The 997 Appreciation Thread
Discussion
Desert Dragon said:
Yes his car had been resprayed to a poor standard by a previous painter who are friends of 911 Virgin and were recommended by them. Porsche had to go back to bare metal to sort previous repair. He's also redoing interior next perhaps via Porsche AG and actually wants to add sound insulation in order to quieten tyre roar. He is not taking weight out other than adding folding buckets and rear seat delete. Super project. He thinks car will weigh in at 1550kgs after he's finished maybe a bit more depending on weight of extra sound deadening material. Its a piano finish better than factory according to Porsche Reading. I shall report back in a few days. With the money people are spending on air cooled restomods nowadays I think this stacks up quite well as a useable old classic. 2006-2012 were good years for the 911 turbo.
Simply superb!
Pflanzgarten said:
Mates just bought the white PDK GTS that friends green had in for what I thought was a very cheap price (£50k).
Apparently he’s done a video of him driving it on track which really put off people buying it.
Probably tells you a lot about todays market (everyone thinks everything is an “investment”).
What????? Apparently he’s done a video of him driving it on track which really put off people buying it.
Probably tells you a lot about todays market (everyone thinks everything is an “investment”).
He dared taking a Porsche to a track??? 
How could he??? 
The car now is worthless and I hope he not only gave the GTS to your friend for free, but threw a hooker or two into the deal!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZAP_em2Anw
Great looking car, and I'm usually no friend of white cars. I guess it is the black stoneguard on rear arches and the fact it was gloriously dirty in the video
I love when a car is used as intended!
ETA:
Watching the video again, I realised the GTS has no leather dash and door. Did they not have this as standard? I remember all the UK cars with the exception of GT3's came with extended leather (dash and doors) as standard ...
Edited by Filibuster on Friday 2nd September 13:25
esotericar said:
No. Same with 991 GTS. To align them with the proper GT cars in marketing terms, the GTS did not come with extended leather as standard in the UK, unlike Carrera and Carrera S, which are both ext leather as standard in the UK (weirdly, not the case in the US, but whatever).
So, you see quite a few GTS models in the UK with the plastic interior. Which is pretty hard to stomach given the price premium! I suspect a lot of people ordering the cars were simply unaware. Dealer staff, too, no doubt. Wouldn't surprise me if a fair few customers got an unpleasant surprise and assumed their car would turn up with a leather-clad interior.
The UK was an absolute exception! In the US; Germany and Switzerland, you only had partial leather as standard. only the part of the seat you sat on and leaned against where leather, the rest of the seat and interior where not.So, you see quite a few GTS models in the UK with the plastic interior. Which is pretty hard to stomach given the price premium! I suspect a lot of people ordering the cars were simply unaware. Dealer staff, too, no doubt. Wouldn't surprise me if a fair few customers got an unpleasant surprise and assumed their car would turn up with a leather-clad interior.
Having seen various vanilla 997 without full leather, imho it is a vital thing to have and lifts the interior enormously!
As you say, a plastic dash might work with the ethos of a GT3, I can only imagine the horror if your GTS arrived without leather while you where expecting it
esotericar said:
A bit off-topic, but I wonder if even that was leather on cars with the plastic dash and door cards. I know that, for instance, on a 987S, which has the plastic doors and dash as standard in the UK, people think the standard seats are leather. They look like leather at a glance. But they are in fact plastic and you only actually get leather seats when you upgrade to either the sport seat, which is really leather, or extended leather.
from the german 997 price list from 10/06
as standard, only the following was grain leather:
2.2a steering wheel; 5.1 seat center; 5.2 seat bolster; 5.3a headrest;
and the following was smooth leather:
3.2a door handle; 3.3a/c door storage lid; 4.4a center console lid; 4.1a gear knob
Upon this, you could order full leather seats (€ 1'350,65) or full leather interior (€ 2'820,30). And for an extra € 362,95 you got ruched leather
Just convinced the OH to take the 997 for the weekend to her family. Will be the first big(ish) trip with our 14 month old daughter in the Porsche 
150 miles each way. After many tries, I opted for a Recaro child seat (what else). I have done numerous small trips with her (first with the Cybex pram when she was 3 months old) but nothing more than half an hour. Sick bags are at disposal, since she threw up in the Porsche twice already
Will post pics (no wifey pics
) tomorrow!
150 miles each way. After many tries, I opted for a Recaro child seat (what else). I have done numerous small trips with her (first with the Cybex pram when she was 3 months old) but nothing more than half an hour. Sick bags are at disposal, since she threw up in the Porsche twice already
Will post pics (no wifey pics
) tomorrow! 
Jellyfishfields said:
julian987R said:
Also been at H & H auction and Steve Bull recently, both times described as a launch car. Not sure that's necessarily a bad thing.Odd that it's been passed around so much recently though, it's a great specification for sure.
With the new Porsches, for an additional £1k you can have your carbon ceramics brake callipers painted in black, instead of the signature yellow.
Since I pampered the car around the city and with a baby that easily gets car sick lately, I spontaneously took the 997 onto the german Autobahn this morning for an italian tune up
Once warmed properly, I really pushed the old beast
I only have a humble 997.1 C2 with over 100k miles on the engine and over 200k miles on the chassis, but how this picks up speed is incredible.
Due to traffic I only got up to 150mph briefly but a rather long stretch over 120mph was possible nevertheless.
Between 5k and 6k rpm is where the car sings
and how it picks up speed from 90mph in 4th gear is more than fast enough for me. How the car barks when you blip the throttle when downshifting into 3rd @ 80 mph is an aural pleasure indeed.
(original, standard exhaust with TG 200 cell cats)But the 997 is so much more than only the drivetrain. The whole car and especially the steering at high speed gives you just so much confidence.
Also braking is great, even with the lowly C2 brake setup. Sure, probably not suited for a track day, but more than adequate for breaking more than once from 120mph to 60mph, as you have to do so often on german Autobahns.
Slippydiff said:
I like the interior 
Not a fan of the full aerokit on anything other than a GT3 as the rear spoiler doesn't work with the stock rear bumper/4 exhaust pipe combo. And why people paint the front splitter body colour is beyond me. Looks slightly naff and will doubtless need painting every five minutes.
I'd lose the rear spoiler, fit an RPM T ducktail in it's place, paint the front splitter black and fit a set of black exhaust tailpipes, and have the steering wheel trimmed in black/dark grey alcantara. Job jobbed.
I think the black X51 and PCCB equipped car on Autotrader is a nicer car (IMO) and for a chunk less money.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202209129...
Absolutely with you on the silver car.Not a fan of the full aerokit on anything other than a GT3 as the rear spoiler doesn't work with the stock rear bumper/4 exhaust pipe combo. And why people paint the front splitter body colour is beyond me. Looks slightly naff and will doubtless need painting every five minutes.
I'd lose the rear spoiler, fit an RPM T ducktail in it's place, paint the front splitter black and fit a set of black exhaust tailpipes, and have the steering wheel trimmed in black/dark grey alcantara. Job jobbed.
I think the black X51 and PCCB equipped car on Autotrader is a nicer car (IMO) and for a chunk less money.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202209129...
Regarding the black car: isn't this too cheap??? I mean this is a black on black, X51, PCCB 997.1 with only 50k miles for only £40k??
The discussion about IMS and bore scoring on 996 and 997 cars is one without an end.
While there certainly are problems with these engines, I don't want to argue with numbers.
I can only tell you the story off my 3.6 C2 997.1. I'm its 3rd owner from new. It is an early 2004 car and had a replacement engine from Porsche @100k miles in 2012 under Porsche warranty. This was due to an IMS failure. The car has a new AT stamped engine, probably a core engine (complete engine without ancillaries). The engine number indicates this is a leter design with the large, non replaceable bearing. What this means regarding piston/wall coating I don't know.
The car now has over 210k miles, 25k miles and 5 years in my ownership. The former owner did around 20k miles each year and had the oil changed every 12.5k miles. Most of these miles where done on German Autobahns above 100 mph. A true gentleman with mechanical sympathies who rigorously warmed up the engine but didn't pet the car afterwards. I have no doubt about what he told me and 5 years on he gets a photograph of his old car from me onve in a while, to which he always replies in a very nice way.
I bought this car for a what I consider a very cheap price. I wouldn't have been able to afford a low mileage 997 of any sort, let alone a 997.2. I was looking at the bottom end of the 996 market actually. It goes without saying that I wouldn't have been able to afford an engine rebuild or any other major bill at that point. I didn't do any PPI other than a test drive and walking around the car and looking underneath it.
I liked the car, the history and the seller, so I bought it.
The car gets meticulously serviced by myself and some trusty mechanics with regular oil changes with Motul 5W40. The car does not any oil between oil changes and there are no visible particles on the oil pan or the oil filter I always cut open to examine.
Every mechanical device is subject to wear. At some point, every engine needs work done. My old Volvo P1800 also needed a new engine due to bore score, which resulted in a bored out, finely balanced and blueprinted engine. What a machine it was afterwards.
If one day the Porsche needs a new engine as well, I deal with it at that point. I either can afford an engine revision, ideally again with 3.9l or I can't. I might get a finance for it or I sell the car on as a non runner. Only time will tell. Until then I plan to enjoy the car in full length and don't worry about it.
Sure, I might just have been lucky, who knows. I generally do have a very lucky hand in buying cars and I do my research beforehand, not going into these things blindly. But with a healthy portion of chutzpah. Fortune favours the brave!
After all, I'm very glad I bought what is an absolutely fantastic car! So good I started this thread
If you want to see more about my car, have a look at my readers car thread.
While there certainly are problems with these engines, I don't want to argue with numbers.
I can only tell you the story off my 3.6 C2 997.1. I'm its 3rd owner from new. It is an early 2004 car and had a replacement engine from Porsche @100k miles in 2012 under Porsche warranty. This was due to an IMS failure. The car has a new AT stamped engine, probably a core engine (complete engine without ancillaries). The engine number indicates this is a leter design with the large, non replaceable bearing. What this means regarding piston/wall coating I don't know.
The car now has over 210k miles, 25k miles and 5 years in my ownership. The former owner did around 20k miles each year and had the oil changed every 12.5k miles. Most of these miles where done on German Autobahns above 100 mph. A true gentleman with mechanical sympathies who rigorously warmed up the engine but didn't pet the car afterwards. I have no doubt about what he told me and 5 years on he gets a photograph of his old car from me onve in a while, to which he always replies in a very nice way.
I bought this car for a what I consider a very cheap price. I wouldn't have been able to afford a low mileage 997 of any sort, let alone a 997.2. I was looking at the bottom end of the 996 market actually. It goes without saying that I wouldn't have been able to afford an engine rebuild or any other major bill at that point. I didn't do any PPI other than a test drive and walking around the car and looking underneath it.
I liked the car, the history and the seller, so I bought it.
The car gets meticulously serviced by myself and some trusty mechanics with regular oil changes with Motul 5W40. The car does not any oil between oil changes and there are no visible particles on the oil pan or the oil filter I always cut open to examine.
Every mechanical device is subject to wear. At some point, every engine needs work done. My old Volvo P1800 also needed a new engine due to bore score, which resulted in a bored out, finely balanced and blueprinted engine. What a machine it was afterwards.
If one day the Porsche needs a new engine as well, I deal with it at that point. I either can afford an engine revision, ideally again with 3.9l
or I can't. I might get a finance for it or I sell the car on as a non runner. Only time will tell. Until then I plan to enjoy the car in full length and don't worry about it.Sure, I might just have been lucky, who knows. I generally do have a very lucky hand in buying cars and I do my research beforehand, not going into these things blindly. But with a healthy portion of chutzpah. Fortune favours the brave!
After all, I'm very glad I bought what is an absolutely fantastic car! So good I started this thread
If you want to see more about my car, have a look at my readers car thread.
Regardless of what car, the following rules certainly can't hurt:
1. not exceeding c. 3k rpm until the engine is properly warmed up
2. no wide open throttle (wot) at low rpm, do not labour any engine!
3. not staying too long at the same rpm i.e. 30 miles @ constant 3k rpm
4. species-appropriate outlet from time to time, i.e. italian tuneup
5. reduce heat cycles, not mileage
6. general mechanical sympathie, i.e. regularly checking oil and coolant level and keeping up with maintenance
7. as with kids: love doesn't mean you have to pamper or coddle a car
Of course you can't know how a previous owner has treated the car. And with each additional former owner this gets more and more difficult if at all possible. But mostly when buying a car, there are subtle hints and in the end I often buy the seller.
As I have often stated, mileage is not that important! A 60k miles car that has been used a lot for short commutes, has been raged from cold, wot from high gears, etc. probably is in a worse state than a car with double the mileage.
On this very thread, only a few pages back someone was offered ca 120k miles car, which was discarded point blank on the term of being leggy. It might be, but it might well run in car that has had shocks/springs/brakes/engine mounts/bushes replaced and is a far better drive than the supposedly better car below that magic 100k mark.
I'm not saying that every high mileage car is better, but there are real gems around at interesting prices. Proceed with open eyes and do you homework!
Of course, high mileage cars are a pain to sell on, so maybe not ideal if you plan to move on after a year or so.
And another strong point for high mileage cars: you don't care about putting miles on it. On the contrary! It gets cooler the higher the mileage gets
1. not exceeding c. 3k rpm until the engine is properly warmed up
2. no wide open throttle (wot) at low rpm, do not labour any engine!
3. not staying too long at the same rpm i.e. 30 miles @ constant 3k rpm
4. species-appropriate outlet from time to time, i.e. italian tuneup
5. reduce heat cycles, not mileage
6. general mechanical sympathie, i.e. regularly checking oil and coolant level and keeping up with maintenance
7. as with kids: love doesn't mean you have to pamper or coddle a car
Of course you can't know how a previous owner has treated the car. And with each additional former owner this gets more and more difficult if at all possible. But mostly when buying a car, there are subtle hints and in the end I often buy the seller.
As I have often stated, mileage is not that important! A 60k miles car that has been used a lot for short commutes, has been raged from cold, wot from high gears, etc. probably is in a worse state than a car with double the mileage.
On this very thread, only a few pages back someone was offered ca 120k miles car, which was discarded point blank on the term of being leggy. It might be, but it might well run in car that has had shocks/springs/brakes/engine mounts/bushes replaced and is a far better drive than the supposedly better car below that magic 100k mark.
I'm not saying that every high mileage car is better, but there are real gems around at interesting prices. Proceed with open eyes and do you homework!
Of course, high mileage cars are a pain to sell on, so maybe not ideal if you plan to move on after a year or so.
And another strong point for high mileage cars: you don't care about putting miles on it. On the contrary! It gets cooler the higher the mileage gets
VerySideways said:
DoubleSix said:
https://www.hexagonclassics.com/car/porsche-911--9...
Looks a nice example. Any thoughts on the price point and direction of travel from here?
That's peak 997 for me short of an RS 4.0 - but you just couldn't use it.Looks a nice example. Any thoughts on the price point and direction of travel from here?
The value is in the spec and the mileage.
I'd rather buy a higher mileage car that i could throw miles onto without worrying about the value, that's a speculator's car rather than a driver's car.
Shame.
Re spec: a real shame this doesn't have leather dash and doors.
I think we discussed this not long ago in this thread. Something in the configurator at that time, where the GTS didn't automatically came with leather interior. Probably many GTS owner where shocked finding out on delivery that their brand new, top of the line GTS didn't come with full leather.
Having a leather dashboard and door cards really lifts the 997 interior! In the UK it came standard in the Carreras, but here on the continent, we have many low spec 997 without full leather. It really makes a difference!
Hippea said:
High mileage but has had all the right bits done to it, a car you could use and not be too worried about leaving it in a supermarket car park.
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/14159271
Anyones on here?
For perspective: https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/14159271
Anyones on here?
I bought my 2004 997.1 C2 with chassis 190k / engine 100k miles back in 2017 for then £20k.
Also bear in mind I'm in Switzerland, where car prices are higher than in the UK. Certainly for every 911 ever.
My interior looks way better, even today @210k miles than the one in the advert does.
Although it is very difficult to value a car like this, taking above into consideration, I'd value this car at less than £25k, realistically nearer to £20k. As with everything, it is exactly worth what someone else is willing to pay for. The problem with cars like these is the tiny, tiny market of people who are considering this at all.
But there is plenty of life left in this car.
Edited by Filibuster on Thursday 10th November 13:09
c4sman said:
From memory, lobsters are the lightest OEM 997.1 wheel. I didn’t like them back in the day (OPC Reading swapped them for Carrera Classics for me for a small fee back in 2007 when I had a C2S that came fitted with them) but think the look fantastic now!
According to this site, they are the lightest 19" wheels, but the 997.2 Carrera S wheel is a bit lighter.http://www.944racing.de/wheelweights.php
And the 18" wheels are lighter as well. The Carrera III wheels are 9.1 kg / 10.9 kg according the internet (rennlist thread).
I'm a huge fan of the Carrera II wheels, the look just right
I have them on my 997 as winter wheels. They where cheap as chips and came with decent Continental winter rubber (50%). I paid less than for a new set of said tyres! My car has the P17 sports suspension (-20mm, LSD) and it looks spot on! In the meantime and thus not visible in the photos, I have fitted some 10mm and 30mm spacers, which fill the arches much better.
Keep in mind, that the rear wheels differ if they have come from a C4 or a C2!
With all this talk about bore scoring, lets not forget that those cars are great! 
Almost every thread about 997 turn into a debate about this topic. Yes, it can be a problem, but I think at this point it gets blown out of proportion.
Have a read here: https://www.rpmspecialistcars.co.uk/porsche-bore-s...
RPM link to an interesting article from 2015 in GTPorsche magazine. Nothing new if you have read a couple of threads on here or elsewhere, but a good abstract from someone who interviewed numerous people who work on these cars daily.
As has been stated by other members in an other thread and as is described in the article above, sticking a £100 borescope into a cylinder doesn't always tell you the whole story.
Almost every thread about 997 turn into a debate about this topic. Yes, it can be a problem, but I think at this point it gets blown out of proportion.
Have a read here: https://www.rpmspecialistcars.co.uk/porsche-bore-s...
RPM link to an interesting article from 2015 in GTPorsche magazine. Nothing new if you have read a couple of threads on here or elsewhere, but a good abstract from someone who interviewed numerous people who work on these cars daily.
As has been stated by other members in an other thread and as is described in the article above, sticking a £100 borescope into a cylinder doesn't always tell you the whole story.
ATM said:
Filibuster said:
Have a read here: https://www.rpmspecialistcars.co.uk/porsche-bore-s...
Extract from the above article below. This is the problem with articles like this. They try to make ridiculous claims. There is absolutely no way anyone here can believe that only 500 of these engines have been rebuilt due to bore scoring. It's probably over ambitious to assume that the number is closer to 10 per week but that feels more believable to me than 500 total. Even if we say it is only 5 per week then that's 250 per year since the article was written in 2017 so an extra 1500 or 3 x what the article claims. And as each week ticks by another 5 more get done and so the count is increasing constantly. Porsche GB advise that it sold 9710 E 996s and 997s in the model years 2004-2006. Some very wet-finger-inthe-air guesswork suggests independent specialist rebuilds and OPC warranty replacements combined may have reached 500 engines from that period, which indicates an overall percentage of around five per cent.
But the numbers are the least interesting aspect of article.
What I take from the article, is the technical aspects like cylinder wall thickness from 2.5-2.7-3.4-3.6-3.8 and how this correlates with bore scoring.
How the most wear occurs during warm up.
Why this means that often low mileage garage queens are affected, while high milers might be fine.
(I keep telling people - on the internet and irl - that mileage doesn't matter as much as heat cycles do.)
What the indicators for bore scoreing are (more usable for owners than for buyers).
What to do to prevent this issue.
That not every single car is affected. (ok, one voice said all 3.8 will score at some point...)
These are the interesting facts we should take away from articles like these.
ATM said:
You've made a serious leap there from low mileage garage queen to all short trip usage while the engine is always cold and therefore wearing more.
Some low mileage garage queens may only be used for long trips across Europe.
Some higher mileage cars may always be used for short trips in stop start traffic to the gym, shops and office. That's my typical usage.
Obviously. The next sentence of my post therefore stated that heat cycles are relevant. Some low mileage garage queens may only be used for long trips across Europe.
Some higher mileage cars may always be used for short trips in stop start traffic to the gym, shops and office. That's my typical usage.
The point you and and cabbalisticar are making regarding cold starts and bore scoring is a valid point tough. Labouring an engine is a big no no!
What I am trying to say, is that you can prevent bore scoring to a very good degree with how you drive and how you treat the car. And that there is no 100% failure rate.
Obviously this becomes difficult when buying used, since you do not know how the former owner treated the car. This becomes more of an unknown with any additional owner.
I think we can agree, that the whole subject is a very complex one!
cabbalisticar said:
Not convinced that's true, either. Up to a point I think driver inputs may have an influence. But from what I can personally glean, think more likely the factor that dictates if an engine scores sooner rather than later is manufacturing variance.
May come down to something like variances in the size and character of Lokasil crystals as a consequence of manufacturing variances. So with some engines, you are more likely to, in simple terms, get tiny bits of the cylinder wall breaking off that then get trapped between wall and piston. In the cylinders that run hotter, oil film is thinner so those pieces are squeezed directly by piston skirt and wall, low-friction piston skirt coating gets damaged, it begins to break down and evenly when it breaks down fully you get contact between bare / damaged piston skirt and cylinder wall and the real scoring kicks in.
Whatever, my ooverarching point would be that I think the idea that driving style makes a big difference may not be correct. Personally think engines that gonna score, they're gonna score. The issue is largely built in.
Interesting. Honestly, I don't know for sure. I'm neither an engineer, nor a mechanic. May come down to something like variances in the size and character of Lokasil crystals as a consequence of manufacturing variances. So with some engines, you are more likely to, in simple terms, get tiny bits of the cylinder wall breaking off that then get trapped between wall and piston. In the cylinders that run hotter, oil film is thinner so those pieces are squeezed directly by piston skirt and wall, low-friction piston skirt coating gets damaged, it begins to break down and evenly when it breaks down fully you get contact between bare / damaged piston skirt and cylinder wall and the real scoring kicks in.
Whatever, my ooverarching point would be that I think the idea that driving style makes a big difference may not be correct. Personally think engines that gonna score, they're gonna score. The issue is largely built in.
I'm glad the 3.6 replacement engine that Porsche put in my car in 2012 with the later, bigger bearing and now has done 115k miles doesn't use any oil between service, the oil looks like new i let it out, there are no debris in the oil filter when I cut it open, the magnetic drain plug is clean, the exhaust tips are clean too, there is no knocking noise and the car "pulls like a train" (insert other bla bla if you like).
Out of interest, who are you cabbalisticar? Are you a mechanic or an engineer? Do you drive a M96/7 engined Porsche?
Or do you drive a manual, black 987.2 Cayman S on 17" wheels by any chance???
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