Its almost track season for the GT3 boys....
Discussion
So how many of you that hit the tracks when the sun comes out refreshed your engine hoses over the winter and (if you are in a GT3) looked at your water connections on the engine?
I dont want to re-inflate the is/isn't it a real thing debate on the latter point, its just a mention for the well being of yourself and others around you. If you dont believe this point needs proactive addressing, you can atleast check the physical strength of the connection when you time out your engine hoses and if its a 997 look to see the two lower plastic connections on the heat exchanger arent cracking.
If you dont care about yourself and your car, at least have the decency to think about others.
Do you want to be the guy that causes the below at a point where there isnt such a handy run off?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UhebX-ih5w
The coolant dump was a 997 Turbo in this case.
I dont want to re-inflate the is/isn't it a real thing debate on the latter point, its just a mention for the well being of yourself and others around you. If you dont believe this point needs proactive addressing, you can atleast check the physical strength of the connection when you time out your engine hoses and if its a 997 look to see the two lower plastic connections on the heat exchanger arent cracking.
If you dont care about yourself and your car, at least have the decency to think about others.
Do you want to be the guy that causes the below at a point where there isnt such a handy run off?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UhebX-ih5w
The coolant dump was a 997 Turbo in this case.
fioran0 said:
Do you want to be the guy that causes the below at a point where there isnt such a handy run off?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UhebX-ih5w
Good advice, Neil. Lucky for that chap he is on a Tilke circuit. Boring, grippy and lots of run off.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UhebX-ih5w
I once lost it through the bowl at Dubai (technical, relatively less grippy and less run off). GT3 in front had blown a coolant hose.
Welding is the way to go.
How does one tell the coolant pipes are about to go? What is the actual fix besides weld the coolant pips with sharkwerks fittings?
I understand that loads of Gt3s out there are sitting time bombs for themselves and others on track with them. What does pinning the coolant pipes mean?
I understand that loads of Gt3s out there are sitting time bombs for themselves and others on track with them. What does pinning the coolant pipes mean?
HokumPokum said:
How does one tell the coolant pipes are about to go?
Frequently you can't, that's the problemHokumPokum said:
What is the actual fix besides weld the coolant pips with sharkwerks fittings?
Here's the problem explained and the fix which doesn't utilise welding or pinning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIl2-vBAnvk
HokumPokum said:
I understand that loads of Gt3s out there are sitting time bombs for themselves and others on track with them. What does pinning the coolant pipes mean?
Pinning explained with images here :http://rennlist.com/forums/996-turbo-forum/613441-...
Is the gen2 997s still reckoned to have this problem per the RL thread? Last time I stopped by Manthey they didn't seem to think the gen2 had the same kind of issue as the gen1 or 996s and thought if i wanted to be err on the safe side, changing the hoses would be sufficient rather than welding.
There are two issues.
The hoses themselves (and which applies to all cars that go on track) and the coolant fittings (which apply to the Mezger engines).
The service life of a rubber coolant hose is 4 years, though it can be less if subject to high heat or vibration. Beyond 4 years the rate of failure increases rapidly.
Obviously hoses can last far longer before experiencing a failure. Just looking at an average car pretty much tells us this is the case.
For cars that see track use, the issue specifically is that fallout from failure can be serious and this fallout extends to all those around you. The video above shows how easy it would be to send someone in to a wall.
I know people disagree on the coolant fittings issue and how big an issue it is. I dont know why; the fittings are just push fit and held using loctite, they are clearly coming out in some instances and can be fairly easily removed if you want to, however like the hoses above its up to individuals to evaluate.
The 997 cars have two fitting "upgrades" made from plastic that also are known to crack. Solutions for these two seem to fall in two camps. Source metal replacements from a 3rd party vendor or add them to a hose replacement schedule. There are several methods to address the push fit fittings specifically. Again individuals can evaluate the merits of each for themselves.
The point, in the context of this thread was that as with the hoses, the fallout from failure on track can be serious and extends to all those out with you.
Heading out with hoses that you know to be tick tocking away, or indeed with coolant fittings that may be suspect always strikes me as pretty irresponsible when viewed in the light of the video clip posted earlier. Others are of course free to take their own view on risk and their obligations to others.
Ive seen plenty of cars wrecked and nearly wrecked from coolant spills over the years that I make sure to keep my own house in order on that front for any car that goes near a track.
Having seen that video this weekend, it made me once again wonder how many people used the winter months to take care of jobs related to such things.
Apologies for the dull public service broadcast.
The hoses themselves (and which applies to all cars that go on track) and the coolant fittings (which apply to the Mezger engines).
The service life of a rubber coolant hose is 4 years, though it can be less if subject to high heat or vibration. Beyond 4 years the rate of failure increases rapidly.
Obviously hoses can last far longer before experiencing a failure. Just looking at an average car pretty much tells us this is the case.
For cars that see track use, the issue specifically is that fallout from failure can be serious and this fallout extends to all those around you. The video above shows how easy it would be to send someone in to a wall.
I know people disagree on the coolant fittings issue and how big an issue it is. I dont know why; the fittings are just push fit and held using loctite, they are clearly coming out in some instances and can be fairly easily removed if you want to, however like the hoses above its up to individuals to evaluate.
The 997 cars have two fitting "upgrades" made from plastic that also are known to crack. Solutions for these two seem to fall in two camps. Source metal replacements from a 3rd party vendor or add them to a hose replacement schedule. There are several methods to address the push fit fittings specifically. Again individuals can evaluate the merits of each for themselves.
The point, in the context of this thread was that as with the hoses, the fallout from failure on track can be serious and extends to all those out with you.
Heading out with hoses that you know to be tick tocking away, or indeed with coolant fittings that may be suspect always strikes me as pretty irresponsible when viewed in the light of the video clip posted earlier. Others are of course free to take their own view on risk and their obligations to others.
Ive seen plenty of cars wrecked and nearly wrecked from coolant spills over the years that I make sure to keep my own house in order on that front for any car that goes near a track.
Having seen that video this weekend, it made me once again wonder how many people used the winter months to take care of jobs related to such things.
Apologies for the dull public service broadcast.
HokumPokum,
As Henry said, unfortunately you cant. Hoses fail from the inside generally. The coolant eats at the reinforcement and one day they just split.
On the fittings side its completely hit or miss. Ive heard of cars put in to have this addressed where all but one of the fittings have been nice and tight but one was barely hanging in there, literally a drive or two away from total failure.
One can weld the original fittings into the housings if they choose to go this route. Pinning involves drilling the housing and fitting and securing it with a screw (note a screw in the proper sense, not some self tapping thing left over from an Ikea self build). The thinking here is that it provides some added support to the loctite and in the event that this fails, the entire fitting wont be spat from the housing causing you to dump all your coolant. Instead you will develop a more manageable leak.
Isaldiri,
It is an issue still present in the 997.2 though the cars are obviously newer. The 997.2 also has the issue with the plastic necks on the heat exchanger housing mentioned in the post above that applies to the 997.1 also.
As Henry said, unfortunately you cant. Hoses fail from the inside generally. The coolant eats at the reinforcement and one day they just split.
On the fittings side its completely hit or miss. Ive heard of cars put in to have this addressed where all but one of the fittings have been nice and tight but one was barely hanging in there, literally a drive or two away from total failure.
One can weld the original fittings into the housings if they choose to go this route. Pinning involves drilling the housing and fitting and securing it with a screw (note a screw in the proper sense, not some self tapping thing left over from an Ikea self build). The thinking here is that it provides some added support to the loctite and in the event that this fails, the entire fitting wont be spat from the housing causing you to dump all your coolant. Instead you will develop a more manageable leak.
Isaldiri,
It is an issue still present in the 997.2 though the cars are obviously newer. The 997.2 also has the issue with the plastic necks on the heat exchanger housing mentioned in the post above that applies to the 997.1 also.
HokumPokum said:
thanks for the timely reminder. I'll be extra careful behind GT3s
HaHa.Its all really part of master plan to make sure that Caymans, and in particular the new GT4 stay well behind the king GT3.
Joking aside, the hose part applies to all. Though the post was aimed at those with GT3's since I know many hit the tracks and hit them fast.
Seeing the video reminded me to tell folks to be safe, both to themselves and to others.
Slippydiff said:
HokumPokum said:
How does one tell the coolant pipes are about to go?
Frequently you can't, that's the problemHokumPokum said:
What is the actual fix besides weld the coolant pips with sharkwerks fittings?
Here's the problem explained and the fix which doesn't utilise welding or pinning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIl2-vBAnvk
fioran0 said:
It is an issue still present in the 997.2 though the cars are obviously newer. The 997.2 also has the issue with the plastic necks on the heat exchanger housing mentioned in the post above that applies to the 997.1 also.
Thanks. Will get someone who knows what he is doing to suggest something before i get round to tracking the RS later this year then. I had mine welded by JZM when the engine was out for other work - not overly expensive - but the cost for getting the engine out isn't cheap - so was worth doing at the same time. Budget about £2.5k or thereabouts to include engine removal/ refitting. Oh and change all the hoses at the same time.
That's a good watch Slippy, shows how easy it is once it's removed. I carry JB weld as part of my tool kit but wether I'd be able to get to and remove an insert is another matter.
I'm surprised nobodies copied the OEM parts with the inserts cast into them.
Mousem40 said:
I like this solution a lot. Is it available in the uk? If not who does, and how much is the welding alternative? I think pinning is a bit half- assed.
I think in fairness the pinning method is more to avoid the sudden catastrophic loss when an insert blows out. The grub screw should keep the insert in place and the coolant will leak much more slowly where the bond has failed ?I'm surprised nobodies copied the OEM parts with the inserts cast into them.
Mousem40 said:
I like this solution a lot. Is it available in the uk? If not who does, and how much is the welding alternative? I think pinning is a bit half- assed.
Matt at Fearnsport has the inserts, but they're in aluminium alloy (and made slightly larger than the originals so they're more of an interference fit) to enable them to be welded to the housing.I'm sure if you asked him he could have them produced in stainless and have them knurled too.
If the above sounds too much grief, Matt will get the alloy inserts welded into the housing by one of the foremost aluminium motorsport radiator fabricators.
Slippydiff said:
Matt at Fearnsport has the inserts, but they're in aluminium alloy (and made slightly larger than the originals so they're more of an interference fit) to enable them to be welded to the housing.
I'm sure if you asked him he could have them produced in stainless and have them knurled too.
If the above sounds too much grief, Matt will get the alloy inserts welded into the housing by one of the foremost aluminium motorsport radiator fabricators.
I had the welded joints done in 2012 by Matt as part of a much larger project, together with replacing all the engine bay hoses + the two big ally pipes that run down the firewall (pinholes forming). Towards the end of last year I had a hose pop off & dump coolant all over the chicane at Donington - it caused a red that lasted nearly an hour!. The car did a full 360 but no damage sustained luckily. The offending hose had shrunk to the point where the jubilee clip couldn't hold it. I had Matt replace every rubber hose & clip forward of the engine; he said about 50% were quite shrunken. These were all hoses that had been in place since the car was built in late 2003...I'm sure if you asked him he could have them produced in stainless and have them knurled too.
If the above sounds too much grief, Matt will get the alloy inserts welded into the housing by one of the foremost aluminium motorsport radiator fabricators.
The offending hose:
All the hoses that got replaced:
In preparation for Ring and Spa! Argue all you want but this is way cheaper than an off due to coolant spill. Went Sharkwerks route.
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Cheers
Slodge
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Slodge
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