RWS - why is it a big deal?
Discussion
I remember Honda touting the benefits in the prelude with Type SH and Mitsubishi on the 3000GT but no one seemed to care. Then.
Now F cars have it and P cars have them. To me it adds weight (reportedly 40kg) and is another part to break down (gen 1?) but adds agility at low speeds and stability at high speeds. P cars don't have long wheelbase anyway (yes it has increased a bit - how much?) but surely it can't be worth more than pure marketing spin and the ability to further milk customers as a must-have. Has any magazine concretely tested a car without? Much like PDCC, except they didn't have it on the GT3, so it can't be that good??? I am genuinely surprised that the GT2 RS didn't have it.
This would have made it a compulsory option for all future customers buying cooking versions.
Anyway, would you spec RWS?
Now F cars have it and P cars have them. To me it adds weight (reportedly 40kg) and is another part to break down (gen 1?) but adds agility at low speeds and stability at high speeds. P cars don't have long wheelbase anyway (yes it has increased a bit - how much?) but surely it can't be worth more than pure marketing spin and the ability to further milk customers as a must-have. Has any magazine concretely tested a car without? Much like PDCC, except they didn't have it on the GT3, so it can't be that good??? I am genuinely surprised that the GT2 RS didn't have it.
This would have made it a compulsory option for all future customers buying cooking versions.
Anyway, would you spec RWS?
The new GT2RS has rear wheel steer. I have never experienced it myself. I can only imagine that it makes the car feel sharper on turn in.
I would love to hear from someone like Steve Rance who can really drive as to whether on the track it truly works. Or just adds another dimension that one would not be happy working with.
I would love to hear from someone like Steve Rance who can really drive as to whether on the track it truly works. Or just adds another dimension that one would not be happy working with.
yes, its another part to wear (and given it's location, it's subject to road / weather conditions)
Can you tell its working ?
Well, in my GT3, I wouldn't like to say you can or can't - I guess thats just a good systems integration.
I would say, subjectively, that the car is more 'nimble' at tighter cornering than my previous GT's and does seem very stable air high speed.
Is that the rear wheel steer ?
dunno !
Whilst my car was in the air @ CoG being setup, they checked the play in the actuators - some have been known to develop play - mine haven't (30K miles in )
Can you tell its working ?
Well, in my GT3, I wouldn't like to say you can or can't - I guess thats just a good systems integration.
I would say, subjectively, that the car is more 'nimble' at tighter cornering than my previous GT's and does seem very stable air high speed.
Is that the rear wheel steer ?
dunno !
Whilst my car was in the air @ CoG being setup, they checked the play in the actuators - some have been known to develop play - mine haven't (30K miles in )
I don't consider myself a racing driver by any means but am a fast driver and after driving a 991 with RAS and a 991 without i can testify they are night and day. If you like the traditional slow in fast out driving style of old 991's don't spec RAS as it makes the car behave more like a mid-engine with far less inclination to wash out into understeer.
I was driving the other day in my RAS 991 GTS at pace and as i was coming around a corner i encountered a fallen branch on the road with no time to brake and just instinctively made a rapid steering manoeuvre and the car safely and planted avoided it,i don't think a non RAS would have reacted so swiftly and resulted in either a collision or loss of control.
I dont know where you got the 40kg weight from but i can tell you its nonsense as it hardly weighs anything unless you've mixed up with PDCC which does add some weight because of the hydraulics involved.All high performance motorsport GT Porsche 991s comes with non-deletable RAS as standard but PDCC is not fitted even as an option.This tells you everything imo and i would not buy a 991 without RAS however the GT4 does not require it or needs it tbh.
Personally I think there's enough going on at the rear of the car (e-diff, abd, torque vectoring through rear brakes) without adding another layer of electronics doing goodness knows what but I don't doubt that the rws system makes the car more agile and faster on track. The 918 would not have it otherwise. The gt4 doesn't because of it's price point....
Taffy66 said:
I was driving the other day in my RAS 991 GTS at pace and as i was coming around a corner i encountered a fallen branch on the road with no time to brake
It may be worth choosing a pace that does allow you time to brake. You never truly know what's around the next corner, as your experience above demonstratesisaldiri said:
The gt4 doesn't because of it's price point....
The reason its not offered on the GT4 is because it is a mid-engined car with a short wheelbase and adding RAS would make it far too twitchy for safe road use and nothing to do with cost.It suits rear engined and long front-engined cars but not mid-engined.
isaldiri said:
Personally I think there's enough going on at the rear of the car (e-diff, abd, torque vectoring through rear brakes) without adding another layer of electronics doing goodness knows what but I don't doubt that the rws system makes the car more agile and faster on track. The 918 would not have it otherwise. The gt4 doesn't because of it's price point....
GT4, does not have RWS due to body not wide enough to fit the Servos etc for the RWS system.. Drove my old 991 13MY C2s last week. No RWS about as agile as a sold plank of wood in comparrison, to a car with RWS...Taffy66 said:
The reason its not offered on the GT4 is because it is a mid-engined car with a short wheelbase and adding RAS would make it far too twitchy for safe road use and nothing to do with cost.It suits rear engined and long front-engined cars but not mid-engined.
And the gt4 has a longer wheelbase than the gt3 - 2484mm vs 2457mm.
Taffy66 said:
I don't consider myself a racing driver by any means but am a fast driver and after driving a 991 with RAS and a 991 without i can testify they are night and day. If you like the traditional slow in fast out driving style of old 991's don't spec RAS as it makes the car behave more like a mid-engine with far less inclination to wash out into understeer.
I was driving the other day in my RAS 991 GTS at pace and as i was coming around a corner i encountered a fallen branch on the road with no time to brake and just instinctively made a rapid steering manoeuvre and the car safely and planted avoided it,i don't think a non RAS would have reacted so swiftly and resulted in either a collision or loss of control.
I dont know where you got the 40kg weight from but i can tell you its nonsense as it hardly weighs anything unless you've mixed up with PDCC which does add some weight because of the hydraulics involved.All high performance motorsport GT Porsche 991s comes with non-deletable RAS as standard but PDCC is not fitted even as an option.This tells you everything imo and i would not buy a 991 without RAS however the GT4 does not require it or needs it tbh.
40kg as mentioned by Chris Harris in the latest top gear mag. He did indicate that on the 911R, they took it off and promptly put it back on despite the 40kg additional weight. At the wrong end I might add.I was driving the other day in my RAS 991 GTS at pace and as i was coming around a corner i encountered a fallen branch on the road with no time to brake and just instinctively made a rapid steering manoeuvre and the car safely and planted avoided it,i don't think a non RAS would have reacted so swiftly and resulted in either a collision or loss of control.
I dont know where you got the 40kg weight from but i can tell you its nonsense as it hardly weighs anything unless you've mixed up with PDCC which does add some weight because of the hydraulics involved.All high performance motorsport GT Porsche 991s comes with non-deletable RAS as standard but PDCC is not fitted even as an option.This tells you everything imo and i would not buy a 991 without RAS however the GT4 does not require it or needs it tbh.
no one disagrees the largest change in the 991 is the move of the engine forward (in 911 terms) and the enlarged wheelbase. But, everything I hear is subjective from independent parties and the only one to put it where it counts is Porsche in the Gt3 whereas not in the cooking model (only as a cost option), but Porsche is hardly independent (in this respect)
Wish some mag/journo would try and debunk this instead of useless road comparos and stupid flashbacks on retro cars. For once we have useful tech and no one seems capable/willing to see if they indeed make a difference via laptimes or even subjective handling on the same day on the same track. All we get is PH experts telling me their ad hoc comparos which may be no less valid but done on different conditions.
anyway, I'm not even sure PDCC is bad.. Why does McLaren have them on the 650 and 720 higher end and faster models? does the 675 LT have them?
on RWS, to me the jury is still out there. I hate marketing for the sake of marketing.
pound for pound, the GT4 is still immense value for money despite not having the ENGINE or RWS or PDK.
isaldiri said:
Taffy66 said:
The reason its not offered on the GT4 is because it is a mid-engined car with a short wheelbase and adding RAS would make it far too twitchy for safe road use and nothing to do with cost.It suits rear engined and long front-engined cars but not mid-engined.
And the gt4 has a longer wheelbase than the gt3 - 2484mm vs 2457mm.
I don't think the reason the GT4 has anything to do with packaging as its slightly wider at the back compared to the 991S and if it had it i suspect it would ruin it imo.
Taffy66 said:
RWS imv is not needed on a car such as the GT4 which is mid-engined and short wheelbase(2484mm) where the 918 also mid engined and longer wheelbase(2730mm) probably benefits from RAS.If you had RWS on the GT4 it would be overly twitchy on turn in unless you compensated by making the steering ratio lower geared. I've owned a GT4 for 18mths and now the new 991 GTS with RAS and can tell you the 991 without RAS feels like a barge compared to the 991 with RAS or a GT4 which is plenty agile without it.
I don't think the reason the GT4 has anything to do with packaging as its slightly wider at the back compared to the 991S and if it had it i suspect it would ruin it imo.
RWS works both ways - even if it is of no help to low speed agility and would make the car 'overly twitchy' as you say which I very much doubt, Porsche could always reduce the maximum steering angle and speeds at which the wheels reverse in direction to the front wheels. At high speeds, the rear wheels move in the same direction as the front wheels to increase stability by effectively increasing the wheelbase. I can't see how that would be a disbenefit in the 'short wheelbase' gt4 (which has a longer wheelbase than the gt3 that does use rws to it seems considerable effectiveness). I don't think the reason the GT4 has anything to do with packaging as its slightly wider at the back compared to the 991S and if it had it i suspect it would ruin it imo.
My personal guess (no more than a guess mind you) is that with the less sophisticated rear strut suspension, the same programming and such that was used on the multi link rear suspension of the 918 and 911 could not be easily used on the gt4 without extra technical work (ie cost) so that was shelved. I agree the gt4 works perfectly well without it, however imo the car would almost certainly also be faster if Porsche chose to implement it.
HokumPokum said:
Taffy66 said:
I don't consider myself a racing driver by any means but am a fast driver and after driving a 991 with RAS and a 991 without i can testify they are night and day. If you like the traditional slow in fast out driving style of old 991's don't spec RAS as it makes the car behave more like a mid-engine with far less inclination to wash out into understeer.
I was driving the other day in my RAS 991 GTS at pace and as i was coming around a corner i encountered a fallen branch on the road with no time to brake and just instinctively made a rapid steering manoeuvre and the car safely and planted avoided it,i don't think a non RAS would have reacted so swiftly and resulted in either a collision or loss of control.
I dont know where you got the 40kg weight from but i can tell you its nonsense as it hardly weighs anything unless you've mixed up with PDCC which does add some weight because of the hydraulics involved.All high performance motorsport GT Porsche 991s comes with non-deletable RAS as standard but PDCC is not fitted even as an option.This tells you everything imo and i would not buy a 991 without RAS however the GT4 does not require it or needs it tbh.
40kg as mentioned by Chris Harris in the latest top gear mag. He did indicate that on the 911R, they took it off and promptly put it back on despite the 40kg additional weight. At the wrong end I might add.I was driving the other day in my RAS 991 GTS at pace and as i was coming around a corner i encountered a fallen branch on the road with no time to brake and just instinctively made a rapid steering manoeuvre and the car safely and planted avoided it,i don't think a non RAS would have reacted so swiftly and resulted in either a collision or loss of control.
I dont know where you got the 40kg weight from but i can tell you its nonsense as it hardly weighs anything unless you've mixed up with PDCC which does add some weight because of the hydraulics involved.All high performance motorsport GT Porsche 991s comes with non-deletable RAS as standard but PDCC is not fitted even as an option.This tells you everything imo and i would not buy a 991 without RAS however the GT4 does not require it or needs it tbh.
no one disagrees the largest change in the 991 is the move of the engine forward (in 911 terms) and the enlarged wheelbase. But, everything I hear is subjective from independent parties and the only one to put it where it counts is Porsche in the Gt3 whereas not in the cooking model (only as a cost option), but Porsche is hardly independent (in this respect)
Wish some mag/journo would try and debunk this instead of useless road comparos and stupid flashbacks on retro cars. For once we have useful tech and no one seems capable/willing to see if they indeed make a difference via laptimes or even subjective handling on the same day on the same track. All we get is PH experts telling me their ad hoc comparos which may be no less valid but done on different conditions.
anyway, I'm not even sure PDCC is bad.. Why does McLaren have them on the 650 and 720 higher end and faster models? does the 675 LT have them?
on RWS, to me the jury is still out there. I hate marketing for the sake of marketing.
pound for pound, the GT4 is still immense value for money despite not having the ENGINE or RWS or PDK.
http://flatsixes.com/cars/911-gt2gt3gt3-rs/andreas...
Q&A WITH PORSCHE’S ANDREAS PREUNINGER ON THE NEW 911 GT3
FS: Can Rear Wheel Steering be turned off and how much weight does it add?
AP: It was planned to make it switchable and so I stated this already in earlier interviews. This is still under discussion at the moment because of the influence on ESP systems, which was not so clear some weeks (months) ago. So my initial statements might have been a little premature, sorry.
Well see what we do, but it is definitely very cool proof positive when you can compare back to back. Weight of the system is easily compensated by improved agility and stability, as well as more "feel" for the car. System weight is about 7 kgs, the need for a bigger battery adds another 6.
I'm struggling to believe the Gen 2 version is heavier (or indeed why it should be) let alone that it'd be 40kgs heavier.
Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 14th August 08:58
Magic919 said:
HokumPokum said:
anyway, I'm not even sure PDCC is bad.. Why does McLaren have them on the 650 and 720 higher end and faster models? does the 675 LT have them?
McLaren doesn't fit Porsche Dynamic Chassis Control. Magic919 said:
HokumPokum said:
anyway, I'm not even sure PDCC is bad.. Why does McLaren have them on the 650 and 720 higher end and faster models? does the 675 LT have them?
McLaren doesn't fit Porsche Dynamic Chassis Control. Taffy66 said:
Magic919 said:
HokumPokum said:
anyway, I'm not even sure PDCC is bad.. Why does McLaren have them on the 650 and 720 higher end and faster models? does the 675 LT have them?
McLaren doesn't fit Porsche Dynamic Chassis Control. Gassing Station | 911/Carrera GT | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff