Porsche 911: is there any substitute?

[white_goodman]

It's a motoring icon that has slowly evolved over 60 years, nearly cancelled in the 80s I believe and yet had a reprieve thanks to enthusiast support and seems to have gone from strength-to-strength since and still managed to stay relevant. Porsche make many more models these days but the 911 still seems like the Porsche to have and the one that's not going anywhere soon. Depending on what model/era you go for, it's all things to all people. Everyday sports car, GT car, track/race car, supercar. In some ways it's a bit of a dull/predictable choice and not as exciting to look at or as exotic as some of its would be competitors, kind of the "Golf GTI" of sports/GT cars if you will.

So what is the enduring appeal of the 911? I have limited first-hand experience of them but thought the 930-generation a bit of a relic in the 80s with the front-engined Porsches (944 Turbo/928) being more desirable to me and the future of Porsche (I think that maybe Porsche may have thought this at the time also). I thought that the last air-cooled 993s were very pretty cars but not in the "big league" with Ferrari, still a bit of an antique compared to a Honda NSX and not the luxury GT car that it is today. Porsche then focussed on mid-engined cars, which in theory are less compromised and have more potential than the 911 as demonstrated by Porsche's hypercars (Carrera GT/918) but despite this, the 911 still endures. Stuff like the Audi R8 and V8 Vantage seem more "special" and exotic to me and with a lottery win, I would be very tempted but if I had saved up for all of my life, for some reason the 911 still appeals. I guess that the 2+2 configuration appeals to those with young children and the relative usability/reliability/doable running costs if you're going to use it every day is part of the appeal but whereas the front boot might be more practical than something mid-engined, is it as practical as something front-engined with a regular rear boot (XK/F-Type/Granturismo/V8V/GTR/AMG GT etc)? Something less exotic like a BMW M3 has always offered a level of practicality and more "bang-for-buck" than a regular 911 Carrera too but then I guess that's "just a fast 3-series".

So what is the enduring appeal of the Porsche 911, what makes them special and despite some of the compromises of its design, how has it managed to prevail over all of its would-be competitors for the last 60 or so years?

[Canon_Fodder]

white_goodman said:

... I guess that the 2+2 configuration appeals to those with young children ...

I don't think that's a significant factor. I'm quite old and I have never seen a child in the back of a 911

(Cue lots of pics of people's bairns in the back of their 911)

Engineering excellence plays a big part I think - they're just so much more reliable than other supercars. Perhaps more so in the 90s and 00s as other brands have caught up a bit

[white_goodman]

Canon_Fodder said:

I don't think that's a significant factor. I'm quite old and I have never seen a child in the back of a 911

(Cue lots of pics of people's bairns in the back of their 911)

Engineering excellence plays a big part I think - they're just so much more reliable than other supercars. Perhaps more so in the 90s and 00s as other brands have caught up a bit

996/early 997 engines had some issues....overall probably a good update from the air-cooled cars though and they have gone from strength-to-strength since.

[CABC]

white_goodman said:

kind of the "Golf GTI" of sports/GT cars if you will.

nailed it.
there are many better options for purer fun & 'sport', but it reigns supreme as the polished allrounder.

there are more credible alternatives nowadays that may have more foibles along with their own charms. Jags, Massers, McLs, AM, Lambo.

then you have to consider that the 911 has 2 streams: GT and vanilla. one now has double wishbones, is hand-built and is hard to purchase. halo defined! The vanilla has enough engineering depth behind to just keep ahead.

however, the market has transformed immensely during its life and its own position too. so, substitute for what?

[cerb4.5lee]

I'd love a go in one because anyone who's had one say that they are ace and there is just nothing like them. I've personally always preferred(mostly) the 928 because of the V8 and I find that I generally go for front engined/rwd cars too.

I've also done the M3 and M4 thing now, so maybe it's time to try a 911. However...knowing me I'd still go in the direction of the Merc AMG GT instead!

[PGNSagaris]

Canon_Fodder said:

white_goodman said:

... I guess that the 2+2 configuration appeals to those with young children ...

I don't think that's a significant factor. I'm quite old and I have never seen a child in the back of a 911

One of the main reasons I owned my first few 911’s. And probably the main reason I’m looking to get into another that isn’t a GT car - 997.1 C2 manual ideally

[reddiesel]

I have to agree ,the 911 GTS I recently owned was a great car if a bit breathless north of 150mph . The new Vantage I traded her in for I have to say has been a revelation especially in acceleration and road presence .
It’s also in my humble opinion a far better sounding engine . It is however a strict two seater .

[Filibuster]

PGNSagaris said:

Canon_Fodder said:

white_goodman said:

... I guess that the 2+2 configuration appeals to those with young children ...

I don't think that's a significant factor. I'm quite old and I have never seen a child in the back of a 911

One of the main reasons I owned my first few 911’s. And probably the main reason I’m looking to get into another that isn’t a GT car - 997.1 C2 manual ideally

I do have a 997.1 C2 manual and I take my young one out in the back seat all the time.

[bencollins4]

reddiesel said:

the 911 GTS I recently owned was a great car if a bit breathless north of 150mph

That does sound like a real problem. Would really annoy me on the M25!

[Brighton Speed]

For me it's all about the handling balance. Having the engine out back seems to introduce the driver to a new type of driving experience. There's no other car that can make you feel the way you do when you get your braking, entry speed, line and perfect application of throttle just right, which then fires you out of a corner. The wail from the flat six is the icing on the proverbial. It's weird, as like all the best machines it's somehow greater than the sum of its parts.

And most of them look great too.

[RDMcG]

Was a BMW M driver for many years and had only a passing interest in Porsches. I went to the Nürburgring one time and a friend persuaded me to take a couple of pax laps in a very sorted 996. I was at that time less satisfied with BMW direction anyway. I moved over, bought a 997 GT3RS and now have a variety of the things.

I do not for a moment thing that they are the best cars in the world. Different people have very different needs and driving styles. For me, they work very well. There is a precision to them, a sense of involvement and a sense of history too. You can draw a line back through the development of the car and see how it got to the present.

I also have a Jeep and the one this it shares with a 911 is that it requires no knowledge or interest in cars to identify it.

My advice if you get one is to drive the wheels off it. They are tough cars and can take spirited treatment.

[supersport]

Filibuster said:

PGNSagaris said:

Canon_Fodder said:

white_goodman said:

... I guess that the 2+2 configuration appeals to those with young children ...

I don't think that's a significant factor. I'm quite old and I have never seen a child in the back of a 911

One of the main reasons I owned my first few 911’s. And probably the main reason I’m looking to get into another that isn’t a GT car - 997.1 C2 manual ideally

I do have a 997.1 C2 manual and I take my young one out in the back seat all the time.

Me too, my son was in the back from a year old, Le Mans at three years old and a few times after.

It’s a decent family car when they are small.

[nickfrog]

Brighton Speed said:

For me it's all about the handling balance. Having the engine out back seems to introduce the driver to a new type of driving experience. There's no other car that can make you feel the way you do when you get your braking, entry speed, line and perfect application of throttle just right, which then fires you out of a corner. The wail from the flat six is the icing on the proverbial. It's weird, as like all the best machines it's somehow greater than the sum of its parts.

And most of them look great too.

I only ever drove a 997 and a couple of track 911s. I know what you mean and it is very rewarding past the apex, although it often requires trail braking until very deep. My only issue was how the turn in feels, as in weirdly floaty even on the shaper big camber track cars. I suspect this is resolved with the GT cars and the 992 what with the different weight balance.

[browngt3]

bencollins4 said:

reddiesel said:

the 911 GTS I recently owned was a great car if a bit breathless north of 150mph

That does sound like a real problem. Would really annoy me on the M25!

I agree, it's the most frustrating thing about 911 ownership. Once, I did 174 in it. Took an age to get there

[white_goodman]

browngt3 said:

I agree, it's the most frustrating thing about 911 ownership. Once, I did 174 in it. Took an age to get there

Interesting, I guess that's what perhaps makes it closer to a sports car than a GT car, although I would have thought that a 992 Turbo S wouldn't have an issue blasting past 174mph?

[cerb4.5lee]

nickfrog said:

Brighton Speed said:

For me it's all about the handling balance. Having the engine out back seems to introduce the driver to a new type of driving experience. There's no other car that can make you feel the way you do when you get your braking, entry speed, line and perfect application of throttle just right, which then fires you out of a corner. The wail from the flat six is the icing on the proverbial. It's weird, as like all the best machines it's somehow greater than the sum of its parts.

And most of them look great too.

I only ever drove a 997 and a couple of track 911s. I know what you mean and it is very rewarding past the apex, although it often requires trail braking until very deep. My only issue was how the turn in feels, as in weirdly floaty even on the shaper big camber track cars. I suspect this is resolved with the GT cars and the 992 what with the different weight balance.

Obviously they aren't all that similar, but the floaty front end was something that took a lot of getting used to for me in my old 1982 rear engined Skoda Estelle. It was a very odd feeling I thought. The front end always felt incredibly light, and that probably explains why I have a preference for front engined rwd drive cars still now.

[Schuey_911]

reddiesel said:

The 911 GTS I recently owned was a great car if a bit breathless north of 150mph .

Which generation car was that?

I ask because I did a trip to Germany and back in my 992 GTS and I hit 178mph on the Autobahn and it was still pulling like a train. I only slowed down because there was traffic ahead.

[Edmundo2]

I think the Evora S/400 is a proper rival..

I recently drove both a 997.2 and an Evora S and have come away looking for an Evora 400..I should possibly have bought the 997.2 as it seemed a really good car for the money and was promptly sold the day after I viewed it, ( 48 hours after going to market ).

It was a lovely thing and the Lotus couldn't match the germanic build quality however I was looking for a weekend toy and to my mind the Evora just felt ike more of an event, more of a sports car...I used to own a modded 987 Cayman S which I loved and tbh I felt the same about that vs 997.1...It just felt more "sports car"..

To my mind the 911 is the best car out there still if you had to own just one car or were wealthy and looking for a daily.. I'm sure when it comes to weekend toys the GT3 models are superb and visceral enough but I think at the lower end of the market there are better sports cars in Cayman and Lotus..

[bridggar1]

Like many on here I suspect, I've had a few 911s (and boxsters) since 1996 and each evolution has impressed me more and more - but......you only live once and if you've limited access to wealth, it's good to try other things. After selling my last 991.2 C2S cab last summer, I've just purchased an older (2017) M4 CP cab.

It's certainly different. It's a bit wobbly and power delivery takes a bit of getting used to. I suspect I will get another 911 at some point, just not sure when or what.

[Geneve]

I think there are 5 primary factors that established and defined the original 911’s reputation back in the 60s and ‘70s:

- Butzi’s clean, simple, lightweight, compact design
- Its overall practicality and the 2+2 configuration
- Its day-to-day usability - town, touring, track
- The race-bred engineering quality and reliability
- The rewarding driving dynamics and performance

However, until the switch to the water-cooled models (996>) a lot of people didn’t really get the 911, it tended to be bought by the cognoscenti. Many preferring to spend similar money on bigger, more luxurious, more exotic alternatives from Ferrari, Aston Martin, BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes…..
In fact, Porsche developed the 928 to cater for that market, and had planned to phase out the 911 in the ‘90s.

But, instead, they finally recognised the marketing value of evolving the 911, through the Geneation Z 996, 997, 991, 992 guises, to appeal to a wider mainstream audience.

Ironically, it is many of these new customers, who now consider themselves one of the ‘911 set’, but would never have actually bought one back in the ‘golden era’ of the air-cooled generation.