720 Macca

[hunter 66]

A friend went to the launch ......... and this has moved the ballpark significantly ...... as they concentrate on sportscars like Porsche used to they are getting better and better ......... Now have a reasonably priced super car that will outperform all the hyper cars .
Interesting ......
I still will love the feel of a 911 ...... though

[IMI A]

not sure about its nose job. How much is it? Also reliability and sound has always been an issue for many.

Every time I've seen 12 C or 650 S at events invariably one of them has broken down. I hope they've cracked it as I'd love to buy a British hand made car.

[hunter 66]

Base price 220 k ..............but depends on extras these days , just how much carbon .... but for a car that will out perform the P1..
A big change ahead

[lemmingjames]

hunter 66 said:

Base price 220 k ..............but depends on extras these days , just how much carbon .... but for a car that will out perform the P1..
A big change ahead

i guess it depends on how deep your pockets are as to whether or not £220+k is a reasonable cost

[s2000db]

So they've produced a car that's as quick as a P1 and hence faster than a 675, that's much cheaper??

Fill your boots! Used values are going to plummet.... lol

[Davey S2]

hunter 66 said:

Now have a reasonably priced super car that will outperform all the hyper cars .

Reasonable compared with other cars in the same performance sector perhaps.

Porsche don't have anything to compete in this sector. They have the GT3RS / Turbo S which are a max £150K or the 918 which is mega money.

[DMC2]

Davey S2 said:

Reasonable compared with other cars in the same performance sector perhaps.

Porsche don't have anything to compete in this sector. They have the GT3RS / Turbo S which are a max £150K or the 918 which is mega money.

Porsche's equivalent coming soon...

[dvshannow]

think cars like this will put a sensible cap on values of things like the GT3 RS, which will cascade down to GT3 etc

not competing directly ofc, but making the market more sensible again as the void of goot dars in the 150-50k bracket was allowing silly supply demand technical s to price up Porsche GT cars

[The Surveyor]

s2000db said:

So they've produced a car that's as quick as a P1 and hence faster than a 675, that's much cheaper??

Fill your boots! Used values are going to plummet.... lol

Is that not like saying the new Turbo S is faster than a 911 'R' therefore the value of the 'R' is going to plummet because everybody knows that's utter tosh!

The 720 doesn't have any direct competition from Porsche as it sits in a bracket above both in cost and performance. The 570s and 570GT are a closer competitor to the 911 range.

Hopefully, it will draw a new spanking Carrera GT out of Stuttgart to go head-to-head with the 720 and leave the 918 as the P1 rival.

[s2000db]

The Surveyor said:

s2000db said:

So they've produced a car that's as quick as a P1 and hence faster than a 675, that's much cheaper??

Fill your boots! Used values are going to plummet.... lol

Is that not like saying the new Turbo S is faster than a 911 'R' therefore the value of the 'R' is going to plummet because everybody knows that's utter tosh!

The 720 doesn't have any direct competition from Porsche as it sits in a bracket above both in cost and performance. The 570s and 570GT are a closer competitor to the 911 range.

Hopefully, it will draw a new spanking Carrera GT out of Stuttgart to go head-to-head with the 720 and leave the 918 as the P1 rival.

No, I meant it will push 650 and 675 values down, as those drivers that have to have the latest/fastest cars, trade into the newer model.
Mac doesn't yet have the brand loyalty/heritage of the more established brands, and the way they can chop and change parts around their chassis, means that there's continual scope for releasing a constant stream of variations, making the previous iteration 'old hat' imo..

[hunter 66]

Yes my OP intimate mid engine V8 sooner than we think ....

[The Surveyor]

s2000db said:

No, I meant it will push 650 and 675 values down, as those drivers that have to have the latest/fastest cars, trade into the newer model.
Mac doesn't yet have the brand loyalty/heritage of the more established brands, and the way they can chop and change parts around their chassis, means that there's continual scope for releasing a constant stream of variations, making the previous iteration 'old hat' imo..

I think I know what you meant, but I just don't see how you can associate McLaren taking such a big step forward, making so many fresh headlines with such a ground breaking car (if the headlines are to be believed) with a drop in the value of their specialist 675LT limited edition 'halo' car. The 650s value was always blighted by the disappointing reception to the 12c but again, any increase in the brand awareness and popularity can only help to keep their value rising. I'm sorry to burst your bubble on this, but the values of the 12c are rising and this new car certainly won't do anything to slow that, quite the opposite.

You make a point about McLaren chopping and changing models around a common chassis, something Porsche have been living off for decades with the multiple versions of the 911. GT, GTS, R, GT2, GT3, GT£ RS, Turbo, Turbo S, etc.... all based on the same steel shell with the same basic flat 6 (being very over-simplistic).

McLaren is a relatively new brand to the road-car market but their heritage can't be in dispute, they're one of the founding fathers of F1 racing, and the reality is that they will continue to take sales off Ferrari, Lamborghini and indeed Porsche.

[IMI A]

hunter 66 said:

Yes my OP intimate mid engine V8 sooner than we think ....

For the chosen few? I hope Mcl knocks Porsche for six in the sports car market. One thing they do need to trim back are running costs. For example 18000 GBP for a 12C gearbox when a rubber seal fails is way too much.

I cannot see 12 C values rising when you watch vids showing ownership experiences like this. It was their first production car so we can give them a period of grace in my view. Hope the 720 s turns out to be the pick of current supercars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znSziiek0j8&t=...

[The Surveyor]

IMI A said:

For the chosen few? I hope Mcl knocks Porsche for six in the sports car market. One thing they do need to trim back are running costs. For example 18000 GBP for a 12C gearbox when a rubber seal fails is way too much.

McLaren will replace the whole gearbox under warranty. If you're outside the McLaren warranty and have chosen not to extend your warranty then you're on your own which isn't any different to any other manufacturer on that score.

IMI A said:

I cannot see 12 C values rising when you watch vids showing ownership experiences like this. It was their first production car so we can give them a period of grace in my view. Hope the 720 s turns out to be the pick of current supercars.

The first cars certainly have a reputation for being fragile, but just take a look in the classified and you'll see the prices of 12c are certainly creeping up.

[s2000db]

The Surveyor said:

s2000db said:

No, I meant it will push 650 and 675 values down, as those drivers that have to have the latest/fastest cars, trade into the newer model.
Mac doesn't yet have the brand loyalty/heritage of the more established brands, and the way they can chop and change parts around their chassis, means that there's continual scope for releasing a constant stream of variations, making the previous iteration 'old hat' imo..

I think I know what you meant, but I just don't see how you can associate McLaren taking such a big step forward, making so many fresh headlines with such a ground breaking car (if the headlines are to be believed) with a drop in the value of their specialist 675LT limited edition 'halo' car. The 650s value was always blighted by the disappointing reception to the 12c but again, any increase in the brand awareness and popularity can only help to keep their value rising. I'm sorry to burst your bubble on this, but the values of the 12c are rising and this new car certainly won't do anything to slow that, quite the opposite.

You make a point about McLaren chopping and changing models around a common chassis, something Porsche have been living off for decades with the multiple versions of the 911. GT, GTS, R, GT2, GT3, GT£ RS, Turbo, Turbo S, etc.... all based on the same steel shell with the same basic flat 6 (being very over-simplistic).

McLaren is a relatively new brand to the road-car market but their heritage can't be in dispute, they're one of the founding fathers of F1 racing, and the reality is that they will continue to take sales off Ferrari, Lamborghini and indeed Porsche.

I agree that Porsche 'badge engineering' is even worse, however it's a model that's stood up to the test of time rather well...

Anyhow let's revisit this a year after the 720's been delivered, and see then...

[isaldiri]

IMI A said:

For the chosen few? I hope Mcl knocks Porsche for six in the sports car market. One thing they do need to trim back are running costs. For example 18000 GBP for a 12C gearbox when a rubber seal fails is way too much.

Just for comparison's sake, what's the cost of Porsche replacing a PDK or PDK-s gearbox? I'd be quite surprised if ZF didn't charge something very similar to what graziano are charging Mclaren for the box.

You do seem to keep on going on about the 12c's reliability. I've an early car. I've seen more gt3s out of action on track than Mclarens to be honest....

[IMI A]

isaldiri said:

Just for comparison's sake, what's the cost of Porsche replacing a PDK or PDK-s gearbox? I'd be quite surprised if ZF didn't charge something very similar to what graziano are charging Mclaren for the box.

You do seem to keep on going on about the 12c's reliability. I've an early car. I've seen more gt3s out of action on track than Mclarens to be honest....

I'm not going on about reliability just repeating owners views - pls do not shoot the messenger!

GT3s weaknesses are relatively easy and cheap to fix and also more GT3s on track so obviously proportionately more cars will go wrong. I'm not having ago at Mcl or 12C but 18000 GBP when a simple seal goes wrong seems OTT.

Re PDK I agree in the future out of warranty it may be an issue but independents have already come up with solutions for PDK not only fixes but improvements to take more power.

I agree though Porsche are no better. Just look at the issues with 991.1 GT3 engine.

In warranty I think the 12C is an interesting used buy if you can also afford the associated running costs and don't mind forking out 3500GBP per annum for a warranty.

5000 GBP for running (service + warranty) a supercar doesn't seem like a bad deal but at 220000 GBP I would personally say the 720 S is a better ownership proposition as it will come with 3 years warranty included and all he glitches of previous models ironed out - its the car to have if you want a Macca.

[isaldiri]

IMI A said:

I'm not going on about reliability just repeating owners views - pls do not shoot the messenger!

GT3s weaknesses are relatively easy and cheap to fix and also more GT3s on track so obviously proportionately more cars will go wrong. I'm not having ago at Mcl or 12C but 18000 GBP when a simple seal goes wrong seems OTT.

Re PDK I agree in the future out of warranty it may be an issue but independents have already come up with solutions for PDK not only fixes but improvements to take more power.

I agree though Porsche are no better. Just look at the issues with 991.1 GT3 engine.

In warranty I think the 12C is an interesting used buy if you can also afford the associated running costs and don't mind forking out 3500GBP per annum for a warranty.

5000 GBP for running (service + warranty) a supercar doesn't seem like a bad deal but at 220000 GBP I would personally say the 720 S is a better ownership proposition as it will come with 3 years warranty included and all he glitches of previous models ironed out - its the car to have if you want a Macca.

I agree the running costs are pretty high on the Mclaren and very much so in comparison to Porsche. However, it's a £180k car as new not based on anything else so no economies of scale or parts sharing. I wouldn't personally own any modern very complex tech car without a warranty, not a 12c, not a 458 and certainly not a 991 gt3 so the gearbox replacement cost on the Mclaren isn't really an issue for me (well unless I explode the box on track touch wood it doesn't happen...) However, if you're going to raise the gearbox replacement, it should be compared against what Porsche are going to charge for a new PDK box. Independents fixing it are neither here nor there as a fair comparison. As I did say on the Mclaren forum, I can't really believe that one couldn't approach Litchfield or someone else who deals with dual clutch boxes to repair the seal and get it fixed cheaper than the cost of a new box albeit at the cost of never being able to warranty the car again.

The 720 carries a fair bit of new tech to be honest from what I gather. I wouldn't necessarily expect all glitches to have been ironed out previously... It's effectively a new model (P14 vs P11) with presumably some of the issues that one associates with new models. It's priced remarkable well for what it is though.

P.S since you're repeating owner views here's one - 28 trackdays over 34 months, one lambda sensor and one secondary airpump replaced under warranty, neither of which stopped me from driving the car.

[The Surveyor]

s2000db said:

I agree that Porsche 'badge engineering' is even worse, however it's a model that's stood up to the test of time rather well...

Anyhow let's revisit this a year after the 720's been delivered, and see then...

I certainly don't see the 'badge engineering' as a bad thing, it's a recognisable format that works well for the 911, it maintains a direct link back to the very first 911. The 911 is afterall a masterpiece or rear-engine flat 6 technology, McLaren are just trying to do the same with a mid-engine turbo-charged V8 & carbon tub 'brand' format.

I hope you're right on the McLaren values though as I'll be after one for the summer

[IMI A]

isaldiri said:

P.S since you're repeating owner views here's one - 28 trackdays over 34 months, one lambda sensor and one secondary airpump replaced under warranty, neither of which stopped me from driving the car

Thats good to hear. The 12C is really growing on me. I originally thought it was too bland but from design perspective its far more resolved than anything else I've seen so far from M. They look amazing in Volcano Red.