Manthey 992 GT3 from OPC

[FZP]

Hi All
What's the view on the Manthey Program from OPC. Anyone had the kit fitted to their 992. I see Chester has two cars for sale, but interested to hear what an owner who has experience of the kit has to say. I've seen Harris' vid on it, but interested to hear what the real world experience is

[Cheib]

Personally if I was going to get a Manthey kit fitted I’d be looking at RPM….clearly depends on the individual OPC but whether they would set your car up as well as RPM I am not sure…I’d guess that RPM also have a lot more experience of fitting the kit too.

[Taffy66]

All Manthey kits make any Porsche much easier to drive harder and faster on track. The kit instills complete confidence to drive the car at the very limit. I have been around Donny in a 991.2GT3 RS with MT kit straight after mine in standard form and the transformation is night and day IMO.
However its very expensive for what you get and only really worth it to someone who does a lot of trackdays otherwise its better to keep the car standard and just get a nice geo.

[Taffy66]

RPM or JZM to fit it as I think that OEM technicians lack the experience and expertise to get the car set up to your liking just like Cheib said. All IMHO of course.

[Far Cough]

Who fits all that stuff and then flogs it with less than 2k miles on it bearing in mind it's about a thousand miles to run it in properly !!

[TDT]

Far Cough said:

Who fits all that stuff and then flogs it with less than 2k miles on it bearing in mind it's about a thousand miles to run it in properly !!

In this case, it might have been done directly by the OPC, or might have been done by customer in partnership with OPC as part of a deal for another car… think of it like buying the watch lol.

OPC would like to have at least one of these cars around or as a showcase for them.

I had been in discussion with my OPC about doing this on a used 992 GT3 to help them showcase, but it is super expensive

In terms of actually doing it…. Fitting at OPC would be fine and probably preferable from warranty and OPC pOv, as they get the full business. They have received full guidance from MR and use the official MR measuring equipment. Porsche will provide ‘paint by numbers’ set up sheet for OPC to follow.
I know directly that RPM and JZM have been working hard with Porsche to allow them to fit the kits, and for the warranties to carry over. They are getting there.

The challenge will come when you want to go beyond Porsche settings… just like with any geo. So then, if you’ve fitted at OPC and need further geo… you’ll end up paying for that at least twice, if you then go to Indy.

First 10mins of this vid give a good explanation… direct from Michael Grassl at Manthey.

Edited by TDT on Sunday 9th April 16:37

[993rsr]

Taffy66 said:

All Manthey kits make any Porsche much easier to drive harder and faster on track. The kit instills complete confidence to drive the car at the very limit. I have been around Donny in a 991.2GT3 RS with MT kit straight after mine in standard form and the transformation is night and day IMO.

You Wales answer to Gavin Kershaw?

I'm interested in how it's easier to drive harder and faster on track, and how the kit instills complete confidence to drive the car at the very limit? Night and day transformation how so?

TIA.

[Taffy66]

993rsr said:

You Wales answer to Gavin Kershaw?

I'm interested in how it's easier to drive harder and faster on track, and how the kit instills complete confidence to drive the car at the very limit? Night and day transformation how so?

TIA.

I thought it transformed the 991.2GT3 RS on track based in my admittedly limited experience. I also had laps with TDT at Oulton in March in his 718GT4 MR the same day I had my standard 718GT4 there and the difference is night and day. Might not apply to the 992GT3 MR but does transform both the 991.2GT3 RS and 718GT4 IMO.

[Taffy66]

To clarify I just mean the Manthey dampers and no idea about how the aero helps to be honest.

[993rsr]

Taffy66 said:

To clarify I just mean the Manthey dampers and no idea about how the aero helps to be honest.

I would think - and I'm not meaning this to be inflammatory - it's more to do with the delta in driver ability.

The dampers give an incremental improvement over OEM. After running the OEM Sachs on my CGT since I had it, I changed to KW early last year. It's improved the car in all aspect on the road and track, but night and day it is not.

[Taffy66]

993rsr said:

I would think - and I'm not meaning this to be inflammatory - it's more to do with the delta in driver ability.

The dampers give an incremental improvement over OEM. After running the OEM Sachs on my CGT since I had it, I changed to KW early last year. It's improved the car in all aspect on the road and track, but night and day it is not.

You could well be correct as I'm expressing an opinion from someone who has only been doing track days for a few years. For my level of ability the MR dampers keep the car so well under control it felt much safer to push hard which increases confidence but perhaps not so much for a high end racing driver.

[993rsr]

Taffy66 said:

993rsr said:

I would think - and I'm not meaning this to be inflammatory - it's more to do with the delta in driver ability.

The dampers give an incremental improvement over OEM. After running the OEM Sachs on my CGT since I had it, I changed to KW early last year. It's improved the car in all aspect on the road and track, but night and day it is not.

You could well be correct as I'm expressing an opinion from someone who has only been doing track days for a few years. For my level of ability the MR dampers keep the car so well under control it felt much safer to push hard which increases confidence but perhaps not so much for a high end racing driver.

I think one has to be careful of the placebo affect with some of these mods. It's impossible without empirical lap time data to make accurate comparisons. A well set up GT car on OEM dampers vs. a well set up GT car on KW etc. will feel very similar, albeit quicker with the modified cars in the hands of a pro like TH rather than track day warriors like us. For all but the quickest track day drivers, adding more sophisticated dampers will not IMO improve lap times on a like for like geo set up.

Proper tuition will be the biggest benefit.

I've got a couple of days with Mike Wilds renting Hethel to get some tuition.

[Yellow491]

993rsr said:

Taffy66 said:

993rsr said:

I would think - and I'm not meaning this to be inflammatory - it's more to do with the delta in driver ability.

The dampers give an incremental improvement over OEM. After running the OEM Sachs on my CGT since I had it, I changed to KW early last year. It's improved the car in all aspect on the road and track, but night and day it is not.

You could well be correct as I'm expressing an opinion from someone who has only been doing track days for a few years. For my level of ability the MR dampers keep the car so well under control it felt much safer to push hard which increases confidence but perhaps not so much for a high end racing driver.

I think one has to be careful of the placebo affect with some of these mods. It's impossible without empirical lap time data to make accurate comparisons. A well set up GT car on OEM dampers vs. a well set up GT car on KW etc. will feel very similar, albeit quicker with the modified cars in the hands of a pro like TH rather than track day warriors like us. For all but the quickest track day drivers, adding more sophisticated dampers will not IMO improve lap times on a like for like geo set up.

Proper tuition will be the biggest benefit.

I've got a couple of days with Mike Wilds renting Hethel to get some tuition.

Is that to get yer own back after the close one at silverstone a couple of years back at the end of wellington straight;)
I find it astounding that folk need to put bespoke marketing hype components onto one of the best cars out there,factory standard with a good set up will inspire confidence and once you can rinse the st out of it,then look for improvements.Think about moving onto slicks,or buy a cup car which will make a standard car feel like a boat.

[993rsr]

Yellow491 said:

993rsr said:

Taffy66 said:

993rsr said:

I would think - and I'm not meaning this to be inflammatory - it's more to do with the delta in driver ability.

The dampers give an incremental improvement over OEM. After running the OEM Sachs on my CGT since I had it, I changed to KW early last year. It's improved the car in all aspect on the road and track, but night and day it is not.

You could well be correct as I'm expressing an opinion from someone who has only been doing track days for a few years. For my level of ability the MR dampers keep the car so well under control it felt much safer to push hard which increases confidence but perhaps not so much for a high end racing driver.

I think one has to be careful of the placebo affect with some of these mods. It's impossible without empirical lap time data to make accurate comparisons. A well set up GT car on OEM dampers vs. a well set up GT car on KW etc. will feel very similar, albeit quicker with the modified cars in the hands of a pro like TH rather than track day warriors like us. For all but the quickest track day drivers, adding more sophisticated dampers will not IMO improve lap times on a like for like geo set up.

Proper tuition will be the biggest benefit.

I've got a couple of days with Mike Wilds renting Hethel to get some tuition.

Is that to get yer own back after the close one at silverstone a couple of years back at the end of wellington straight;)
I find it astounding that folk need to put bespoke marketing hype components onto one of the best cars out there,factory standard with a good set up will inspire confidence and once you can rinse the st out of it,then look for improvements.Think about moving onto slicks,or buy a cup car which will make a standard car feel like a boat.

The Welly Straight incident

You are spot on mate with your comments.

[TDT]

993rsr said:

Taffy66 said:

993rsr said:

I would think - and I'm not meaning this to be inflammatory - it's more to do with the delta in driver ability.

The dampers give an incremental improvement over OEM. After running the OEM Sachs on my CGT since I had it, I changed to KW early last year. It's improved the car in all aspect on the road and track, but night and day it is not.

You could well be correct as I'm expressing an opinion from someone who has only been doing track days for a few years. For my level of ability the MR dampers keep the car so well under control it felt much safer to push hard which increases confidence but perhaps not so much for a high end racing driver.

I think one has to be careful of the placebo affect with some of these mods. It's impossible without empirical lap time data to make accurate comparisons. A well set up GT car on OEM dampers vs. a well set up GT car on KW etc. will feel very similar, albeit quicker with the modified cars in the hands of a pro like TH rather than track day warriors like us. For all but the quickest track day drivers, adding more sophisticated dampers will not IMO improve lap times on a like for like geo set up.

Proper tuition will be the biggest benefit.

I've got a couple of days with Mike Wilds renting Hethel to get some tuition.

I think these is enough room here for the typical consultants answer of: ‘it depends’

Proper tuition, seat time and improvement of the soft bit behind the steering wheel do yield the biggest gain. No doubt about it.
There is much more to be gained from improving the driver, than mods, and it’s much cheaper too… as some of these bits are irrationally expensive.

But I would say IME, that a better controlled car from a chassis poV, does give me more confidence to push myself harder and lean on the car more. I know there are people that are much quicker than me running round with 100% standard cars… but I do also think they are fighting the car a lot more than I would be to get there.
So it’s not just the empirical time… sometimes it’s how you achieve it.

I would also argue that changing out components like the dampers change the car to greater or lesser degree depending on the car.

For a GT4 with McPherson struts all around…. I think it had a larger effect - for one spring rates are changed, the internal valving rates of the dampers are changed and the strength of the damper body itself is increased. These cars put a lot of load even laterally through the damper body so the result of a ‘better built’ part can be felt.

On the other end of the equation, with the CGT… it was already running a motorsport OEM spec damper at the end of a fully double wishbones, push rod suspension fixed to a carbon tub. So maybe changing out the damper here, that only needs to move in one plane doesn’t have such a dramatic or immediate effect? I’m only supposing.

For 992 GT3 the sport auto guys acheived an N’ring lap time about 5 secs slower than Lars Kern, stock Vs stock.
When the MR kit was bolted on… both Porsche and then sport auto improved by the same amount… c4.secs… but the delta between them remained.
Sport auto said they just had confidence to push harder, but acknowledged that the driver is still the major factor, as their time in the MR car only matched Lars lap in the 100% standard car.

Apparently there is a lap from Kevin Estre in the 992 GT3MR that is another 8.7secs quicker…6m50.7…. which will never see the light of day… because that’s 992 RS territory.

Edited by TDT on Sunday 9th April 21:19

[Applause]

The Chester cars only appear to have part of the kit fitted, the wheels and rear aero discs are missing and there is no mention of the dampers or various other parts in the description.

Porsche have confirmed that the kit should only be sold as a whole and not in part as its incremental gains due to the some of the parts.

I looked at it, price is circa £50k. - A fraction of the cost on tuition would make 99% of people quicker. If your a novice/intermediate your not going to feel the difference given pro's are only picking up 4/5 seconds over a 13 mile lap!

[Caddyshack]

My friend has a 996gt3 RS and a 997 GT3 RS but his 4.2 Manthey is something very special according to him and he has spent an awful lot of time on track.

Flemke had the car built iirc.

[dimitris.racing]

[Nuttcase]

Applause said:

The Chester cars only appear to have part of the kit fitted, the wheels and rear aero discs are missing and there is no mention of the dampers or various other parts in the description.

Porsche have confirmed that the kit should only be sold as a whole and not in part as its incremental gains due to the some of the parts.

I looked at it, price is circa £50k. - A fraction of the cost on tuition would make 99% of people quicker. If your a novice/intermediate your not going to feel the difference given pro's are only picking up 4/5 seconds over a 13 mile lap!

I wonder how much of the £50k you would get back in a year or two. Based on previous listings and sales I'd say a high spec 09/22 low mileage GT3 like the silver one (PCCB, club, carbon roof, matrix etc) would have already sold for around the £200k mark, so the package is hurting the sale - it has been for sale since ~November - one of the longest listed OPC cars. By the way, the photos do show the aero discs and the PH listing description includes the suspension upgrades.

[TDT]

Applause said:

The Chester cars only appear to have part of the kit fitted, the wheels and rear aero discs are missing and there is no mention of the dampers or various other parts in the description.

Porsche have confirmed that the kit should only be sold as a whole and not in part as its incremental gains due to the some of the parts.

I looked at it, price is circa £50k. - A fraction of the cost on tuition would make 99% of people quicker. If your a novice/intermediate your not going to feel the difference given pro's are only picking up 4/5 seconds over a 13 mile lap!

Wheels and aero discs are optional extras on the kit.

I don’t think there is a debate that tuition makes you quicker.
It’s a disingenuous argument anyway.. as by that rationale, most people on here shouldn’t be driving anything more capable than a Vauxhall Astra or Ford Focus, let along any Porsche sports car. That’s what Rob Wilson uses Vauxhall Astra to coach F1 drivers so maybe we should all save money and go back to those… but that’s not gonna happen is it?!… ergo whilst logically rational and reductive, it’s a ridiculous statement.