Condenser Rads
Discussion
I own a 718 Spyder, it is a Dec 2019 car that I bought in September 21, the car had 2500 miles on the clock when I bought it.
I took the car into my local OPC in July just before taking it to France as it had a high pitched whistle which I wanted checking out before taking the car abroad. The OPC came back and stated that the issue was the condenser radiators which were leaking due to debris in the bottom corners around the radiator. I was told that Porsche had recently notified all OPC's that Rads would not be covered by warranty going forward and I needed to find £1200 to replace the rads.
I asked my local OPC to raise a complaint with Porsche UK as in my opinion a car still under new car warranty and with correct OPC service history should be covered. The car at this time had covered just short of 10k miles and was 2.5 years old. My opinion was that the rads were not fit for purpose as they should not wear out (rot) in such a short time period / mileage. I pointed out that the Spyder is fitted with mesh covers so I as the owner could not clean out any debris that got through the mesh. The car had been serviced on time but it was not a service item to remove the PU and clean out around the Rads.
I maintained that the cost should be covered under warranty.
Porsche UK reviewed my complaint and came back with a percentage offer, which as I wanted the car to go on holiday I reluctantly accepted on the understanding I would pick this case up directly with Porsche UK on my return. I have since emailed Porsche UK and outlined my opinion and stated that the full cost should be covered as I as the owner cannot get at the debris to clean it out, therefore if it rots in such a short space of time it is not fit for purpose. Porsche have now responded saying they will not cover the full cost and that is their final decision, if I don't like it to take it to the Motor Ombudsman. This to me is not about the money as that resulted in being only a small amount but the principal, what is a warranty worth if Porsche can just take a view not to pay out when it suits them. Condenser Rads have been a Porsche problem for years and is a well known issue, I would have some sympathy if the car had open exposed rads, had done a reasonable mileage or was a few years old but in this instance I feel it is just wrong and if applied to me will have an impact going forward with a number of other owners who also have no alternative but to pay.
Am I being unreasonable ? Has anyone else had a similar response ? Does this also apply in the States ?
I have an excellent relationship with my OPC and they have been very helpful in trying to resolve this issue but their hands are tied and `I don't expect the OPC to foot the bill. I bought my first Porsche in 2005 and this car is my 13th so I think I can consider myself an enthusiast of the brand.
I love the cars but think Porsche UK's stance is unreasonable.
Unfortunately, they've failed due to an external influence (debris) not a faulty part. From Porsche's perspective it is justifiable to refuse a claim on this basis. In the past I believe Porsche have covered these claims but it seems they're getting more strict on the exact details of the warranty cover.
Anecdotally, this seems to tie-in with what seems to be a more profit based approach I'm seeing from Porsche of late. A sign of the times I guess.
Anecdotally, this seems to tie-in with what seems to be a more profit based approach I'm seeing from Porsche of late. A sign of the times I guess.
Twinfan said:
Unfortunately, they've failed due to an external influence (debris) not a faulty part. From Porsche's perspective it is justifiable to refuse a claim on this basis. In the past I believe Porsche have covered these claims but it seems they're getting more strict on the exact details of the warranty cover.
Anecdotally, this seems to tie-in with what seems to be a more profit based approach I'm seeing from Porsche of late. A sign of the times I guess.
While I don't disagree with your point Dave what can I do to ensure my rads don't fail in the first 3 years ? or should Porsche reposition the rads to avoid the close proximity to the corner of the PU or maybe even manufacture the rads from thicker material. If I'm contributing to the problem I'll contribute to the cost. Anecdotally, this seems to tie-in with what seems to be a more profit based approach I'm seeing from Porsche of late. A sign of the times I guess.
Maybe all cars with mesh covered rads should be garage queens ?
If Porsche are indicating that the area needs to be kept clear of debris then the grilles fitted need allow a normally competent user to do this, without recourse to the tool box or visiting an OPC to be charged for the pleasure.
Similarly they seem happy to blame debris for puncturing the condensers on models not fitted with the grilles.
They need to resolve this ongoing issue which has been widely reported.
So, as you may have guessed, I don't think you are being unreasonable.
Similarly they seem happy to blame debris for puncturing the condensers on models not fitted with the grilles.
They need to resolve this ongoing issue which has been widely reported.
So, as you may have guessed, I don't think you are being unreasonable.
Geoff39GL said:
Twinfan said:
Unfortunately, they've failed due to an external influence (debris) not a faulty part. From Porsche's perspective it is justifiable to refuse a claim on this basis. In the past I believe Porsche have covered these claims but it seems they're getting more strict on the exact details of the warranty cover.
Anecdotally, this seems to tie-in with what seems to be a more profit based approach I'm seeing from Porsche of late. A sign of the times I guess.
While I don't disagree with your point Dave what can I do to ensure my rads don't fail in the first 3 years ? or should Porsche reposition the rads to avoid the close proximity to the corner of the PU or maybe even manufacture the rads from thicker material. If I'm contributing to the problem I'll contribute to the cost. Anecdotally, this seems to tie-in with what seems to be a more profit based approach I'm seeing from Porsche of late. A sign of the times I guess.
Maybe all cars with mesh covered rads should be garage queens ?
Front bumper removal and clean out + waxoil refit takes all in a hour .
Learn to do it .Plenty of u tube vids .
While “ in there “ waxoil the front cross over pipes joints .You can see them once the front wheel well liners are out .Grease all the fixings .
Save your grief .Treat it as a Sunday hobby hands on thingy.
Learn to do it .Plenty of u tube vids .
While “ in there “ waxoil the front cross over pipes joints .You can see them once the front wheel well liners are out .Grease all the fixings .
Save your grief .Treat it as a Sunday hobby hands on thingy.
Fiammetta said:
Front bumper removal and clean out + waxoil refit takes all in a hour .
Learn to do it .Plenty of u tube vids .
While “ in there “ waxoil the front cross over pipes joints .You can see them once the front wheel well liners are out .Grease all the fixings .
Save your grief .Treat it as a Sunday hobby hands on thingy.
You really think that is a reasonable expectation for all owners of GT cars ?Learn to do it .Plenty of u tube vids .
While “ in there “ waxoil the front cross over pipes joints .You can see them once the front wheel well liners are out .Grease all the fixings .
Save your grief .Treat it as a Sunday hobby hands on thingy.
Geoff39GL said:
Fiammetta said:
Front bumper removal and clean out + waxoil refit takes all in a hour .
Learn to do it .Plenty of u tube vids .
While “ in there “ waxoil the front cross over pipes joints .You can see them once the front wheel well liners are out .Grease all the fixings .
Save your grief .Treat it as a Sunday hobby hands on thingy.
You really think that is a reasonable expectation for all owners of GT cars ?Learn to do it .Plenty of u tube vids .
While “ in there “ waxoil the front cross over pipes joints .You can see them once the front wheel well liners are out .Grease all the fixings .
Save your grief .Treat it as a Sunday hobby hands on thingy.
Don’t be that guy who does sod all them comes on here to whinge about a entirely preventable issue .
As an owner you are required to have the car service by an authorised agent to maintain the warranty.
This service schedule is designed to ensure the vehicle survives a full life ... which for a car is many times the duration of the warranty.
If Porsche insist that the rads require periodic cleaning out to avoid corrosion, why is this not included in their stated service regime ?
Since the car has a full OPC service history and it is within warranty, why not take it to the Ombudsman ?
Within the EU if a product is found to have a known issue, the warranty on that issue is extended to five years .... making a fuss of this could set the ball rolling on a more comprehensive outcome than they imagine ??
My 2p ....
This service schedule is designed to ensure the vehicle survives a full life ... which for a car is many times the duration of the warranty.
If Porsche insist that the rads require periodic cleaning out to avoid corrosion, why is this not included in their stated service regime ?
Since the car has a full OPC service history and it is within warranty, why not take it to the Ombudsman ?
Within the EU if a product is found to have a known issue, the warranty on that issue is extended to five years .... making a fuss of this could set the ball rolling on a more comprehensive outcome than they imagine ??
My 2p ....
Fiammetta said:
Geoff39GL said:
Fiammetta said:
Front bumper removal and clean out + waxoil refit takes all in a hour .
Learn to do it .Plenty of u tube vids .
While “ in there “ waxoil the front cross over pipes joints .You can see them once the front wheel well liners are out .Grease all the fixings .
Save your grief .Treat it as a Sunday hobby hands on thingy.
You really think that is a reasonable expectation for all owners of GT cars ?Learn to do it .Plenty of u tube vids .
While “ in there “ waxoil the front cross over pipes joints .You can see them once the front wheel well liners are out .Grease all the fixings .
Save your grief .Treat it as a Sunday hobby hands on thingy.
Don’t be that guy who does sod all them comes on here to whinge about a entirely preventable issue .
ChrisW. said:
As an owner you are required to have the car service by an authorised agent to maintain the warranty.
This service schedule is designed to ensure the vehicle survives a full life ... which for a car is many times the duration of the warranty.
If Porsche insist that the rads require periodic cleaning out to avoid corrosion, why is this not included in their stated service regime ?
Since the car has a full OPC service history and it is within warranty, why not take it to the Ombudsman ?
Within the EU if a product is found to have a known issue, the warranty on that issue is extended to five years .... making a fuss of this could set the ball rolling on a more comprehensive outcome than they imagine ??
My 2p ....
Thanks ChrisThis service schedule is designed to ensure the vehicle survives a full life ... which for a car is many times the duration of the warranty.
If Porsche insist that the rads require periodic cleaning out to avoid corrosion, why is this not included in their stated service regime ?
Since the car has a full OPC service history and it is within warranty, why not take it to the Ombudsman ?
Within the EU if a product is found to have a known issue, the warranty on that issue is extended to five years .... making a fuss of this could set the ball rolling on a more comprehensive outcome than they imagine ??
My 2p ....
I might just try the Ombudsman and at least establish his position regarding influence on manufacturers.
I have a few mixed feelings as I don't want to upset the relationship with my OPC and its not about the money as I've only ended up paying out £300 but the principal of warranty and the ends an owner can reasonably be expected to go to in looking after his motor car. In my view removing body panels is outside of reasonable.
The bumper is designed to come off real easy and further more re locate exactly.It’s got quite clever locating tabs and clips .
I tend to remove mine every 2 yrs .
A similar issue in terms of warranty repairs etc exists for a lot of cars .Ever increasing complexity increases the risks .Take the roof drains on pan roofed Macan ….another grey area of who should clean them , or owner does nothing expecting OPC to pick up the tab .Some do some don’t .
If you do it clean them and regularly check patency then it never becomes an issue , but it doesn’t stop folks making threads .
So what’s the bottom line with Porsche rear engines AC condensers .
They are a consumable item , outside the std body corrosion warranty.
As are your coolant pipes , they start to weep past the O rings .O ring rubber looses its shape and seal like all rubber .Also water ingress externally twixt the joint and fixing clip .Do nought and wait for a leak ….it’s gonna happen or proactively wax them to protect the metal collar .
The AC condensers are fitted about 1 cm in front of the main cooling ( engine ) rads there’s a gap .
They have a cowl to direct on coming air through.Ie no escape route .This means leaves and debris eventually accumulates , starting at the bottom then gradually filling the gap between the two .You can eye ball the lower corner debris but not what’s festering in between .
Bumper off you can get i between and clean out .
It’s the ONLY way .
It’s not difficult.
Extends the life of the components that’s are destined to fail and drop into serviceable item .
U.K. is not in the EU , so not sure how far the guy suggesting take it to the EU to warrant it for 5 yrs would get .
As said by the time you have finished composing emails wasting your life bickering with officialdom , just whip the bumper off - job done .Your AC condensers and front x pipes ( if you are bothered ) will last longer lavished with attention .
Or ask an Indy to do it .You can’t tell they have been off such is the clever design, that’s a compliment to Porsche .
Or ask the OPC “ is there anything else that needs doing / cleaning “ at its service .
Eg the roof drains on a Pan roofed Macan , or the gap between the AC rads and main rads on rear engined cars .
I guess a lot on here are on “ monthlies “ so as long as it makes the end of the contract you are not bothered , just after that stamp and N rated tyres .
You roll the dice .
I tend to remove mine every 2 yrs .
A similar issue in terms of warranty repairs etc exists for a lot of cars .Ever increasing complexity increases the risks .Take the roof drains on pan roofed Macan ….another grey area of who should clean them , or owner does nothing expecting OPC to pick up the tab .Some do some don’t .
If you do it clean them and regularly check patency then it never becomes an issue , but it doesn’t stop folks making threads .
So what’s the bottom line with Porsche rear engines AC condensers .
They are a consumable item , outside the std body corrosion warranty.
As are your coolant pipes , they start to weep past the O rings .O ring rubber looses its shape and seal like all rubber .Also water ingress externally twixt the joint and fixing clip .Do nought and wait for a leak ….it’s gonna happen or proactively wax them to protect the metal collar .
The AC condensers are fitted about 1 cm in front of the main cooling ( engine ) rads there’s a gap .
They have a cowl to direct on coming air through.Ie no escape route .This means leaves and debris eventually accumulates , starting at the bottom then gradually filling the gap between the two .You can eye ball the lower corner debris but not what’s festering in between .
Bumper off you can get i between and clean out .
It’s the ONLY way .
It’s not difficult.
Extends the life of the components that’s are destined to fail and drop into serviceable item .
U.K. is not in the EU , so not sure how far the guy suggesting take it to the EU to warrant it for 5 yrs would get .
As said by the time you have finished composing emails wasting your life bickering with officialdom , just whip the bumper off - job done .Your AC condensers and front x pipes ( if you are bothered ) will last longer lavished with attention .
Or ask an Indy to do it .You can’t tell they have been off such is the clever design, that’s a compliment to Porsche .
Or ask the OPC “ is there anything else that needs doing / cleaning “ at its service .
Eg the roof drains on a Pan roofed Macan , or the gap between the AC rads and main rads on rear engined cars .
I guess a lot on here are on “ monthlies “ so as long as it makes the end of the contract you are not bothered , just after that stamp and N rated tyres .
You roll the dice .
Fiammetta said:
I guess a lot on here are on “ monthlies “ so as long as it makes the end of the contract you are not bothered , just after that stamp and N rated tyres .
You roll the dice .
And what has that to do with whether a product is fit for purpose or not? That's a very dismissive and presumptious way to look at things.You roll the dice .
For what it's worth, my Spyder is owned outright, bought with cash and I have no plans to ever sell it. I can't be bothered spending my weekends lying on my back doing maintenance - I bought a new car as I wanted to drive it, not tinker with it. I have other cars I tinker with but I didn't want that with this one.
Either the cleaning should be done at each service or it's a warranty item IMO
Unfortunately I think most people are looking at it from a practical and subjective point of view, not a letter of the law point of view. Warranties cover failure of parts due to defects. A warranty won't cover a condensor that has rotted due to debris sitting against it. The design of the front bumper is the issue in that you can't easily clean them out. It's like a stone chip that left alone causes the body to rust. The issue wouldn't have occurred without the stone chip, and it's the same with the debris.
Porsche have been generous in covering a lot of the cost which they potentially didn't have to do. Personally, I'd take that as a win and move on.
Porsche have been generous in covering a lot of the cost which they potentially didn't have to do. Personally, I'd take that as a win and move on.
Twinfan said:
Unfortunately I think most people are looking at it from a practical and subjective point of view, not a letter of the law point of view. Warranties cover failure of parts due to defects. A warranty won't cover a condensor that has rotted due to debris sitting against it. The design of the front bumper is the issue in that you can't easily clean them out. It's like a stone chip that left alone causes the body to rust. The issue wouldn't have occurred without the stone chip, and it's the same with the debris.
Porsche have been generous in covering a lot of the cost which they potentially didn't have to do. Personally, I'd take that as a win and move on.
I agree with your letter of the law point of view but disagree with your stone chip analogy. I can get access to the stone chip and easily touch it up, it is reasonable to expect me to do something about it. I cannot get at the rads and really cannot see the corners to even know if there is debris around the corners of the rads. in my opinion it is not reasonable to expect me to be responsible, I maintain in reality the design is not fit for purpose. It should be quite easy to resolve either make the grilles removable, change the position of the rads or make cleaning out a service item.Porsche have been generous in covering a lot of the cost which they potentially didn't have to do. Personally, I'd take that as a win and move on.
Getting worked up about this is not going to do me any good, if I upset Porsche GB there will only be 1 loser, I have a great relationship with my OPC, I have one car on order and am looking at placing another order if / when I can get a slot. BUT right is right and wrong is wrong and rejecting a claim in these circumstances I feel is wrong. Nothing to do with the money as I have had a good allowance but maintain it should not be a cost to me for something outside my reasonable control on a nearly new car
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