Why is 981 GT4 engine derided?
Discussion
As another thread on here and a few others - there seems to be a sense that the 3.8 engine in the 981 GT4 is somehow strangled, held back and has flat spots. Is this really the case? FWIW I have a 981 Spyder with the same engine and have never felt this is the case. Does the Spyder have a different map? Or is everyone wrong? Or am I missing something? For example see:
A couple of people saying they didn’t like it’s characteristics, doesn’t make it ‘derided’. Lol.
981 Spyder has a slightly different tune… makes slightly less hp on paper.
Ultimately people have complained that the standard 9A1 3.8 in the 981 GT4/Spyder
- should get better fuel economy,
- has some dips in the torque curve
- runs out of real puff after about 6.5k
All of which has truth.
As time has moved on… the 4.0 9A2 EVO came into existence… and it does address the aforementioned points. It’s cleaner, more powerful, revs hard to increase redline, building power all the way.
But, it doesn’t sound as good standard, and then because its also very linear…. It could be said it is not as evocative/characterful. It just a hard charging unit.
This dyno graph depicts the typical story… although the difference is greater than on paper.
That said, doesn’t make the 9A1 a bad engine. Far from it.
The engine can support higher states of tune, for 981 and 911… as per the factory x51 kit, It was (981 Clubsport) and is still (718 Clubsport) successfully raced. The listed ‘issues’ can be easily resolved with very light aftermarket tweaks, for not much outlay if the graph bothers you and you want to clean up the curves, or you want more engine performance, but you otherwise love the car.
4.0 9A2 EVO has only seen use in road cars, to date, in a couple of broadly similar states of tune +/- 20hp, and Porsche have not seemingly invested further into it.
Maybe it can live on in the 992.2 with hybrid?
981 Spyder has a slightly different tune… makes slightly less hp on paper.
Ultimately people have complained that the standard 9A1 3.8 in the 981 GT4/Spyder
- should get better fuel economy,
- has some dips in the torque curve
- runs out of real puff after about 6.5k
All of which has truth.
As time has moved on… the 4.0 9A2 EVO came into existence… and it does address the aforementioned points. It’s cleaner, more powerful, revs hard to increase redline, building power all the way.
But, it doesn’t sound as good standard, and then because its also very linear…. It could be said it is not as evocative/characterful. It just a hard charging unit.
This dyno graph depicts the typical story… although the difference is greater than on paper.
That said, doesn’t make the 9A1 a bad engine. Far from it.
The engine can support higher states of tune, for 981 and 911… as per the factory x51 kit, It was (981 Clubsport) and is still (718 Clubsport) successfully raced. The listed ‘issues’ can be easily resolved with very light aftermarket tweaks, for not much outlay if the graph bothers you and you want to clean up the curves, or you want more engine performance, but you otherwise love the car.
4.0 9A2 EVO has only seen use in road cars, to date, in a couple of broadly similar states of tune +/- 20hp, and Porsche have not seemingly invested further into it.
Maybe it can live on in the 992.2 with hybrid?
Edited by TDT on Friday 17th February 22:11
I'm surprised at people complain about fuel economy, really, honestly never look at fuel figures when buying a fun car. My 360 guzzled fuel like crazy, my 3.4 GTS did 11mpg on a blast, who really cares lol.
The 3.8 is fine, whilst the 3.4 was a fun revy motor, my adjustable spanner had more torque, flat as a pancake, still fun mind. A tweaked 3.8 like TDT's is perfect imo, I'd take that over the 4.0 that I drove and found none eventful. Not saying the 4.0 is a bad engine btw.
The 3.8 is fine, whilst the 3.4 was a fun revy motor, my adjustable spanner had more torque, flat as a pancake, still fun mind. A tweaked 3.8 like TDT's is perfect imo, I'd take that over the 4.0 that I drove and found none eventful. Not saying the 4.0 is a bad engine btw.
It's at least partially a question of expectations I think. For a 'GT' car, the 981 gt4's engine was not really comparable to either the 991 nor the 997 gt3 and while functional, never really sparkled in the way it should have. the power curve effectively flattening out after 6.5k was a large part of the issue I had. (Very) unfortunately, the 3.8 x51 as per the 991.1gts wasn't used despite already existing as a 'stock' solution as that's to my mind was an engine that had characteristics much better suited to the gt4 and indeed it did appear in the clubsport race car subsequently.
Definitely agree… it would have been spectacular (as I emulated, if i say so myself, thanks Jay), but x51 was a 10-12k option on the 911… so then 981 would not be a new unproven market entrant @65k and would have needed to be 70-75k… Like 718 GT4 was introduced at 4 years later… with a proven market demand… therefore investment justified.
996.1 GT3… was new entrant… and basically a Carrera with Aero kit. Barely made more power than normal Carrera… had tiny brakes … but was all about the chassis.
When the business case and demand was proven… we can see the step change with the 996.2 GT3 and then again with the 996RS.
So it’s a familiar product development life cycle.
996.1 GT3… was new entrant… and basically a Carrera with Aero kit. Barely made more power than normal Carrera… had tiny brakes … but was all about the chassis.
When the business case and demand was proven… we can see the step change with the 996.2 GT3 and then again with the 996RS.
So it’s a familiar product development life cycle.
Edited by TDT on Friday 17th February 23:13
The Spyder has the non-GT "GTS" style mapping and is much nicer IMHO. The Spyder is the pick of the 981 range IMHO.
I know TDT and others feel differently, but the 981 GT4 to me felt like a rushed and unfinished project. The auto blip button getting a pre-existing "Sport" label is a prime example. How long would it have really taken to get a proper button made up?
A lot of people like that home-brew feel of the car but it wasn't for me. The engine is the soul of any car and I just found it rough.
I'm well aware I'm in the minority though!
I know TDT and others feel differently, but the 981 GT4 to me felt like a rushed and unfinished project. The auto blip button getting a pre-existing "Sport" label is a prime example. How long would it have really taken to get a proper button made up?
A lot of people like that home-brew feel of the car but it wasn't for me. The engine is the soul of any car and I just found it rough.
I'm well aware I'm in the minority though!
Twinfan said:
The Spyder has the non-GT "GTS" style mapping and is much nicer IMHO. The Spyder is the pick of the 981 range IMHO.
I know TDT and others feel differently, but the 981 GT4 to me felt like a rushed and unfinished project. The auto blip button getting a pre-existing "Sport" label is a prime example. How long would it have really taken to get a proper button made up?
A lot of people like that home-brew feel of the car but it wasn't for me. The engine is the soul of any car and I just found it rough.
I'm well aware I'm in the minority though!
I agreeI know TDT and others feel differently, but the 981 GT4 to me felt like a rushed and unfinished project. The auto blip button getting a pre-existing "Sport" label is a prime example. How long would it have really taken to get a proper button made up?
A lot of people like that home-brew feel of the car but it wasn't for me. The engine is the soul of any car and I just found it rough.
I'm well aware I'm in the minority though!
TDT said:
Definitely agree… it would have been spectacular (as I emulated, if i say so myself, thanks Jay), but x51 was a 10-12k option on the 911… so then 981 would not be a new unproven market entrant @65k and would have needed to be 70-75k… Like 718 GT4 was introduced at 4 years later… with a proven market demand… therefore investment justified.
996.1 GT3… was new entrant… and basically a Carrera with Aero kit. Barely made more power than normal Carrera… had tiny brakes … but was all about the chassis.
When the business case and demand was proven… we can see the step change with the 996.2 GT3 and then again with the 996RS.
So it’s a familiar product development life cycle.
It depends how one wants to look at it I suppose. With x51 pricing at £75k - the 981 gt4 would still have been 25% cheaper than the 991.1gt3.... that would have been the comparable market rather than vs a 981 gts to my mind anyway and the demand for that, if anything would have been at least as firm as what ultimately turned out. 996.1 GT3… was new entrant… and basically a Carrera with Aero kit. Barely made more power than normal Carrera… had tiny brakes … but was all about the chassis.
When the business case and demand was proven… we can see the step change with the 996.2 GT3 and then again with the 996RS.
So it’s a familiar product development life cycle.
And I'd very much disagree the 996.1gt3 was anything like a 996c2 with powerkit. Engine for one was rather different and just a tad more costly to produce.......
A remap will take care of most of the curves down low.
Will take you to about 400hp with generally improved delivery overall.
Some shops like to change the throttle body out to a 82mm version and an IPD or 991 plenum to accommodate it.
Using the IPD or 991 plenum… it’s pretty straightforward and not that involved at all…. If you’re handy you ‘could’ do it yourself.
Changing the tb requires a remap, so that’s why some shops say just do both.
If you take the directions of the even bigger 718CS/991GT intake manifold that’s a bit more complex due to work spacing in the engine bay and the massive size of the parts.
After intake there is exhaust side… but then you’re into spending more money.
Will take you to about 400hp with generally improved delivery overall.
Some shops like to change the throttle body out to a 82mm version and an IPD or 991 plenum to accommodate it.
Using the IPD or 991 plenum… it’s pretty straightforward and not that involved at all…. If you’re handy you ‘could’ do it yourself.
Changing the tb requires a remap, so that’s why some shops say just do both.
If you take the directions of the even bigger 718CS/991GT intake manifold that’s a bit more complex due to work spacing in the engine bay and the massive size of the parts.
After intake there is exhaust side… but then you’re into spending more money.
Edited by TDT on Saturday 18th February 08:57
I think that Porsche positioned the 981GT4 very carefully.
It would have cost them almost nothing to give a little more geometry adjustment and solve the diabolical tyre shoulder wear on track.
From new it would have cost them far less than £10k to add the higher tune of the current 718 Clubsport ...
But they needed a cheaper na 6 pot for the run-out non turbo sports cars and they needed some volume to justify this modification of the existing standard 911 6 pot turbo engine ... so the GT4 volume was a massive help towards this.
Even now the GT4RS whilst it carries a lot of emotional pull is not a GT3 ... I understand the geometry options remain far more limited than the GT3 ? But all the new found GT4 owners are being prospectively talked up to GT4RS money ....
Clever stuff, if only they could maintain some enthusiast respect from some of their dealers ...
It would have cost them almost nothing to give a little more geometry adjustment and solve the diabolical tyre shoulder wear on track.
From new it would have cost them far less than £10k to add the higher tune of the current 718 Clubsport ...
But they needed a cheaper na 6 pot for the run-out non turbo sports cars and they needed some volume to justify this modification of the existing standard 911 6 pot turbo engine ... so the GT4 volume was a massive help towards this.
Even now the GT4RS whilst it carries a lot of emotional pull is not a GT3 ... I understand the geometry options remain far more limited than the GT3 ? But all the new found GT4 owners are being prospectively talked up to GT4RS money ....
Clever stuff, if only they could maintain some enthusiast respect from some of their dealers ...
I think it sounds amazing, possibly even better than it does in my Carrera S. it does have a longer exhaust which robbed it of some power, and I think most people make the assumption that it was “deliberately strangled” based on that alone.
Sounds like a remap could cure the dips, but other than that I wouldn’t change a thing about it. Especially knowing how quiet the 4.0 cars are.
Sounds like a remap could cure the dips, but other than that I wouldn’t change a thing about it. Especially knowing how quiet the 4.0 cars are.
Haribo Lecter said:
I think it sounds amazing, possibly even better than it does in my Carrera S. it does have a longer exhaust which robbed it of some power, and I think most people make the assumption that it was “deliberately strangled” based on that alone.
Sounds like a remap could cure the dips, but other than that I wouldn’t change a thing about it. Especially knowing how quiet the 4.0 cars are.
Not me, I thought it felt stangled to drive - nothing at all to do with specs on paper Sounds like a remap could cure the dips, but other than that I wouldn’t change a thing about it. Especially knowing how quiet the 4.0 cars are.
External sound isn't everything, on full chat both the 3.8 and 4.0 sound pretty good inside the cabin to me...
To be totally honest I find the GT4 and Spyder in both generations to be a great car let down by an average engine. The 981 is the worst of the pair, I liken it to a high performance diesel, lots of torque but it all tails off as the revs rise and it certainly does not inspire. The economy is dreadful as well. The 4.0L has a much nicer torque and power curve but still fails to stir the soul. The general drone and hum in the cabin is horrible, it’s no sports car. The Spyder with its additional bulkhead is a much better daily driver but unless you drive it like you stole it the entire time it’s back to a flat monotone drone out of the back at normal speeds, blame the PPF for that I guess.
Before I get shouted down by the GT4 fanboys my point of reference is my current V10 R8, which sounds sublime the entire time even when just pootling, along with lots of different GT3’s of all flavours. I never had any complaints about any of them. I have great hopes for the GT4RS, I really want that to sound and feel good at all speeds and restore my faith in Porsche fun cars.
Before I get shouted down by the GT4 fanboys my point of reference is my current V10 R8, which sounds sublime the entire time even when just pootling, along with lots of different GT3’s of all flavours. I never had any complaints about any of them. I have great hopes for the GT4RS, I really want that to sound and feel good at all speeds and restore my faith in Porsche fun cars.
bigmowley said:
To be totally honest I find the GT4 and Spyder in both generations to be a great car let down by an average engine. The 981 is the worst of the pair, I liken it to a high performance diesel, lots of torque but it all tails off as the revs rise and it certainly does not inspire. The economy is dreadful as well. The 4.0L has a much nicer torque and power curve but still fails to stir the soul. The general drone and hum in the cabin is horrible, it’s no sports car. The Spyder with its additional bulkhead is a much better daily driver but unless you drive it like you stole it the entire time it’s back to a flat monotone drone out of the back at normal speeds, blame the PPF for that I guess.
Before I get shouted down by the GT4 fanboys my point of reference is my current V10 R8, which sounds sublime the entire time even when just pootling, along with lots of different GT3’s of all flavours. I never had any complaints about any of them. I have great hopes for the GT4RS, I really want that to sound and feel good at all speeds and restore my faith in Porsche fun cars.
Its not a sports car, thats some statement. The GT4RS will have the same hum and drone in the car, likely to be just as loud or even louder I've heard.Before I get shouted down by the GT4 fanboys my point of reference is my current V10 R8, which sounds sublime the entire time even when just pootling, along with lots of different GT3’s of all flavours. I never had any complaints about any of them. I have great hopes for the GT4RS, I really want that to sound and feel good at all speeds and restore my faith in Porsche fun cars.
Your comparing a 65K car vs 130K cars remember. An R8 will do everything really well, but yet feel blunt, well the one I had did, front end felt very disconnected. GT3 is a step above the GT4 of expected to be better.
bigmowley said:
To be totally honest I find the GT4 and Spyder in both generations to be a great car let down by an average engine. The 981 is the worst of the pair, I liken it to a high performance diesel, lots of torque but it all tails off as the revs rise and it certainly does not inspire. The economy is dreadful as well. The 4.0L has a much nicer torque and power curve but still fails to stir the soul. The general drone and hum in the cabin is horrible, it’s no sports car. The Spyder with its additional bulkhead is a much better daily driver but unless you drive it like you stole it the entire time it’s back to a flat monotone drone out of the back at normal speeds, blame the PPF for that I guess.
Before I get shouted down by the GT4 fanboys my point of reference is my current V10 R8, which sounds sublime the entire time even when just pootling, along with lots of different GT3’s of all flavours. I never had any complaints about any of them. I have great hopes for the GT4RS, I really want that to sound and feel good at all speeds and restore my faith in Porsche fun cars.
The 718GT4 is very prone to drone between 2 and 2.8k no matter what exhaust it has. The OEM back box does the best job of masking it but its still there. The GT4 RS will be the same or even worse is my guess.Before I get shouted down by the GT4 fanboys my point of reference is my current V10 R8, which sounds sublime the entire time even when just pootling, along with lots of different GT3’s of all flavours. I never had any complaints about any of them. I have great hopes for the GT4RS, I really want that to sound and feel good at all speeds and restore my faith in Porsche fun cars.
Blame the drone on the shape of the body more than anything else. Its the GT4's biggest flaw for sure
JayK12 said:
bigmowley said:
To be totally honest I find the GT4 and Spyder in both generations to be a great car let down by an average engine. The 981 is the worst of the pair, I liken it to a high performance diesel, lots of torque but it all tails off as the revs rise and it certainly does not inspire. The economy is dreadful as well. The 4.0L has a much nicer torque and power curve but still fails to stir the soul. The general drone and hum in the cabin is horrible, it’s no sports car. The Spyder with its additional bulkhead is a much better daily driver but unless you drive it like you stole it the entire time it’s back to a flat monotone drone out of the back at normal speeds, blame the PPF for that I guess.
Before I get shouted down by the GT4 fanboys my point of reference is my current V10 R8, which sounds sublime the entire time even when just pootling, along with lots of different GT3’s of all flavours. I never had any complaints about any of them. I have great hopes for the GT4RS, I really want that to sound and feel good at all speeds and restore my faith in Porsche fun cars.
Its not a sports car, thats some statement. The GT4RS will have the same hum and drone in the car, likely to be just as loud or even louder I've heard.Before I get shouted down by the GT4 fanboys my point of reference is my current V10 R8, which sounds sublime the entire time even when just pootling, along with lots of different GT3’s of all flavours. I never had any complaints about any of them. I have great hopes for the GT4RS, I really want that to sound and feel good at all speeds and restore my faith in Porsche fun cars.
Your comparing a 65K car vs 130K cars remember. An R8 will do everything really well, but yet feel blunt, well the one I had did, front end felt very disconnected. GT3 is a step above the GT4 of expected to be better.
Gassing Station | Boxster/Cayman | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff