430 scud vs 996 GT2

[supermono]

I think I saw this weekend why I've failed to be excited enough to buy a 458. They're a bit like a 911 turbo I think, super polished amazingly accomplished but a little bit boring.

Looking at a 430 scud this weekend I think I'm looking at the Ferrari equivalent of GT2 versus turbo.

Anyone gone from one to the other?

Might be worth mortgaging the grandmother for the switch. Absolutely beautifully raw looking and purposeful thing, apparently drives similarly to the GT2 being a little bit harsh and "dangerous".

Has that handmade look I was lusting over so many examples of in the Ferrari museums last weekend.

[Slippydiff]

supermono said:

I think I saw this weekend why I've failed to be excited enough to buy a 458. They're a bit like a 911 turbo I think, super polished amazingly accomplished but a little bit boring.

Looking at a 430 scud this weekend I think I'm looking at the Ferrari equivalent of GT2 versus turbo.

Anyone gone from one to the other?

Might be worth mortgaging the grandmother for the switch. Absolutely beautifully raw looking and purposeful thing, apparently drives similarly to the GT2 being a little bit harsh and "dangerous".

Has that handmade look I was lusting over so many examples of in the Ferrari museums last weekend.

Not sure where you've got that from Steve ? No comparison whatsoever from my perspective. The F car has a gazillion and one electronic systems quietly doing their thing all the time in the background to ensure you don't fall off the road, the GT2 has one but one nut holding the wheel (and he/she are solely charged with keeping the car shiny side up/out of the scenery)

The Ferrari feels special in a different way : a LOT more drama than the GT2 (and a lot more theatre too) you won't get the level of steering feedback you do in the GT2 (but that's a given, as few tin tops do). Gearchanges are brutal and require no skill on the part of the driver at all. I suspect the novelty would wear off pretty quickly (and the noise would start to wear, full stop). But I can also see the allure of the Scud, they're an amazing car and look quite incredible, added to which they're way more analogue and visceral than the 458 (I'm with you, the 458 was just too cossetting and "fast GT car" when compared to the 996/997 GT2/GT3 RS cars.

But they also say variety is the spice of life. You must have had the GT2 ten years + ? now ? so maybe the time has come for a change. I'd make sure the Scud roadtest is a long one just to ensure the honeymoon isn't a short one.

Be really interested to hear your thoughts

[supermono]

Thanks for that Charles yes I've had it for 10 years this April I think. The drive across The Peaks and even there and back -- back in the pouring rain mostly -- was a delight in the GT2. When home and looking like it'd covered every one of those 500 miles I immediately got to work with the bucket and sponge and within an hour it was back gleaming once more under its cover in the garage. It didn't miss a beat. Such an amazing car. And only once on a dry bit between roundabouts from some services did it attempt to get all unnecessary, still reminding me not to take the pee after all this time.

Regarding the Scud, that's interesting and I definitely need to have a decent drive around in it to see if I can live with LHD and with that gearbox. Some guys from the V8 Ferrari forum are helping too.

It's definitely clear that a 458 isn't likely to be the move I want to make for the reasons it seems we all agree on. I'm not even sure the 458 feels as quick as the '2 even though on paper it's a bit faster. That a 2002 car is still able to cut it in such company is pretty amazing really.

[Digga]

supermono said:

I'm not even sure the 458 feels as quick as the '2 even though on paper it's a bit faster. That a 2002 car is still able to cut it in such company is pretty amazing really.

I can't think of another 'supercar' level powertrain that has benefited from such extensive development and use on road and track as the twin-turbo Mezger set up. It's very much a known and well resolved entity, the likes of which we'll possibly never see again.

[supermono]

Indeed. On the road it's limited of course but when there's a bit of heat in it and you've been running it for a decent amount of time at highish revs so it's crisp and clean, it still surprises me just how strong and relentless that power delivery is.

[Digga]

supermono said:

Indeed. On the road it's limited of course but when there's a bit of heat in it and you've been running it for a decent amount of time at highish revs so it's crisp and clean, it still surprises me just how strong and relentless that power delivery is.

Mine's got a few miles under it's belt, nearly 67k to be precise, and who knows how it was run in and warmed up by its previous 12 owners (yep, I'm 'lucky' 13!) but it still uses less oil than the manual states is normal and - and this is IMHO the key nature of the beast - uses the least of all when used in anger. Track days, long European trips with autobahn blats, is always where it seems to thrive. It used absolutely nothing at Friday's Oulton RS day.

[supermono]

Brilliant. Mine's 54k now so not far behind and never have to add between services, although these days only a couple of k pa.

Any market watchers care to predict the bid from the Porsche main dealer next to the Ferrari dealer? Third owner (10 years), 54k miles (36 done by me), OPC stamp every April, last 10 from same dealer (Cambridge), polar, nomex buckets, fair amount of carbon, dead stock, great condition PCCB, recent total suspension rebuild by Center Gravity. Only mark is one wheel has a kerb mark (goddammit)

About to get serviced / MOT.

[911Thrasher]

BUT BUT is it blue or red?

[supermono]

Polar Silver -- haha so blueish.

[Slippydiff]

supermono said:

Brilliant. Mine's 54k now so not far behind and never have to add between services, although these days only a couple of k pa.

Any market watchers care to predict the bid from the Porsche main dealer next to the Ferrari dealer? Third owner (10 years), 54k miles (36 done by me), OPC stamp every April, last 10 from same dealer (Cambridge), polar, nomex buckets, fair amount of carbon, dead stock, great condition PCCB, recent total suspension rebuild by Center Gravity. Only mark is one wheel has a kerb mark (goddammit)

About to get serviced / MOT.

£75k or some other such nonsense, Dave. Which begs the question, why do they call you Dave ?

[supermono]

Very close -- 80k. Last year I was offered 90k unseen by an OPC.

Apparently there are four for sale (according to trade bid pitch) and the closest in mileage to mine is 80k. It's got to be two years now since I last saw any GT2 for sale at sub 100k and today only one on autotrader that's been knocking about a little while, non-OPC service history and changes away from stock (suspension, spoiler, etc) at 120k

I guess the traders have to put food on their plates somehow but honestly either Porsche sellers are chronically naive or there's so much stock washing about they don't need to buy.

Still at least it puts the idea of an "upgrade" to Ferrari to bed for a little while -- even if I had 50k to lay out on the scud, there's no way it's 50k more of a car than mine.

[lemmingjames]

supermono said:

even if I had 50k to lay out on the scud, there's no way it's 50k more of a car than mine.

JZM quoted more if i recall?

But could you not say that about any car your looking to upgrade to?

[Slickhillsy]

supermono said:

Still at least it puts the idea of an "upgrade" to Ferrari to bed for a little while -- even if I had 50k to lay out on the scud, there's no way it's 50k more of a car than mine.

Thought I'd offer some Scud ownership advice in the interest of balance on here (we are the Porsche side of the fence after all)

If you haven't already you should go drive a decent example of one and then ask yourself that question...

I've owned my Scud for nearly three years now and love it to bits. Came from a 997 GT3 after a run of previous Ferraris and nothing really comes close in terms of sense of occasion and drama. Plus it's light and has 510 bhp it's no slouch either even by modern standards. The power delivery is so linear, none if this Turbo lag malarkey. What I love about it is that you can be crawling at 15 mph and still have a big grin, or pin it and have a bigger one.
One thing I would advise getting is a remote valve switch for the standard exhaust (the Capristo unit works well at circa £500). Then you can have the valves open all the time or for when the wife gets in the car and you want a bit more civility, close them.

I did for a very brief moment think whether I should swap it for a 458 but after going in a mates decided not to. Stunning car as it is it just isn't raw enough...

Only car I'd consider 'swapping' it for (including any Porsche) would be a Speciale.

Enjoy the journey and good luck.

[Slippydiff]

Slickhillsy said:

Thought I'd offer some Scud ownership advice in the interest of balance on here (we are the Porsche side of the fence after all)

If you haven't already you should go drive a decent example of one and then ask yourself that question...

I've owned my Scud for nearly three years now and love it to bits. Came from a 997 GT3 after a run of previous Ferraris and nothing really comes close in terms of sense of occasion and drama. Plus it's light and has 510 bhp it's no slouch either even by modern standards. The power delivery is so linear, none if this Turbo lag malarkey. What I love about it is that you can be crawling at 15 mph and still have a big grin, or pin it and have a bigger one.
One thing I would advise getting is a remote valve switch for the standard exhaust (the Capristo unit works well at circa £500). Then you can have the valves open all the time or for when the wife gets in the car and you want a bit more civility, close them.

I did for a very brief moment think whether I should swap it for a 458 but after going in a mates decided not to. Stunning car as it is it just isn't raw enough...

Only car I'd consider 'swapping' it for (including any Porsche) would be a Speciale.

Enjoy the journey and good luck.

I've no dog in this fight, but a large part of the GT2's appeal for me (I've had a couple of them) was it's brutal, non-linear power delivery/"turbo lag malarkey". It's the polar opposite of the linear power delivery of the Scud's NA engine, additionally the GT2 comes without all the noise and thunder of the Ferrari, it's that very discreet'ness that made the GT2/Turbo so appealing.

I see too much of the shouty Ferrari thing (from a noise perspective, not the general car concept) and it leaves me cold, but what's more surprising is the amount of owners that take an already noisy 355/360/430/458. and insist they make it noisier still.... There seems to be something about Ferrari ownership (not ALL ferrari owners I grant you) that brings out the inner child (or maybe I've just been watching too many Youtube videos ..... ? ? ? )

I mean, don't get me wrong, this sounds simply epic : https://youtu.be/BB3ZaCAf9pA?t=336

But could I live with it ? the attention it would garner or take it touring ? No chance

[supermono]

Regarding the noise I'm with slippy on this. The slightly muted sound of the GT2 is big for me and frankly when I was driving a 458 a short while ago the amount of banging and crackling on the overrun and screaming up the revs was super exciting if I was on the racetrack but seems a bit over the top on the road.

Although in the right car I'm certainly able to tolerate that noise but it's not an attraction I'm afraid. Same as my bikes I've never seen the need to make them loud for the sake of it.

The Scud information is useful though thanks, that dark one of yours looks sensational.

[Slickhillsy]

Agreed. If I were to live with the with any kind of frequent use then yes it would become warring. Used for big trips and sunny blasts then it not a problem and a real thrill. As mentioned I would definitely go for a remote valve switch as you can even have it closed all the time. When closed it's no louder than my stock Audi even allowing for normal conversation in the cabin with road noise being louder.

I would say you'd really need to think about it's intended use for the car. Mine is mostly A to A and the noise for me is not a factor it's more the size and special awareness needed. Coming from the Porsche it will be a big readjustment, totally doable though.

[supermono]

Use wise mostly A-A driving and the occasional blast away for a nice weekend / euro trip plus a bit of trackday stuff. Ideal I'd say for either car

[911Thrasher]

mine is not a Scud but a Stradale at the moment: and it's way too loud for daily usage and more importantly track usage!!!

I actually had a 997.1 GT3RS a couple years back...and now trying to see if I can go back to a GT3RS (it is the best all rounder), GT2RS would be great but way too expensive

[supermono]

Just seen the PH car list http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds?Category=us...

I'm puzzled about the dealer who's claiming 4 GT2 are for sale, and 80k is the price.

Naturally I'm thinking he's just a chancer trying to make 40k from my stupidity, however I would appreciate knowing the honest value of my car...


Also, any new buyers or confirmed sale prices?

Edited by supermono on Wednesday 15th March 15:04

[IMI A]

Frankly some of the asking prices are la la land. In your shoes I'd be tempted to SOR the car at 911 Virgin for a sensible price say £99,995 - £110,000. They'd take small commission of between 5-10% out of her and warranty to new buyer.

Having cash then puts you in a better position to buy the Fezza. Personally I'd take the 458 over a Scud. If you feel brave switch the traction off when on track ; )