can invest the 10’s of millions required to develop the hardware, software and calibration.
It definitely alters the behaviour of the car…. But my experience was that there are something it cannot do or let’s say blind spots in the mapping… more so if you are just adding it to operate with the OEM dampers… which cannot react as quickly as the DSC is issuing commands. At the end of the day these things are complete systems… so change one part and you might just shift the issue to the next component in the chain.
As i said, ymmv.
As i said, ymmv.
Kawasicki said:
Most adaptive damping systems vary force constantly.
I tune them for a living, I‘m sceptical that a tuner can invest the 10’s of millions required to develop the hardware, software and calibration.
The DSC is just an existing map being retuned/refined to do a couple of different things (possibly better) though. It's not that it's reinventing the adaptive damping entirely so the requirement for a lot of resources is probably rather a lot less. OEM stuff can definitely be improved on after all even if obviously no smaller shop is going to be able to deploy comparable resources to those at PAG's disposal.I tune them for a living, I‘m sceptical that a tuner can invest the 10’s of millions required to develop the hardware, software and calibration.
I had the DSC on my 981 for 3 years and the standard map was softer and sport one 'stiffer'.
However in both modes around London (street humps, holes etc.) the ride is rough and sometimes jarring.
I've now got aftermarket shocks with harder front springs (non-electronic MR KWs 3 way) and find these to be much, much better at adapting to road surface changes, bumps etc. at speeds above 20 mph - TDT has the same and has had them for longer - Tyrone what do you say?
But this is no gentle street cruiser and Mrs Snow has probably driven with me 3 times in the car.
In any guise it is more comfortable than my 1959 series 2 Land Rover.
I wonder if you could find a DSC equipped 718 GT4 to try - the suspensions are the same in 718 models.
However in both modes around London (street humps, holes etc.) the ride is rough and sometimes jarring.
I've now got aftermarket shocks with harder front springs (non-electronic MR KWs 3 way) and find these to be much, much better at adapting to road surface changes, bumps etc. at speeds above 20 mph - TDT has the same and has had them for longer - Tyrone what do you say?
But this is no gentle street cruiser and Mrs Snow has probably driven with me 3 times in the car.
In any guise it is more comfortable than my 1959 series 2 Land Rover.
I wonder if you could find a DSC equipped 718 GT4 to try - the suspensions are the same in 718 models.
isaldiri said:
Kawasicki said:
Most adaptive damping systems vary force constantly.
I tune them for a living, I‘m sceptical that a tuner can invest the 10’s of millions required to develop the hardware, software and calibration.
The DSC is just an existing map being retuned/refined to do a couple of different things (possibly better) though. It's not that it's reinventing the adaptive damping entirely so the requirement for a lot of resources is probably rather a lot less. OEM stuff can definitely be improved on after all even if obviously no smaller shop is going to be able to deploy comparable resources to those at PAG's disposal.I tune them for a living, I‘m sceptical that a tuner can invest the 10’s of millions required to develop the hardware, software and calibration.
“Improved upon“ is a subjective, individual, assessment.
I don’t doubt that some customers might find the modded setup better. Imagine a Porsche customer that drives regularly on American freeways with continuous expansion gaps. Maybe they find Porsche‘s preferred tune really annoying… a modification might bring an improvement for their usage case.
Anyway, I‘d love to see how these units actually work.
TDT said:
TPC racing that sell the units have prepared maps specific for each car…. You don’t need to delve into tuning the DSC module unless you are looking to achieve something more than it does out of the box.
It is really plug and play and just replaces the standard PASM unit. It’s a ten min job to swap in the 718 including boiling kettle for a cup of tea, as PASM unit is in the frunk. Much easier access than on 981.
Not sure where you are located… NineExcellence (9e) are well known resellers and will usually load a custom map for you if you purchase from them. I believe Parr also resell.
There may be others also.
Something to also consider is your tyres… if you are on Cup 2 or Race Maxx… maybe think about changing to something more mainly road oriented if the car won’t see much track. Something like PS4S will work very well to give some comfort, and reduce a little bit of road noise also. Wide range of operation - from few hot laps on a track to UK autumn.
Thanks for the insight, very useful.It is really plug and play and just replaces the standard PASM unit. It’s a ten min job to swap in the 718 including boiling kettle for a cup of tea, as PASM unit is in the frunk. Much easier access than on 981.
Not sure where you are located… NineExcellence (9e) are well known resellers and will usually load a custom map for you if you purchase from them. I believe Parr also resell.
There may be others also.
Something to also consider is your tyres… if you are on Cup 2 or Race Maxx… maybe think about changing to something more mainly road oriented if the car won’t see much track. Something like PS4S will work very well to give some comfort, and reduce a little bit of road noise also. Wide range of operation - from few hot laps on a track to UK autumn.
I am in Hampshire.
On tyres - Cup 2s, and I am very careful about getting the right pressures when they have warmed up to normal operating temperatures. Currently this means setting 2 or 3 psi below sticker pressures when cold (wonderful summer, etc).
I am eagerly awaiting the Tyre Reviews analysis of the new MPS S5 tyres, as they have more tread than Cup 2s so should at least be better on aquaplaning. And a tyre pressure/temp app as well, I believe.
Having said that the PS4S alternative is definitely viable, and being less sticky when hot will probably chuck fewer stones up at the rear bumper (mini-flaps could be on the horizon...;-)..)
Damper setting changes are generally pretty limited, and cannot change the other 2 factors that have at least as much effect on ride quality: tyres, and road spring rates. I've been spoiling myself over much of the last ~6 years, having had 2 base 718 Caymans with 18" wheels and PASM (lowered, with PTV and mechanical diff lock) for everyday use.
In the 981 GT4 I've also had for the last 4.5 years, the damping is possibly not quite as refined as the 718 base models for road use. However I suspect the bigger wheel diameters and lower profile tyres mean that it can never get all that close. It rides nicer on more "road oriented" tyres without any doubt. (I have a set of P Zeroes for everyday use, and a set of 718 GT4 rims with Michelin Cup 2 for high days, dry days and track days. The P Zeroes are more user friendly for everyday road use.)
Remember that the "A" in PASM stands for "adaptive". The damping will adapt to the type of driving you are doing in either mode. Changing to sport mode seems to make little difference when making progress down a badly surfaced motorway. But then why would it? In either mode, it will most likely have softened off to the setting that gives best ride comfort.
Different story on the track, where the change in compromise between roll/dive/squat control, and ride over kerbs and bumps is much more obvious. I tend to stay on the normal mode on bumpier tracks, and only switch to sport mode if the car feels like it is "wallowing" in fast corners. If the track is smooth and none of the kerbs seem bumpy, I switch to sport mode and leave it there. I have never found any reason to use sport mode on the road so far. Whenever I have tried it, it doesn't feel better.
Unfortunately I think you might be stuck with 20" rims on the 718 Spyder, as not much else will fit over the front callipers. I'm sacrificing the ride comfort of the 718 base model on 18" rims to a 4.0 GTS on 20" in the near future. Fortunately it appears 18" wheels will still fit the GTS, so I'll hang onto my winter wheel/tyre set from the current base model, and hopefully won't be too badly jarred by the potholes once they are fitted.
My wife has rarely joined me in any Porsche so far. Aside from ride comfort, she seems to be ideologically opposed to high quality sports cars. Generally a lot more expensive than wheels and tyres, but you could always consider changing your wife.
Liam
In the 981 GT4 I've also had for the last 4.5 years, the damping is possibly not quite as refined as the 718 base models for road use. However I suspect the bigger wheel diameters and lower profile tyres mean that it can never get all that close. It rides nicer on more "road oriented" tyres without any doubt. (I have a set of P Zeroes for everyday use, and a set of 718 GT4 rims with Michelin Cup 2 for high days, dry days and track days. The P Zeroes are more user friendly for everyday road use.)
Remember that the "A" in PASM stands for "adaptive". The damping will adapt to the type of driving you are doing in either mode. Changing to sport mode seems to make little difference when making progress down a badly surfaced motorway. But then why would it? In either mode, it will most likely have softened off to the setting that gives best ride comfort.
Different story on the track, where the change in compromise between roll/dive/squat control, and ride over kerbs and bumps is much more obvious. I tend to stay on the normal mode on bumpier tracks, and only switch to sport mode if the car feels like it is "wallowing" in fast corners. If the track is smooth and none of the kerbs seem bumpy, I switch to sport mode and leave it there. I have never found any reason to use sport mode on the road so far. Whenever I have tried it, it doesn't feel better.
Unfortunately I think you might be stuck with 20" rims on the 718 Spyder, as not much else will fit over the front callipers. I'm sacrificing the ride comfort of the 718 base model on 18" rims to a 4.0 GTS on 20" in the near future. Fortunately it appears 18" wheels will still fit the GTS, so I'll hang onto my winter wheel/tyre set from the current base model, and hopefully won't be too badly jarred by the potholes once they are fitted.
My wife has rarely joined me in any Porsche so far. Aside from ride comfort, she seems to be ideologically opposed to high quality sports cars. Generally a lot more expensive than wheels and tyres, but you could always consider changing your wife.
Liam
Edited by LiamH66 on Friday 12th May 23:54
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