Will water cooled Turbos bottom out and appreciate?
Discussion
I am a water cooled Turbo fan, having owned a 996 Turbo and 996 Turbo S and enjoyed driving their successors.
I have been following 997 Turbo and Turbo S prices for a year or so. I had expected asking prices for good 997.2 Turbo Ss to rise a little, as they are effectively run out specials, and also gen 1.5 Turbos. But from what I see, they are following a gentle depreciation like all other water cooled Turbos a few years or more old.
I bought my 996 Turbo S, manual with very low miles, for £70k in 2015 and sold it in 2019 for around £62k. This pattern seems to be continuing.
I realise there is also the important element of the value of money, and that £100k in 2014 is worth £154k now, which is alarming, as well as the slip in nominal values.
In any case, does anyone see a scenario in which water cooled Turbos follow air cooled in an upward nominal value? I realise good 996 Turbos have probably cratered out.
I have been following 997 Turbo and Turbo S prices for a year or so. I had expected asking prices for good 997.2 Turbo Ss to rise a little, as they are effectively run out specials, and also gen 1.5 Turbos. But from what I see, they are following a gentle depreciation like all other water cooled Turbos a few years or more old.
I bought my 996 Turbo S, manual with very low miles, for £70k in 2015 and sold it in 2019 for around £62k. This pattern seems to be continuing.
I realise there is also the important element of the value of money, and that £100k in 2014 is worth £154k now, which is alarming, as well as the slip in nominal values.
In any case, does anyone see a scenario in which water cooled Turbos follow air cooled in an upward nominal value? I realise good 996 Turbos have probably cratered out.
I thought 997.1 turbos had the last of the Mezger engines.
I suspect the production numbers (though I have no idea what they are!) preclude 996/997/991 cars coming up to the values of 993 cars.
Having had a 996 turbo and a 991 turbo S, the latter is streets ahead in every department. But I doubt that that will mean anything when it comes to depreciation bottoming out/appreciation.
I suspect the production numbers (though I have no idea what they are!) preclude 996/997/991 cars coming up to the values of 993 cars.
Having had a 996 turbo and a 991 turbo S, the latter is streets ahead in every department. But I doubt that that will mean anything when it comes to depreciation bottoming out/appreciation.
BlackTails said:
I thought 997.1 turbos had the last of the Mezger engines.
Not sure but I'm referring to manuals. The latter stuff was pdk I think, or at least very scarce. The 991 will be streets ahead in terms of performance, but how fast does one want to go?
Is it more refined? Probably but that's not a critical ingredient personally speaking.
Its a tough act to follow the 930, 964 and 993 turbo. They're from a by gone era in terms of manufacturing where bean counters were irrelvant and engineers decided on how to build the 911 money no object.
The watercooled era the complete opposite and this really shows on the 996 interior. I think models like the gen 1.5 997 turbo and gen 2 997.2 turbo manual may appreciate one day though. So will 996 turbo s you should have kept I love them. But a watercooled turbo really needs to be sub 10k mile timewarp examples so you can not really drive them if you are looking at capital appreciation which is a bit sad.
I think a Mac 12c maybe a better investment as you see them sell for circa £55k to 65k on auction sites which is incredible value for a supercar that cost approaching £300k in 2011/12.
All crystal ball gazing they could be worth nothing if Labour go mad and ban ICE cars. They hate cars.
The watercooled era the complete opposite and this really shows on the 996 interior. I think models like the gen 1.5 997 turbo and gen 2 997.2 turbo manual may appreciate one day though. So will 996 turbo s you should have kept I love them. But a watercooled turbo really needs to be sub 10k mile timewarp examples so you can not really drive them if you are looking at capital appreciation which is a bit sad.
I think a Mac 12c maybe a better investment as you see them sell for circa £55k to 65k on auction sites which is incredible value for a supercar that cost approaching £300k in 2011/12.
All crystal ball gazing they could be worth nothing if Labour go mad and ban ICE cars. They hate cars.
IMI A said:
Its a tough act to follow the 930, 964 and 993 turbo. They're from a by gone era in terms of manufacturing where bean counters were irrelvant and engineers decided on how to build the 911 money no object.
The watercooled era the complete opposite and this really shows on the 996 interior. I think models like the gen 1.5 997 turbo and gen 2 997.2 turbo manual may appreciate one day though. So will 996 turbo s you should have kept I love them. But a watercooled turbo really needs to be sub 10k mile timewarp examples so you can not really drive them if you are looking at capital appreciation which is a bit sad.
I think a Mac 12c maybe a better investment as you see them sell for circa £55k to 65k on auction sites which is incredible value for a supercar that cost approaching £300k in 2011/12.
....
Pretty much spot on from might point of view aswell..The watercooled era the complete opposite and this really shows on the 996 interior. I think models like the gen 1.5 997 turbo and gen 2 997.2 turbo manual may appreciate one day though. So will 996 turbo s you should have kept I love them. But a watercooled turbo really needs to be sub 10k mile timewarp examples so you can not really drive them if you are looking at capital appreciation which is a bit sad.
I think a Mac 12c maybe a better investment as you see them sell for circa £55k to 65k on auction sites which is incredible value for a supercar that cost approaching £300k in 2011/12.
....
I've had most of the older turbos, 993 def. my favourite, but the 997 Turbo with a manual is a great car to own and use without having to worry too much about residuals, especially if you keep it for a good few years.
Anyone who's looking at these, get one now and use it before they start to properly appreciate !
If I was buying a water cooled turbo for myself today I'd probably buy a used mint 991 turbo s from an OPC. Its peak 911 turbo. The build quality and materials are a step above the 996/997 especially the gen 2 991 turbo s which at improved engine components and materials over gen1. They go like a stabbed rat the PDK being miles better than in 997 turbo. Miles quicker than Porsche claim too just like all the turbo gens. Steering far more precise and direct than 997 too.
Let be realistic. 991.1, 991.2 and 992 turbos will never appreciate to any degree, they are likely to continue depreciating and then settle at some point. They are big, fast cars but aren’t special enough in any way and you can get similar performance in an EV Hyundai so their USP naturally is now diminished.
996 Turbo manuals again I don’t think will gain much more value than they have today. Not great to drive and high maintenance cost and 996 (unfair) poor reputation for styling and reliability, despite being Mezger.
996 tiptronics with old merc gearbox are poor and will always be the cheapest entry point into a Turbo and won’t see any increase.
Important distinction needs to be made between 997 generations. 997.1 manual Turbo is the one to watch, this is the ultimate water cooled turbo, is already a classic and is likely to appreciate. Prices seem to have stalled but long term surely only going one way. Based on looks, shape, size, mezger, manual gearbox, driving.
On the other hand I would avoid 997.2 Turbo/Turbo S. Don’t fall into the trap of thinking values will rise as they are last of the 997 and they will mirror the popularity of 997.2 Carreras. The 997.2 DFi Turbos are unbelievably rapid but not much fun to drive, engine and exhaust note is characterless and it’s ultimately a disappointing and one dimensional driving experience. The 1st gen PDK gearbox now feels very slow even in sport plus mode with Chrono. The manual mezger 1st gen so much more rewarding than the jet fighter feel of the 997.2.
996 Turbo manuals again I don’t think will gain much more value than they have today. Not great to drive and high maintenance cost and 996 (unfair) poor reputation for styling and reliability, despite being Mezger.
996 tiptronics with old merc gearbox are poor and will always be the cheapest entry point into a Turbo and won’t see any increase.
Important distinction needs to be made between 997 generations. 997.1 manual Turbo is the one to watch, this is the ultimate water cooled turbo, is already a classic and is likely to appreciate. Prices seem to have stalled but long term surely only going one way. Based on looks, shape, size, mezger, manual gearbox, driving.
On the other hand I would avoid 997.2 Turbo/Turbo S. Don’t fall into the trap of thinking values will rise as they are last of the 997 and they will mirror the popularity of 997.2 Carreras. The 997.2 DFi Turbos are unbelievably rapid but not much fun to drive, engine and exhaust note is characterless and it’s ultimately a disappointing and one dimensional driving experience. The 1st gen PDK gearbox now feels very slow even in sport plus mode with Chrono. The manual mezger 1st gen so much more rewarding than the jet fighter feel of the 997.2.
Mezgerking said:
Let be realistic. 991.1, 991.2 and 992 turbos will never appreciate to any degree, they are likely to continue depreciating and then settle at some point. They are big, fast cars but aren’t special enough in any way and you can get similar performance in an EV Hyundai so their USP naturally is now diminished.
996 Turbo manuals again I don’t think will gain much more value than they have today. Not great to drive and high maintenance cost and 996 (unfair) poor reputation for styling and reliability, despite being Mezger.
996 tiptronics with old merc gearbox are poor and will always be the cheapest entry point into a Turbo and won’t see any increase.
Important distinction needs to be made between 997 generations. 997.1 manual Turbo is the one to watch, this is the ultimate water cooled turbo, is already a classic and is likely to appreciate. Prices seem to have stalled but long term surely only going one way. Based on looks, shape, size, mezger, manual gearbox, driving.
On the other hand I would avoid 997.2 Turbo/Turbo S. Don’t fall into the trap of thinking values will rise as they are last of the 997 and they will mirror the popularity of 997.2 Carreras. The 997.2 DFi Turbos are unbelievably rapid but not much fun to drive, engine and exhaust note is characterless and it’s ultimately a disappointing and one dimensional driving experience. The 1st gen PDK gearbox now feels very slow even in sport plus mode with Chrono. The manual mezger 1st gen so much more rewarding than the jet fighter feel of the 997.2.
I'd agree with most of this but I think you'd have to own a very low mileage, mint example or maybe a rare PTS 997.1 Turbo manual to have any meaningful appreciation in value. There are simply loads of them out there. I think the best you can hope for is to get your money back over a 10 year ownership, or for any appreciation to offset the running costs (unless something goes wrong with it of course because nothing is cheap and there are two of everything).996 Turbo manuals again I don’t think will gain much more value than they have today. Not great to drive and high maintenance cost and 996 (unfair) poor reputation for styling and reliability, despite being Mezger.
996 tiptronics with old merc gearbox are poor and will always be the cheapest entry point into a Turbo and won’t see any increase.
Important distinction needs to be made between 997 generations. 997.1 manual Turbo is the one to watch, this is the ultimate water cooled turbo, is already a classic and is likely to appreciate. Prices seem to have stalled but long term surely only going one way. Based on looks, shape, size, mezger, manual gearbox, driving.
On the other hand I would avoid 997.2 Turbo/Turbo S. Don’t fall into the trap of thinking values will rise as they are last of the 997 and they will mirror the popularity of 997.2 Carreras. The 997.2 DFi Turbos are unbelievably rapid but not much fun to drive, engine and exhaust note is characterless and it’s ultimately a disappointing and one dimensional driving experience. The 1st gen PDK gearbox now feels very slow even in sport plus mode with Chrono. The manual mezger 1st gen so much more rewarding than the jet fighter feel of the 997.2.
Prices of 997.2 Turbo S are bonkers really. As are prices of the mythical 997.1.5, which is basically just a 997.1 with an updated PCM system.
ImbackYo said:
Not sure but I'm referring to manuals. The latter stuff was pdk I think, or at least very scarce.
The 991 will be streets ahead in terms of performance, but how fast does one want to go?
Is it more refined? Probably but that's not a critical ingredient personally speaking.
The 991 will be streets ahead in terms of performance, but how fast does one want to go?
Is it more refined? Probably but that's not a critical ingredient personally speaking.
no clue about values, but I keep seeing a black/black 996 Turbo parked around the corner from my place and every time I walk past, I think that would be a nice daily driver to have. As I get older, I just think it would be nice to have a reasonably quick manual car with 4wd to use year-round including going snowboarding etc. and I love the 996 interior, think it is much nicer than 997.
there is a special place in my heart for manual cars and 420hp is more than enough for me, do not like going really fast anymore anyway (the whole do not want to "accidentally" die aspect of it...)
there is a special place in my heart for manual cars and 420hp is more than enough for me, do not like going really fast anymore anyway (the whole do not want to "accidentally" die aspect of it...)
80sMatchbox said:
And what's your view on the Tories love of motoring?
Do you think that there's a chance that Labour will "ban all ice cars"?
all new yes. Labour pledges to reinstate 2030 ban on new petrol and diesel cars - stating that this would provide ‘certainty to manufacturers'. Of late Germany and Italy are having doubts about 2035 (let alone 2030 for UK) but Von der Leyen vows to stick to 2035 ban. Do you think that there's a chance that Labour will "ban all ice cars"?
As to existing, I suspect Labour will put in punitive measures by keeping an ICE car on the road. I can see the pending year ban being a key factor in the 2029 election.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/labour-rishi...
Edited by KittyLitter on Wednesday 11th September 22:50
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