Early signs of bore scoring- what happened after?
Discussion
On a borescope my friend's car (he is in his early 70s and not really an internet user) has signs of early scoring in cylinder 6. Its a 997.1 C2S. He had asked for it to be checked during a plug change.
Running well, needing no oil top ups between changes (approx 3000 miles). No external signs etc.
Has anyone had a car like this that has run well long term and not had things progress? Or when scoring starts is progression a certainty?
Thanks
Running well, needing no oil top ups between changes (approx 3000 miles). No external signs etc.
Has anyone had a car like this that has run well long term and not had things progress? Or when scoring starts is progression a certainty?
Thanks
I dont have an answer to your friends findings however if faced with the same situation I’d just run it till the oil usage becomes untenable. If he’s only doing 3000-5000 miles a year that could be a long time.
Perhaps consider oil analysis and changing more frequently so any debris removed sooner.
The other thing to do is take advice from a good independant specialist - having read lots of IMS horror stories I spoke to my indy (GCR central) who said if there are no signs of a problem leave well alone. As it happens, when fixing an oil leak he found mine had more play than was acceptable so it was changed.
Perhaps consider oil analysis and changing more frequently so any debris removed sooner.
The other thing to do is take advice from a good independant specialist - having read lots of IMS horror stories I spoke to my indy (GCR central) who said if there are no signs of a problem leave well alone. As it happens, when fixing an oil leak he found mine had more play than was acceptable so it was changed.
Well, mine went from brand new engine to being replaced under new car warranty due to excess oil consumption and sooting within 7500 miles and 18 months of leaving the factory. Scoring in 5 and 6.
My second one was picked up at 65k during a pre-emptive conversion to 4.1 so no idea how long that would have gone on.
My second one was picked up at 65k during a pre-emptive conversion to 4.1 so no idea how long that would have gone on.
The internet scare stories are real I'm afraid. These engines are one of the most delicate ever produced and sadly the bore-scoring is likely to get worse.
On the positive side, given the fella doesn't do many miles, it'll either a) be long gone and someone elses problem or b) not manifest into catastrophic failure for a few years yet
On the positive side, given the fella doesn't do many miles, it'll either a) be long gone and someone elses problem or b) not manifest into catastrophic failure for a few years yet
The sensible thing to do would be sell it now. Ideally px it or We Buy Any Car. I have no idea how a dealer would value a car like this without a thorough inspection for bore score. Maybe if he really is 70 then it's an advantage as no one would assume the old boy is pulling a fast one.
Does bore score manifest as progressively more oil consumption, or does it go from no signs to catastrophic failure?
I guess OP if the answer to this is progressive, I would live with it doing only small miles per year and know I would have opportunity to address it if oil consumption became high.
I guess OP if the answer to this is progressive, I would live with it doing only small miles per year and know I would have opportunity to address it if oil consumption became high.
When the dreaded bore scored I bit the bullet and had a rebuild. At the end of the day i have a great car which is future proofed. I much prefer it to my 991 and it cost the same as a 3 year old Kia hatchback to fix. Should see me out now.
people pay 40 grand for a hot golf and swallow 15k in depreciation without moaning.
people pay 40 grand for a hot golf and swallow 15k in depreciation without moaning.
If bore score doesn’t result in catastrophic failure which I don’t believe it does, the OPs mate has the option to keep driving and enjoying the car until it either starts using oil and becomes annoying, or starts making a ticking noise that impairs the enjoyment of the car, both of which may not happen while he owns it. At my age and expected ownership length I’d get it rebuilt by Hartech but that’s not necessarily the right decision for everyone’s circumstances.
magic Monkey Dust said:
When the dreaded bore scored I bit the bullet and had a rebuild. At the end of the day i have a great car which is future proofed. I much prefer it to my 991 and it cost the same as a 3 year old Kia hatchback to fix. Should see me out now.
people pay 40 grand for a hot golf and swallow 15k in depreciation without moaning.
Exactly what I did - along with an oversize to 4.1, new cats, exhaust, engine mounts, oil cooler, water and oil pump, suspension, coolant pipes etc etc.people pay 40 grand for a hot golf and swallow 15k in depreciation without moaning.
Cost me a fortune but we love the car. It was always going to be a keeper and, 16 years in, it now drives like new.
bluetigerandy said:
On a borescope my friend's car (he is in his early 70s and not really an internet user) has signs of early scoring in cylinder 6. Its a 997.1 C2S. He had asked for it to be checked during a plug change.
Running well, needing no oil top ups between changes (approx 3000 miles). No external signs etc.
Has anyone had a car like this that has run well long term and not had things progress? Or when scoring starts is progression a certainty?
Thanks
I’ve done a borescope inspection on a 2008 Cayman 987 S 3.4. Minor score marks on cylinder 6. 6,000 miles and 12 months later and did another inspection. Compared images and it wasn’t noticeably worse. Oil consumption was below the normal stated value in the handbook, and there was no evidence of engine noise or piston slap at hot idle. I did an oil analysis both times, and metal content was just above the maximum threshold Running well, needing no oil top ups between changes (approx 3000 miles). No external signs etc.
Has anyone had a car like this that has run well long term and not had things progress? Or when scoring starts is progression a certainty?
Thanks
IREvans said:
I’ve done a borescope inspection on a 2008 Cayman 987 S 3.4. Minor score marks on cylinder 6. 6,000 miles and 12 months later and did another inspection. Compared images and it wasn’t noticeably worse. Oil consumption was below the normal stated value in the handbook, and there was no evidence of engine noise or piston slap at hot idle. I did an oil analysis both times, and metal content was just above the maximum threshold
Some really helpful replies here so thank you everyone- but especially IREvans- I think this is exactly the sort of experience he was looking for. Please keep the thoughts coming.anonymous said:
[redacted]
9A1 failure rate is a tiny fraction of M97 failure rate. Not remotely comparable. People forget that the early 9x7.2 cars are now nearly 15 years old (first 997.2 were late 2008). With 9x7.1 cars, they were chucking in new engines at scale under warranty from the get go.When you have Hartech having to post online repeatedly because they can't find a borked one to do their development work, you know they aren't going pop with much frequency:
http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?p=1644727
For the OP, think it's fair to say scoring can progress at different rates. Some can go 10s of thousands of miles slow getting worse, others can go from first signs of increasing oil consumption to knacker in well under 10k miles.
I think anecdotally it seems like the ones that fail at lower miles are the ones that fail fast.
johnny senna said:
And how come they’re more expensive to fix / rebuild than 997.1 engines?
Because no one is doing it. With the m97 (from the 9x7 cars) there is a larger network of shops rebuilding these and using various different replacement liners which are of course being manufactured by another network of manufacturers. With the newer engine this network does not exist as it is either not required or not required yet.in the video's they speak of, watch out for to rich fuel (to much or how you say that) = wash away oil film
wrong cheap fuel = not good, only 98+ best stuf use!
many 'porsche' drivers seem to use the cheaper or 95+ octane or lower? or bio fuel, just stop that! lol, thats bad! and you are fooling yourself, cheap = using more fuel and more damage to your engine = way more expensive then you think you can save.
and use good engine oil, so you can use a second hand Porsche from say 4 other owners each choosing their own fuel, maybe the first one asked the dealer, or looked in the book, yes you can use bio added fuel... or Ron92/95? or with 10% bio? and used that for years, by the time another Porsche lover buys such Porsche it can already have the first signs, or just not... so best to use proper fuel, only the best and make sure the engine is properly adjusted, not running too rich, to avoid bore wash.
so you can postpone the major damage, some can drive many more miles with the right treatment I guess.
wrong cheap fuel = not good, only 98+ best stuf use!
many 'porsche' drivers seem to use the cheaper or 95+ octane or lower? or bio fuel, just stop that! lol, thats bad! and you are fooling yourself, cheap = using more fuel and more damage to your engine = way more expensive then you think you can save.
and use good engine oil, so you can use a second hand Porsche from say 4 other owners each choosing their own fuel, maybe the first one asked the dealer, or looked in the book, yes you can use bio added fuel... or Ron92/95? or with 10% bio? and used that for years, by the time another Porsche lover buys such Porsche it can already have the first signs, or just not... so best to use proper fuel, only the best and make sure the engine is properly adjusted, not running too rich, to avoid bore wash.
so you can postpone the major damage, some can drive many more miles with the right treatment I guess.
GTRene said:
in the video's they speak of, watch out for to rich fuel (to much or how you say that) = wash away oil film
wrong cheap fuel = not good, only 98+ best stuf use!
many 'porsche' drivers seem to use the cheaper or 95+ octane or lower? or bio fuel, just stop that! lol, thats bad! and you are fooling yourself, cheap = using more fuel and more damage to your engine = way more expensive then you think you can save.
and use good engine oil, so you can use a second hand Porsche from say 4 other owners each choosing their own fuel, maybe the first one asked the dealer, or looked in the book, yes you can use bio added fuel... or Ron92/95? or with 10% bio? and used that for years, by the time another Porsche lover buys such Porsche it can already have the first signs, or just not... so best to use proper fuel, only the best and make sure the engine is properly adjusted, not running too rich, to avoid bore wash.
so you can postpone the major damage, some can drive many more miles with the right treatment I guess.
Both may help. But it's a design / manufacturing flaw. Our first 997 was still on its factory oil, was only filled up with good fuel and run in and driven carefully and it needed a new engine at 7,500 miles.wrong cheap fuel = not good, only 98+ best stuf use!
many 'porsche' drivers seem to use the cheaper or 95+ octane or lower? or bio fuel, just stop that! lol, thats bad! and you are fooling yourself, cheap = using more fuel and more damage to your engine = way more expensive then you think you can save.
and use good engine oil, so you can use a second hand Porsche from say 4 other owners each choosing their own fuel, maybe the first one asked the dealer, or looked in the book, yes you can use bio added fuel... or Ron92/95? or with 10% bio? and used that for years, by the time another Porsche lover buys such Porsche it can already have the first signs, or just not... so best to use proper fuel, only the best and make sure the engine is properly adjusted, not running too rich, to avoid bore wash.
so you can postpone the major damage, some can drive many more miles with the right treatment I guess.
GTRene said:
in the video's they speak of, watch out for to rich fuel (to much or how you say that) = wash away oil film
wrong cheap fuel = not good, only 98+ best stuf use!
many 'porsche' drivers seem to use the cheaper or 95+ octane or lower? or bio fuel, just stop that! lol, thats bad! and you are fooling yourself, cheap = using more fuel and more damage to your engine = way more expensive then you think you can save.
and use good engine oil, so you can use a second hand Porsche from say 4 other owners each choosing their own fuel, maybe the first one asked the dealer, or looked in the book, yes you can use bio added fuel... or Ron92/95? or with 10% bio? and used that for years, by the time another Porsche lover buys such Porsche it can already have the first signs, or just not... so best to use proper fuel, only the best and make sure the engine is properly adjusted, not running too rich, to avoid bore wash.
so you can postpone the major damage, some can drive many more miles with the right treatment I guess.
It’s a mechanical issue, and different fuel or engine oil will make next to no difference. The bore scoring will first occur when the oil film breaks down in the hottest cylinder, some believe after a heat soak event.wrong cheap fuel = not good, only 98+ best stuf use!
many 'porsche' drivers seem to use the cheaper or 95+ octane or lower? or bio fuel, just stop that! lol, thats bad! and you are fooling yourself, cheap = using more fuel and more damage to your engine = way more expensive then you think you can save.
and use good engine oil, so you can use a second hand Porsche from say 4 other owners each choosing their own fuel, maybe the first one asked the dealer, or looked in the book, yes you can use bio added fuel... or Ron92/95? or with 10% bio? and used that for years, by the time another Porsche lover buys such Porsche it can already have the first signs, or just not... so best to use proper fuel, only the best and make sure the engine is properly adjusted, not running too rich, to avoid bore wash.
so you can postpone the major damage, some can drive many more miles with the right treatment I guess.
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