Current market

[GT4RS]

julian987R said:

Sukh13 said:

Other than the sunroof, it seems to have very little in the way of options, which may be working against it.

Other 991.1 at the 40k point aren't really moving either, think we are in a holding pattern before the market works out what is going on...

There have been three other. 1s below 40k in the last two months and they have sold within a week.

Sign of the times or sign of the car, I've not seen the car in person so it's hard to say.

History won't be kind to the 991.
997's will be more expensive than their 991 equivalents in all models.

This wouldn’t shock me at all.

[CK11]

GT4RS said:

So this is the lowest price sensible mile 4 gts I could find…

What do you think the trade value it at?

That particular car i dont know exactly, but on another couple of NON 4 2015 991.1 gts, i done my 'homework' with a few of the more popular porsche specialists and they were way, and i mean way over what wbac and motorway were offering. They did admit the market is tough at the mid to high range of pricing mainly due to the high interest rates.

[julian987R]

GT4RS said:

julian987R said:

History won't be kind to the 991.
997's will be more expensive than their 991 equivalents in all models.

This wouldn’t shock me at all.

Indeed. One only has to compare between the two ranges and its already started happening.

[Chipper]

CK11 said:

GT4RS said:

So this is the lowest price sensible mile 4 gts I could find…

What do you think the trade value it at?

That particular car i dont know exactly, but on another couple of NON 4 2015 991.1 gts, i done my 'homework' with a few of the more popular porsche specialists and they were way, and i mean way over what wbac and motorway were offering. They did admit the market is tough at the mid to high range of pricing mainly due to the high interest rates.

I understand some specialist would pay more especially as they understand what their customers are wanting but in many cases WBAC are very close to what trade is offering on 911’s. The impact for dealers is only truly being understood as anyone thinking of purchasing a vehicle could at least get a rough idea how much of a hit they are taking if they purchased a vehicle .

The Porsche market is in a very odd spot right now. Very little seems to be moving unless the price is slashed. 992 T only seem to shift when they are priced around £100000 to £109000. GTS vehicle are stuck in no man’s land. You have 23 plate basically new Turbo S cars now starting from £165000 and yet you have loads and loads of 21 plate and 22 plate Turbo S still up at £170000 to £200000.

Unless Porsche can stop the influx of new cars coming in and stacking up ( I don’t think they can ) then the entire dealership stock is now overpriced. You just have to see the price cuts dripping in constantly on stock now to see the dam is about to collapse.

I would say there is a good 10 to 15% price cut on the majority of 911’s needed now to move them on.

[Sukh13]

julian987R said:

Indeed. One only has to compare between the two ranges and its already started happening.

Do you think that's related to the 991.1 electric steering or the 991.2 as well (turbo engine etc).

In that case does the same apply to the 992?

Edit: 997.2 GTS are holding their value well

Edited by Sukh13 on Monday 2nd October 08:47

[Nuttbelle]

Production planning was done 12 months out so the flood of new cars is still coming despite no orders.
They can't just stop production based on today's demand.
Things will get worse b4 they get better

[ATM]

Nuttbelle said:

Production planning was done 12 months out so the flood of new cars is still coming despite no orders.
They can't just stop production based on today's demand.
Things will get worse b4 they get better

Total guesswork here on my part but surely the lean and efficient manufacturing process which is Porsche can surely react quicker than 12 months out.

[Milemuncher]

Chipper said:

I understand some specialist would pay more especially as they understand what their customers are wanting but in many cases WBAC are very close to what trade is offering on 911’s. The impact for dealers is only truly being understood as anyone thinking of purchasing a vehicle could at least get a rough idea how much of a hit they are taking if they purchased a vehicle .

The Porsche market is in a very odd spot right now. Very little seems to be moving unless the price is slashed. 992 T only seem to shift when they are priced around £100000 to £109000. GTS vehicle are stuck in no man’s land. You have 23 plate basically new Turbo S cars now starting from £165000 and yet you have loads and loads of 21 plate and 22 plate Turbo S still up at £170000 to £200000.

Unless Porsche can stop the influx of new cars coming in and stacking up ( I don’t think they can ) then the entire dealership stock is now overpriced. You just have to see the price cuts dripping in constantly on stock now to see the dam is about to collapse.

I would say there is a good 10 to 15% price cut on the majority of 911’s needed now to move them on.

This.

[GT4P]

Back in the 70s the management of Ford would bung the Union Leaders to call out a strike that soon stops production

[ChrisW.]

It's supply chain all the way out to sourcing raw materials ...

IC's were often on 26 week lead times which increased to 52 weeks with 50% payment up front. If with embedded firmware these can't easily be multi-purposed ... and the transposition of components apparently compatible can have unintended consequences as many manufacturers have seen.

It is therefore very difficult to make anything more than modest flexing of the existing product range.

I see another special edition coming with a price advantage which should stimulate the market without directly compromising existing models ... and enabling a fixed spec run of stuff that Porsche need to turn into cars ...

The explosion of sub-model variants will make future spare parts availability very challenging .... worth remembering.

[Spevs]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

He's not a Plonker, he's a Cosser

[CK11]

I hope to see some realistic drops in the near future, im definitely not seeing anything on the 991.1 market. It still seems to be £50k+ for a low mileage 991.1s and £70-£80k for a 991.1 gts. Even the CC 2015 3.4 black edition that sold last week was what i thought, crazy money. Obviously buyers out there still.
One other private seller i had asked about a 991.1s was not dropping from the asking price. Im Definitely not seeing any price correction cars available or even anywhere near.

[Ed.Neumann]

CK11 said:

That particular car i dont know exactly, but on another couple of NON 4 2015 991.1 gts, i done my 'homework' with a few of the more popular porsche specialists and they were way, and i mean way over what wbac and motorway were offering. They did admit the market is tough at the mid to high range of pricing mainly due to the high interest rates.

WBAC are normally around 4-8 weeks ahead of the curve when it comes to pricing, they are basing their prices on actual prices achieved at BCA on the previous days, and purchase prices are updated accordingly.


Forget trying to guess where prices will be in 12 months, you can see where they are going to be in 8 weeks by simply looking at WBAC pricing.

It was the same during the lockdown when prices went the other way. Dealers simply not believing customers about the valuation WBAC was offering. In fact at the start just as prices started to climb my mate, who trades from home, was taking in part exchanges from his contact at the local SEAT and VW dealerships unseen and taking them to WBAC and making a couple of grand without doing anything at all. And these were £5-10k cars.

WBAC could see what was happening first and priced accordingly, it took dealers a few weeks of seeing auction prices rocket to catch up. No different on the way down. It will take a few weeks of no sales for reality to set in.


Other thing to consider, most finance houses are back to only lending on PCP type deals if the car is no more than 8 years old at the end of the term.
That went out the window recently, and that makes a huge difference.

Buy a 2015 car today and want to finance it, and you now have to fund it outright over 48 months.
That changes everything.

I know you're a cash buyer, but the majority are not.

2022.
2014 GTS £60,000
£10k down
Balloon £30k
48 x £585 (5% apr)

2023
2015 GTS £60,000
£10,000 down
48 x £1244 (9% apr)

Sure you own the car after 4 years, but many can't afford another £7500 pa on car finance, as well as the extra £8000 a year on their mortgage and the extra £5000 pa on the food shop, and the extra £2000 a year on their energy bills.


Many will see an 8 year old 911 GTS as maybe a £750 a month car with £10k up front. That is where prices will naturally end up.

[franki68]

Wbac will be pretty close to trade offers that you would get ,
They are useless on proper rare stuff but 911s are common and I found their valuations always very close to trade offers I got on various 911s

[Sukh13]

CK11 said:

I hope to see some realistic drops in the near future, im definitely not seeing anything on the 991.1 market. It still seems to be £50k+ for a low mileage 991.1s and £70-£80k for a 991.1 gts. Even the CC 2015 3.4 black edition that sold last week was what i thought, crazy money. Obviously buyers out there still.
One other private seller i had asked about a 991.1s was not dropping from the asking price. Im Definitely not seeing any price correction cars available or even anywhere near.

Out of interest, what were OTR prices for these cars?

Original buyers must be enjoying the lowest depreciation ownership in decades

[ATM]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I saw threads in 2021 when the boom started where people were selling their P cars to wbac for a profit over their price paid 2 or 3 years prior.

[GT4RS]

Ed.Neumann said:

CK11 said:

That particular car i dont know exactly, but on another couple of NON 4 2015 991.1 gts, i done my 'homework' with a few of the more popular porsche specialists and they were way, and i mean way over what wbac and motorway were offering. They did admit the market is tough at the mid to high range of pricing mainly due to the high interest rates.

WBAC are normally around 4-8 weeks ahead of the curve when it comes to pricing, they are basing their prices on actual prices achieved at BCA on the previous days, and purchase prices are updated accordingly.


Forget trying to guess where prices will be in 12 months, you can see where they are going to be in 8 weeks by simply looking at WBAC pricing.

It was the same during the lockdown when prices went the other way. Dealers simply not believing customers about the valuation WBAC was offering. In fact at the start just as prices started to climb my mate, who trades from home, was taking in part exchanges from his contact at the local SEAT and VW dealerships unseen and taking them to WBAC and making a couple of grand without doing anything at all. And these were £5-10k cars.

WBAC could see what was happening first and priced accordingly, it took dealers a few weeks of seeing auction prices rocket to catch up. No different on the way down. It will take a few weeks of no sales for reality to set in.


Other thing to consider, most finance houses are back to only lending on PCP type deals if the car is no more than 8 years old at the end of the term.
That went out the window recently, and that makes a huge difference.

Buy a 2015 car today and want to finance it, and you now have to fund it outright over 48 months.
That changes everything.

I know you're a cash buyer, but the majority are not.

2022.
2014 GTS £60,000
£10k down
Balloon £30k
48 x £585 (5% apr)

2023
2015 GTS £60,000
£10,000 down
48 x £1244 (9% apr)

Sure you own the car after 4 years, but many can't afford another £7500 pa on car finance, as well as the extra £8000 a year on their mortgage and the extra £5000 pa on the food shop, and the extra £2000 a year on their energy bills.


Many will see an 8 year old 911 GTS as maybe a £750 a month car with £10k up front. That is where prices will naturally end up.

Very well balanced post, make a lot of sense.

[CK11]

franki68 said:

Wbac will be pretty close to trade offers that you would get ,
They are useless on proper rare stuff but 911s are common and I found their valuations always very close to trade offers I got on various 911s

Must be a mile of on gts prices for sure. A specialist offering £66k when wbac and motorway were offering i think £52-53k

[braddo]

Ed.Neumann said:

WBAC are normally around 4-8 weeks ahead of the curve when it comes to pricing, they are basing their prices on actual prices achieved at BCA on the previous days, and purchase prices are updated accordingly.

Forget trying to guess where prices will be in 12 months, you can see where they are going to be in 8 weeks by simply looking at WBAC pricing.

I'd say that model doesn't work very well when the sales venue (in this case BCA auctions) is a low proportion of total sales of what is already a low volume car. WBAC don't want 911s, which is why they offer such a low price (aka adding a huge risk premium). Plus they have no way of valuing the options on high-spec cars. It's not market price.

I wonder how many 991s are going through BCA each month. Not enough to get their pricing right.

[ChrisW.]

GT4RS said:

Ed.Neumann said:

CK11 said:

That particular car i dont know exactly, but on another couple of NON 4 2015 991.1 gts, i done my 'homework' with a few of the more popular porsche specialists and they were way, and i mean way over what wbac and motorway were offering. They did admit the market is tough at the mid to high range of pricing mainly due to the high interest rates.

WBAC are normally around 4-8 weeks ahead of the curve when it comes to pricing, they are basing their prices on actual prices achieved at BCA on the previous days, and purchase prices are updated accordingly.


Forget trying to guess where prices will be in 12 months, you can see where they are going to be in 8 weeks by simply looking at WBAC pricing.

It was the same during the lockdown when prices went the other way. Dealers simply not believing customers about the valuation WBAC was offering. In fact at the start just as prices started to climb my mate, who trades from home, was taking in part exchanges from his contact at the local SEAT and VW dealerships unseen and taking them to WBAC and making a couple of grand without doing anything at all. And these were £5-10k cars.

WBAC could see what was happening first and priced accordingly, it took dealers a few weeks of seeing auction prices rocket to catch up. No different on the way down. It will take a few weeks of no sales for reality to set in.


Other thing to consider, most finance houses are back to only lending on PCP type deals if the car is no more than 8 years old at the end of the term.
That went out the window recently, and that makes a huge difference.

Buy a 2015 car today and want to finance it, and you now have to fund it outright over 48 months.
That changes everything.

I know you're a cash buyer, but the majority are not.

2022.
2014 GTS £60,000
£10k down
Balloon £30k
48 x £585 (5% apr)

2023
2015 GTS £60,000
£10,000 down
48 x £1244 (9% apr)

Sure you own the car after 4 years, but many can't afford another £7500 pa on car finance, as well as the extra £8000 a year on their mortgage and the extra £5000 pa on the food shop, and the extra £2000 a year on their energy bills.


Many will see an 8 year old 911 GTS as maybe a £750 a month car with £10k up front. That is where prices will naturally end up.

Very well balanced post, make a lot of sense.

I agree, but in this circumstance the car also becomes a four year savings plan for anything over the £10,000 deposit that the car may be worth at the end of the four years. However, there are also the additional running costs over their daily ...