The 996 GT2 "Widowmaker" tag. Time to explode the myth.
Discussion
In light of this post on another thread :
Other 996 GT2 owners, ex-owners (standard or modified) and others that have driven these superb cars (for a minimum of 1000 miles), do please post your experiences from behind the wheel.
Sorry, those of you who've experienced these cars from the passenger seat needn't post.
Ok, this "Widowmaker" nonsense needs to stop, right here, right now
I've owned two of these phenomenal cars. The first example was an evil handling motherf*ckingsonofab*tch (now owned by PH'er Consul) :
It ended up at some of the best GT specialists in the UK, and in the process the handling was transformed into something close to how the factory originally intended :
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=447...
I drove that car for 20k miles in all weathers, be it rain, shine, snow or ice.
In that time I can only think of two occasions where I thought "Oh f*ck, prepare to meet your maker you kn*bhead, you've just mistaken ambition for ability".
The first time was whilst driving the car home in the wet (having just collected it from Porsche Reading) when I hit a large section of standing water on the beginning of the Northbound link road between the M40 and the M5. The car slewed sideways, and being the complete muppet I am, I came off the throttle. Whilst that stopped the power induced oversteer, coming off the throttle so abruptly only encouraged the rear end of the car to swing in the opposite direction (rather rapidly). Fortunately the puddle ran out, I gathered the car up (yeh right) and suitably chastened, continued on my way.
The second occasion occurred on a fast section of A road in N. Wales. Not concentrating, I approached an 80 Lepton bend at close to 120 Leptons. Realising my mistake too late, I braked as hard I dared without upsetting the balance/trajectory of the car, avoiding hitting the N/S kerb and also threading the car past the car approaching in the other lane.
It was a tight squeeze (and that was just my sphincter)
But both the car and I escaped undamaged, though the same can't be said for my undercrackers ......
But those were the only two "incidents" that were noteworthy. You'll appreciate that both incidents had nothing to do with the car, both were "operator error".
The second car was a higher mileage example, but a far sweeter handling one. Even on tired suspension and a track biased geo set up, it was a great car to drive, and encouraged you to drive it with a different level of commitment to the first car.
I went on to modify it and make it even better/more fun to drive :
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=104...
As has been said on here on many previous occasions, set up is critical on these cars, as are fresh tyres, healthy dampers, springs, top mounts and bushes. Critical too is the fitment of some decent rear toe links to eradicate the rear steer caused by the standard rear toe arm bushes deflecting under load and causing unwanted toe changes.
Many cars won't have had any ride height/corner weight adjustments in their life, whilst many will have had track biased set ups applied to nullify the understeer built in by the factory. Cars running their original springs and dampers will often have a saggy rear end (the springs sag with heat and age), this means the front to rear rake is incorrect and with the front end waving around in the breeze (only exacerbated by the rear end squatting under the engines non linear power delivery and copious torque), the handling can best be described as "character building".
It's these poorly set up cars, with dampers, springs and tyres past their best, that have garnered the GT2 it's "Widowmaker" tag. That and inexperienced drivers expecting the car to drive like 996 Turbo.
Drive a car with fresh tyres, fresh dampers, correctly set ride heights, corner weights and sensible toe and camber settings, and you'll find the cars to be very benign and enjoyable to drive. And let us not forget they have two feet of rubber on their rear wheels .....
The factory mapping isn't the best, it's non linear, accordingly they can seem rather flat, but when they do come on boost, it can upset the balance of the car (especially a poorly set up example)
I was always of the opinion that the last thing these cars needed was more horsepower, however once my second car had been remapped, I immediately appreciated the improved power delivery, so far from the extra power making the car more difficult to drive, it actually made it easier.
Fitting a decent suspension kit (Ruf, Bilsteins, KW's, Ohlins, Motons, JRZ's) takes these cars to another level and in the process makes them easier to drive still.
They can be driven rapidly in the wet without troubling the boost gauge, and on smooth, well surfaced roads, even in the wet, full power can be deployed if the throttle pedal is used judiciously. You'll need to concentrate and learn new levels of anticipation, as you'll find yourself travelling very quickly indeed (hard to believe, but almost as quickly as in a Cayman R)
and you'll also need to be able to read the road for changes in surface, cambers and bumps.
Be prepared to put the effort in whilst driving them and the 996 GT2 will reward in a way a 996 Turbo never can.
Buy one, you'll not regret it
RWD cossie wil said:
I think I need a GT2 to keep the turbo company!!! Still, considering how quick a tuned turbo is, I'd think a GT2 is a real handful if you are not careful, I consider myself to be a pretty good driver with considerable rear wheel drive experience, and having owned a turbo for 9 months now, I'm not ashamed to say I think a GT would probably be a bit of a daunting prospect to drive even remotely quickly!
I felt compelled to respond. Other 996 GT2 owners, ex-owners (standard or modified) and others that have driven these superb cars (for a minimum of 1000 miles), do please post your experiences from behind the wheel.
Sorry, those of you who've experienced these cars from the passenger seat needn't post.
Ok, this "Widowmaker" nonsense needs to stop, right here, right now
I've owned two of these phenomenal cars. The first example was an evil handling motherf*ckingsonofab*tch (now owned by PH'er Consul) :
It ended up at some of the best GT specialists in the UK, and in the process the handling was transformed into something close to how the factory originally intended :
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=447...
I drove that car for 20k miles in all weathers, be it rain, shine, snow or ice.
In that time I can only think of two occasions where I thought "Oh f*ck, prepare to meet your maker you kn*bhead, you've just mistaken ambition for ability".
The first time was whilst driving the car home in the wet (having just collected it from Porsche Reading) when I hit a large section of standing water on the beginning of the Northbound link road between the M40 and the M5. The car slewed sideways, and being the complete muppet I am, I came off the throttle. Whilst that stopped the power induced oversteer, coming off the throttle so abruptly only encouraged the rear end of the car to swing in the opposite direction (rather rapidly). Fortunately the puddle ran out, I gathered the car up (yeh right) and suitably chastened, continued on my way.
The second occasion occurred on a fast section of A road in N. Wales. Not concentrating, I approached an 80 Lepton bend at close to 120 Leptons. Realising my mistake too late, I braked as hard I dared without upsetting the balance/trajectory of the car, avoiding hitting the N/S kerb and also threading the car past the car approaching in the other lane.
It was a tight squeeze (and that was just my sphincter)
But both the car and I escaped undamaged, though the same can't be said for my undercrackers ...... But those were the only two "incidents" that were noteworthy. You'll appreciate that both incidents had nothing to do with the car, both were "operator error".
The second car was a higher mileage example, but a far sweeter handling one. Even on tired suspension and a track biased geo set up, it was a great car to drive, and encouraged you to drive it with a different level of commitment to the first car.
I went on to modify it and make it even better/more fun to drive :
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=104...
As has been said on here on many previous occasions, set up is critical on these cars, as are fresh tyres, healthy dampers, springs, top mounts and bushes. Critical too is the fitment of some decent rear toe links to eradicate the rear steer caused by the standard rear toe arm bushes deflecting under load and causing unwanted toe changes.
Many cars won't have had any ride height/corner weight adjustments in their life, whilst many will have had track biased set ups applied to nullify the understeer built in by the factory. Cars running their original springs and dampers will often have a saggy rear end (the springs sag with heat and age), this means the front to rear rake is incorrect and with the front end waving around in the breeze (only exacerbated by the rear end squatting under the engines non linear power delivery and copious torque), the handling can best be described as "character building".
It's these poorly set up cars, with dampers, springs and tyres past their best, that have garnered the GT2 it's "Widowmaker" tag. That and inexperienced drivers expecting the car to drive like 996 Turbo.
Drive a car with fresh tyres, fresh dampers, correctly set ride heights, corner weights and sensible toe and camber settings, and you'll find the cars to be very benign and enjoyable to drive. And let us not forget they have two feet of rubber on their rear wheels .....
The factory mapping isn't the best, it's non linear, accordingly they can seem rather flat, but when they do come on boost, it can upset the balance of the car (especially a poorly set up example)
I was always of the opinion that the last thing these cars needed was more horsepower, however once my second car had been remapped, I immediately appreciated the improved power delivery, so far from the extra power making the car more difficult to drive, it actually made it easier.
Fitting a decent suspension kit (Ruf, Bilsteins, KW's, Ohlins, Motons, JRZ's) takes these cars to another level and in the process makes them easier to drive still.
They can be driven rapidly in the wet without troubling the boost gauge, and on smooth, well surfaced roads, even in the wet, full power can be deployed if the throttle pedal is used judiciously. You'll need to concentrate and learn new levels of anticipation, as you'll find yourself travelling very quickly indeed (hard to believe, but almost as quickly as in a Cayman R)
and you'll also need to be able to read the road for changes in surface, cambers and bumps. Be prepared to put the effort in whilst driving them and the 996 GT2 will reward in a way a 996 Turbo never can.
Buy one, you'll not regret it
A good thread Henry!
I've had my GT2 just over 4 years and am delighted to report that both the car and myself are still in one piece..! My trackday- cherry was popped with this car and my second ever trackday was at a wet Goodwood! Yes, you have to drive the car with some care but for me, that's part of the fun of owning such a vehicle. And when those turbos spool up, oh mamma. I'm reasonably confident I will never own a faster car. Yes, it has it's faults - a mk1 GT3 (996) is a more precise car to drive and makes the '2 a little unwieldy but I would certainly recommend anyone with a passion for 911s to have a go in one.
I've had my GT2 just over 4 years and am delighted to report that both the car and myself are still in one piece..! My trackday- cherry was popped with this car and my second ever trackday was at a wet Goodwood! Yes, you have to drive the car with some care but for me, that's part of the fun of owning such a vehicle. And when those turbos spool up, oh mamma. I'm reasonably confident I will never own a faster car. Yes, it has it's faults - a mk1 GT3 (996) is a more precise car to drive and makes the '2 a little unwieldy but I would certainly recommend anyone with a passion for 911s to have a go in one.
Edited by JamieG on Sunday 16th November 09:14
I agree "Widowmaker" as a reference to the 996 GT2 might be exaggerated. All cars can do that.
Although mine is not modified in the way yours was Henry, so standard suspension bits with just a geometry set up by Phil Hindley at Tech 9, it has so far been no drama on the road wet or dry. On track days it lets me know when it is not going to co-operate with unrealistic expectations of grip and driver talent in a way that allows recovery of composure without feeling out of control. This is also probably because self preservation kicks in and am seldom aiming for 100% commitment. However over the last 9 years covering over 25k miles on road and track days has allowed some track day exploration towards where 100% commitment sits, especially on some safer run off corners.
It helps to play on something like a kick plate skid pan in a GT2, or any car, so you know what it does feel like when it is out of balance in the wet. Mid engine cars seem to be the tricky ones to catch when they let go.
Although mine is not modified in the way yours was Henry, so standard suspension bits with just a geometry set up by Phil Hindley at Tech 9, it has so far been no drama on the road wet or dry. On track days it lets me know when it is not going to co-operate with unrealistic expectations of grip and driver talent in a way that allows recovery of composure without feeling out of control. This is also probably because self preservation kicks in and am seldom aiming for 100% commitment. However over the last 9 years covering over 25k miles on road and track days has allowed some track day exploration towards where 100% commitment sits, especially on some safer run off corners.
It helps to play on something like a kick plate skid pan in a GT2, or any car, so you know what it does feel like when it is out of balance in the wet. Mid engine cars seem to be the tricky ones to catch when they let go.
Slippydiff said:
"The second occasion occurred on a fast section of A road in N. Wales. Not concentrating, I approached an 80 Lepton bend at close to 120 Leptons. Realising my mistake too late, I braked as hard I dared without upsetting the balance/trajectory of the car, avoiding hitting the N/S kerb and also threading the car past the car approaching in the other lane.
It was a tight squeeze (and that was just my sphincter) eek But both the car and I escaped undamaged, though the same can't be said for my undercrackers ."
It was a tight squeeze (and that was just my sphincter) eek But both the car and I escaped undamaged, though the same can't be said for my undercrackers ."
contango said:
Reading the above, it sounds more like the owners have the potential to be the widowmakers, 120 nonchalent Mph on a public road with on coming traffic..... No wonder PH removed the "Speed matters" from their logo!
Precisely my point, hence my use of the term "operator error" that you conveniently appear to have ignored They're not dangerous "Widowmakers" per se, in reality they require nothing more than a modicum of common sense and concentration to drive quickly.They're quick cars, so much so that 99.9% of other road users won't have the faintest insight into their overtaking capabilities. Many was the time I overtook cars (I believe this practice has been outlawed now ?) in a completely safe fashion with perfect visibility, no upcoming junctions or hazards etc etc. Only to be flashed by an oncoming roaduser half a mile up the road.
Whilst they were frantically tugging on their headlamp flashers, the overtake was done and dusted (and with a simply huge safety margin).
Morning Jamie
An interesting thread Henry, driving mine recently must have re-kindled your enthusiasm.....?!
Mine is a car that was criticised on here by many who jumped on the bandwagon to condemn it, all because it had a poorly repaired front wheel well. A proper repair complete, engine given a clean bill of health following a number of services at Fearnsport, a suspension re-fresh including 3 way Exe-Tc dampers, rebuilt diff to considered spec, remap plus a few very sensible mods, and what do I have??? One of the most engaging drivers cars I have ever experienced.
It goes, stops and turns like a racecar but is utterly comfortable and tractable on the road. It has grunt a Carrera Gt would die for. Being fortunate to drive and race many serious pieces of kit, the 2 still attracts like none other and having had a GTR and 997GT3 neither get anywhere near. The car is Epic.
Highlights:
Chasing Rob Huff round Silverstone in his (now owned by a PH'er) - tricky as he had AO48 R's and I was on PS2's.
Chasing the above in a 458 on the same day - whilst he will never admit it me in my GT2 were quicker...
Getting to look at it's jaw dropping good looks
Lowlights:
Losing it once in the wet on the A5 in 4th gear, what did I expect trying to use it hard with nigh on 600 BHP in the cold, wet with heavily worn Yokos.....?
They are so good I recently bought another, this time an 03 Clubsport.
Mine is a car that was criticised on here by many who jumped on the bandwagon to condemn it, all because it had a poorly repaired front wheel well. A proper repair complete, engine given a clean bill of health following a number of services at Fearnsport, a suspension re-fresh including 3 way Exe-Tc dampers, rebuilt diff to considered spec, remap plus a few very sensible mods, and what do I have??? One of the most engaging drivers cars I have ever experienced.
It goes, stops and turns like a racecar but is utterly comfortable and tractable on the road. It has grunt a Carrera Gt would die for. Being fortunate to drive and race many serious pieces of kit, the 2 still attracts like none other and having had a GTR and 997GT3 neither get anywhere near. The car is Epic.
Highlights:
Chasing Rob Huff round Silverstone in his (now owned by a PH'er) - tricky as he had AO48 R's and I was on PS2's.
Chasing the above in a 458 on the same day - whilst he will never admit it me in my GT2 were quicker...
Getting to look at it's jaw dropping good looks
Lowlights:
Losing it once in the wet on the A5 in 4th gear, what did I expect trying to use it hard with nigh on 600 BHP in the cold, wet with heavily worn Yokos.....?
They are so good I recently bought another, this time an 03 Clubsport.
Had mine now for just over two years, bloody love it. Came from 80/90's RWD cossie and a run of RS turbos before getting the Porsche bug. Been lucky to have several boxsters, 968 CS, 993C4S and a 993 (430bhp) turbo over the last 15 years, none of these cars come close to the GT2.
It really is a drivers car, you have to pay attention behind the wheel when you want to press on, but equally you can do the commute in it if you wanted to. To me it feels like driving a boxster with the performance of the 993 turbo, very agile in a way the 993 turbo can only dream of and its a small cabin by todays standards the 997 and 991 cars feel so much bigger inside and you loose some of the intimacy.
My car was on original tyres when i got it a couple years back on 12k, tread was still at 6mm but they were shot and had gone well past their best, and new set of N4 tyres transformed it.
Understanding the car is part of the enjoyment of ownership, tyre temps and age or important plus letting gearbox oil etc get to temp as once it's all warmed up it's so fluid and the speed can build incredibly quickly.
It is a very difficult car to replace, with the newer 997 and RS versions having set sail.
Think "mistress" is a better moniker for the car, sure it will punish you when you are bad but reward you when you are good......
mine when I purchased it:
and now 2 years later ( and yes I have kept all the original parts, and yes the new parts are all original to ;-))
It really is a drivers car, you have to pay attention behind the wheel when you want to press on, but equally you can do the commute in it if you wanted to. To me it feels like driving a boxster with the performance of the 993 turbo, very agile in a way the 993 turbo can only dream of and its a small cabin by todays standards the 997 and 991 cars feel so much bigger inside and you loose some of the intimacy.
My car was on original tyres when i got it a couple years back on 12k, tread was still at 6mm but they were shot and had gone well past their best, and new set of N4 tyres transformed it.
Understanding the car is part of the enjoyment of ownership, tyre temps and age or important plus letting gearbox oil etc get to temp as once it's all warmed up it's so fluid and the speed can build incredibly quickly.
It is a very difficult car to replace, with the newer 997 and RS versions having set sail.
Think "mistress" is a better moniker for the car, sure it will punish you when you are bad but reward you when you are good......
mine when I purchased it:
and now 2 years later ( and yes I have kept all the original parts, and yes the new parts are all original to ;-))
Edited by unclepezza on Sunday 16th November 16:05
jfp said:
Highlights:
Chasing Rob Huff round Silverstone in his (now owned by a PH'er) - tricky as he had AO48 R's and I was on PS2's.
Chasing the above in a 458 on the same day - whilst he will never admit it me in my GT2 were quicker...
Getting to look at it's jaw dropping good looks.
The b@stard assured me it'd never been tracked! Chasing Rob Huff round Silverstone in his (now owned by a PH'er) - tricky as he had AO48 R's and I was on PS2's.
Chasing the above in a 458 on the same day - whilst he will never admit it me in my GT2 were quicker...
Getting to look at it's jaw dropping good looks.
My old MB car loved it but was never in love it with (sound like a bloody woman ending a relationship there!)
I just don't think I was a capable enough driver to be honest and could never really cover ground quickly in it despite it been a well sorted car.
It bit me on a number of occasions and fortunately I never wrapped it around a tree.
Still lovely things though, but doubt i'd have another, I preferred the GT3 I owned TBH
m33ufo said:
jfp said:
Highlights:
Chasing Rob Huff round Silverstone in his (now owned by a PH'er) - tricky as he had AO48 R's and I was on PS2's.
Chasing the above in a 458 on the same day - whilst he will never admit it me in my GT2 were quicker...
Getting to look at it's jaw dropping good looks.
The b@stard assured me it'd never been tracked! Chasing Rob Huff round Silverstone in his (now owned by a PH'er) - tricky as he had AO48 R's and I was on PS2's.
Chasing the above in a 458 on the same day - whilst he will never admit it me in my GT2 were quicker...
Getting to look at it's jaw dropping good looks.
I had a silver one for a year from new.
Absolutely loved it!
Only sold as an interesting investment opportunity came up and could do with the cash - thankfully it paid off...all be it a couple of years down the line!
I've been thinking recently about getting one again as a weekend car - I just think they look epic and you can never get tired of those turbo's!
Absolutely loved it!
Only sold as an interesting investment opportunity came up and could do with the cash - thankfully it paid off...all be it a couple of years down the line!
I've been thinking recently about getting one again as a weekend car - I just think they look epic and you can never get tired of those turbo's!
I've had mine for a few years now, and in my opinion its not a car you can switch off and just drive. You constantly need to be focused, for me especially along motorways (mine is setup more for track). You always need to keep an eye on how the road changes, camber etc, as she will change lanes - and increase the levels tenfold when it's raining - feeling the rear go light etc aqua planning isn't fun
On trackshe's a joy, and when you get quicker you know it's down to you, and not any driver aids - it's very rewarding, but then don't get too confident or she will remind you you've not tamed her yet!
On trackshe's a joy, and when you get quicker you know it's down to you, and not any driver aids - it's very rewarding, but then don't get too confident or she will remind you you've not tamed her yet!
jfp said:
An interesting thread Henry, driving mine recently must have re-kindled your enthusiasm.....?!
Categorically, absolutely not.Well maybe,
possibly,
probably,
ok, pretty much definitely
m33ufo said:
jfp said:
Highlights:
Chasing Rob Huff round Silverstone in his (now owned by a PH'er) - tricky as he had AO48 R's and I was on PS2's.
Chasing the above in a 458 on the same day - whilst he will never admit it me in my GT2 were quicker...
Getting to look at it's jaw dropping good looks.
The b@stard assured me it'd never been tracked! Chasing Rob Huff round Silverstone in his (now owned by a PH'er) - tricky as he had AO48 R's and I was on PS2's.
Chasing the above in a 458 on the same day - whilst he will never admit it me in my GT2 were quicker...
Getting to look at it's jaw dropping good looks.
It'll have been spanked more than all of Miss Whiplash's clients put together.Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 17th November 17:06
Slippydiff said:
jfp said:
An interesting thread Henry, driving mine recently must have re-kindled your enthusiasm.....?!
Categorically, absolutely not.Well maybe,
possibly,
probably,
ok, pretty much definitely
m33ufo said:
jfp said:
Highlights:
Chasing Rob Huff round Silverstone in his (now owned by a PH'er) - tricky as he had AO48 R's and I was on PS2's.
Chasing the above in a 458 on the same day - whilst he will never admit it me in my GT2 were quicker...
Getting to look at it's jaw dropping good looks.
The b@stard assured me it'd never been tracked! Chasing Rob Huff round Silverstone in his (now owned by a PH'er) - tricky as he had AO48 R's and I was on PS2's.
Chasing the above in a 458 on the same day - whilst he will never admit it me in my GT2 were quicker...
Getting to look at it's jaw dropping good looks.
It'll have been spanked more than all of Miss Whiplash's clients put together.Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 17th November 17:06
El Guapo said:
Slippydiff said:
Ok, this "Widowmaker" nonsense needs to stop, right here, right now
On the other hand, letting slip that you have tamed "the widowmaker" might lead people to imagine that you have large, gristly testicles.monthefish said:
Slippydiff said:
You'll appreciate that both incidents had nothing to do with the car, both were "operator error".
Surely that's the point.Even the most dangerous "widowmaker" car isn't actually going to kill anyone whilst parked up. Add in 'an operator' however...
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