what is an 'early' 3.4 996?

[BandOfBrothers]

Slippydiff said:

BandOfBrothers said:

351bhp and 318 lbs from £23k of engine work would leave me disappointed if it were mine?

I thought these 3.9L would be pushing closer to 375 bhp - the standard 3.4L is 300 bhp. 50 bhp from a 0.5L capacity increase seems light?

And the 997.2S 3.8 bhp puts out 350 bhp?

That’s 351hp from a 996.2 3.6 which produces 320hp stock. So actually just a 30hp gain. Their 3.4 litre to 3.7 conversions produce 320-330hp.

But their engines produce decent torque increases (and there’s a couple of really healthy 3.9 996.2 ‘s that produce 365hp and 330 torques) A combination of torque and power that would make for a very quick little car.


Hence my comments that the black car would make for a good 996 GT3 Lite/Touring road car. And though it’s heresy to say as much on PH, the 3.9 engine would make for a more relevant and useable power unit on our roads today.

The Gen 2 997 3.8 S engine produces 385hp, and in powerkit form 408hp. Though the standard engine can be easily uncorked with a decent set of manifolds, high flow cats and exhaust boxes. And if you want to further increase it’s responsiveness, fit a lightweight single-mass flywheel, then garnish with a decent live remap and you’ll be looking at 415hp.

And thats the rub, isn't it?

Why spend £23k+ on a 3.9 conversion when you could pick up a much newer 997.2 C2 S with more power as standard?

You'd have to be really wedded to the 996 platform to make that choice.

[nosavings]

BandOfBrothers said:

Slippydiff said:

BandOfBrothers said:

351bhp and 318 lbs from £23k of engine work would leave me disappointed if it were mine?

I thought these 3.9L would be pushing closer to 375 bhp - the standard 3.4L is 300 bhp. 50 bhp from a 0.5L capacity increase seems light?

And the 997.2S 3.8 bhp puts out 350 bhp?

That’s 351hp from a 996.2 3.6 which produces 320hp stock. So actually just a 30hp gain. Their 3.4 litre to 3.7 conversions produce 320-330hp.

But their engines produce decent torque increases (and there’s a couple of really healthy 3.9 996.2 ‘s that produce 365hp and 330 torques) A combination of torque and power that would make for a very quick little car.


Hence my comments that the black car would make for a good 996 GT3 Lite/Touring road car. And though it’s heresy to say as much on PH, the 3.9 engine would make for a more relevant and useable power unit on our roads today.

The Gen 2 997 3.8 S engine produces 385hp, and in powerkit form 408hp. Though the standard engine can be easily uncorked with a decent set of manifolds, high flow cats and exhaust boxes. And if you want to further increase it’s responsiveness, fit a lightweight single-mass flywheel, then garnish with a decent live remap and you’ll be looking at 415hp.

And thats the rub, isn't it?

Why spend £23k+ on a 3.9 conversion when you could pick up a much newer 997.2 C2 S with more power as standard?

You'd have to be really wedded to the 996 platform to make that choice.

I believe the conversion itself (incl rebuild, let’s bot forget about that) is something like 15k gbp. The rest is probably “while you’re in there” jobs.

So the major expense here is not for power increase but for a “new” engine, which a 15 year old 997 would not have at this price.

Just thinking out loud

[ATM]

nosavings said:

BandOfBrothers said:

Slippydiff said:

BandOfBrothers said:

351bhp and 318 lbs from £23k of engine work would leave me disappointed if it were mine?

I thought these 3.9L would be pushing closer to 375 bhp - the standard 3.4L is 300 bhp. 50 bhp from a 0.5L capacity increase seems light?

And the 997.2S 3.8 bhp puts out 350 bhp?

That’s 351hp from a 996.2 3.6 which produces 320hp stock. So actually just a 30hp gain. Their 3.4 litre to 3.7 conversions produce 320-330hp.

But their engines produce decent torque increases (and there’s a couple of really healthy 3.9 996.2 ‘s that produce 365hp and 330 torques) A combination of torque and power that would make for a very quick little car.


Hence my comments that the black car would make for a good 996 GT3 Lite/Touring road car. And though it’s heresy to say as much on PH, the 3.9 engine would make for a more relevant and useable power unit on our roads today.

The Gen 2 997 3.8 S engine produces 385hp, and in powerkit form 408hp. Though the standard engine can be easily uncorked with a decent set of manifolds, high flow cats and exhaust boxes. And if you want to further increase it’s responsiveness, fit a lightweight single-mass flywheel, then garnish with a decent live remap and you’ll be looking at 415hp.

And thats the rub, isn't it?

Why spend £23k+ on a 3.9 conversion when you could pick up a much newer 997.2 C2 S with more power as standard?

You'd have to be really wedded to the 996 platform to make that choice.

I believe the conversion itself (incl rebuild, let’s bot forget about that) is something like 15k gbp. The rest is probably “while you’re in there” jobs.

So the major expense here is not for power increase but for a “new” engine, which a 15 year old 997 would not have at this price.

Just thinking out loud

The engine was probably broke before the rebuild. So 23k gets the car fixed rather than just improved upon.

[BandOfBrothers]

nosavings said:

I believe the conversion itself (incl rebuild, let’s bot forget about that) is something like 15k gbp. The rest is probably “while you’re in there” jobs.

So the major expense here is not for power increase but for a “new” engine, which a 15 year old 997 would not have at this price.

Just thinking out loud

Advert states the current price is £22k just for the engine work.

[BandOfBrothers]

ATM said:

nosavings said:

BandOfBrothers said:

Slippydiff said:

BandOfBrothers said:

351bhp and 318 lbs from £23k of engine work would leave me disappointed if it were mine?

I thought these 3.9L would be pushing closer to 375 bhp - the standard 3.4L is 300 bhp. 50 bhp from a 0.5L capacity increase seems light?

And the 997.2S 3.8 bhp puts out 350 bhp?

That’s 351hp from a 996.2 3.6 which produces 320hp stock. So actually just a 30hp gain. Their 3.4 litre to 3.7 conversions produce 320-330hp.

But their engines produce decent torque increases (and there’s a couple of really healthy 3.9 996.2 ‘s that produce 365hp and 330 torques) A combination of torque and power that would make for a very quick little car.


Hence my comments that the black car would make for a good 996 GT3 Lite/Touring road car. And though it’s heresy to say as much on PH, the 3.9 engine would make for a more relevant and useable power unit on our roads today.

The Gen 2 997 3.8 S engine produces 385hp, and in powerkit form 408hp. Though the standard engine can be easily uncorked with a decent set of manifolds, high flow cats and exhaust boxes. And if you want to further increase it’s responsiveness, fit a lightweight single-mass flywheel, then garnish with a decent live remap and you’ll be looking at 415hp.

And thats the rub, isn't it?

Why spend £23k+ on a 3.9 conversion when you could pick up a much newer 997.2 C2 S with more power as standard?

You'd have to be really wedded to the 996 platform to make that choice.

I believe the conversion itself (incl rebuild, let’s bot forget about that) is something like 15k gbp. The rest is probably “while you’re in there” jobs.

So the major expense here is not for power increase but for a “new” engine, which a 15 year old 997 would not have at this price.

Just thinking out loud

The engine was probably broke before the rebuild. So 23k gets the car fixed rather than just improved upon.

But a car with a broken engine must still be worth £5k, so all on it's costing you £28k+ to end up in a 3.9 996 with 350 bhp.

Or you could have an 8 year newer 997.2 4S with 40k miles on it with the same power, easier to insure and sell etc...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202310243...

[Slippydiff]

BandOfBrothers said:

And thats the rub, isn't it?

Why spend £23k+ on a 3.9 conversion when you could pick up a much newer 997.2 C2 S with more power as standard?

You'd have to be really wedded to the 996 platform to make that choice.

It makes no practical sense at all, but I have to admit I have a foot in both camps, a stunning 997.2 3.8 S manual C2 coupe, and an equally stunning 996.2 C2 manual coupe.

The 996 has been fettled with Ohlins suspension, some trick front suspension parts, bigger brakes, quickshift, decent seats and a Cup wheel. It’s otherwise stock, but feels like a go-kart compared with the “grown up” 997.2.

The later car is far, far more refined, quicker, more rounded and generally more grown up, but it does definitely lack the tactility and engagement of the 996.

A Gen 1 997 3.8 S C2 manual coupe with a full Hartech engine build, that retains it’s standard capacity (that a previous owner has paid for) is probably the sweet spot out of all of them.

Edited by Slippydiff on Saturday 8th June 11:57

[911Spanker]

I have a 3.9 Hartech 996.2. It's ace and for me is a far better driver's car than a 997.2 (which I tested extensively before buying this). As has been said, it has more feel and just seems a more analogue drive. Interior isn't as good of course if that's your thing.

Mine has 365 bhp and 345lb ft. It's the torque which is significantly increased over the standard car which you really notice. . More torque than any N/A factory 911? Possibly..

Just had fitted some Eibach adjustable lower arms - I was sceptical at first but it has transformed the front end and allows you to really make use of the engine...only done about 80 miles this far but seems a great upgrade..

On road, I am sure it would leave an equivalent GT3 for dead...

[BandOfBrothers]

911Spanker said:

I have a 3.9 Hartech 996.2. It's ace and for me is a far better driver's car than a 997.2 (which I tested extensively before buying this). As has been said, it has more feel and just seems a more analogue drive. Interior isn't as good of course if that's your thing.

Mine has 365 bhp and 345lb ft. It's the torque which is significantly increased over the standard car which you really notice. . More torque than any N/A factory 911? Possibly..

Just had fitted some Eibach adjustable lower arms - I was sceptical at first but it has transformed the front end and allows you to really make use of the engine...only done about 80 miles this far but seems a great upgrade..

On road, I am sure it would leave an equivalent GT3 for dead...

Those are some pretty bold claims - do you have any dyno charts so we can see what the torque curve looks like?

[911Spanker]

BandOfBrothers said:

911Spanker said:

I have a 3.9 Hartech 996.2. It's ace and for me is a far better driver's car than a 997.2 (which I tested extensively before buying this). As has been said, it has more feel and just seems a more analogue drive. Interior isn't as good of course if that's your thing.

Mine has 365 bhp and 345lb ft. It's the torque which is significantly increased over the standard car which you really notice. . More torque than any N/A factory 911? Possibly..

Just had fitted some Eibach adjustable lower arms - I was sceptical at first but it has transformed the front end and allows you to really make use of the engine...only done about 80 miles this far but seems a great upgrade..

On road, I am sure it would leave an equivalent GT3 for dead...

Those are some pretty bold claims - do you have any dyno charts so we can see what the torque curve looks like?

I do in the paperwork provided by Hartech which I don't have on me currently. If you are interested I believe there's plenty of information on the Hartech website including graphs etc.

If you have seen a recent 911&Porsche World mag, they tested Josh Sadler's 3.9 against a GT3 and from memory the torque figure was not dissimilar.

These engines pull hard at road speeds - that's what they were designed to do. Mine does not have top end "fireworks" but on road it's a quick car.

I wouldn't change mine for a 997.2 for a variety of reasons as I think it is the more fun car. And it's a fair chunk cheaper in the current market.

For me personally it is the perfect 911 for my use as it marries daily usability with old school feel and driver appeal.

Love it!!

Edited by 911Spanker on Saturday 8th June 07:04

[ATM]

911Spanker said:

Mine does not have top end "fireworks" but on road it's a quick car.

Yeah I find these engines a bit less zingy at the very top end of the revs.

[Slippydiff]

BandOfBrothers said:

Those are some pretty bold claims - do you have any dyno charts so we can see what the torque curve looks like?

Hartech 3.9 996.2 3.6 conversion



365 ponies

324 torques.

A 996 GT3 (Mk1) produces 273 torques at 5000rpm

The 3.9 conversion is producing close to peak torque from 3750rpm to 5500rpm.
Hence why the large capacity conversions make for such excellent road car engines.

I’ve often said that my stock 996.2 3.6 feels more torquey than the old Mk 1 996 GT3’s I owned.
Both cars produce the same peak torque figure (273) but the M96 C2 engine produces it at 4250 rpm, as opposed to the GT3 at 5500rpm. No prizes for guessing which feels more potent low down in the rev range where most drivers spend 90% of their time …

Adding 50-60 torques to my car would make it feel far quicker between 3000 and 5000rpm than a Mk 1 or Mk2 996 GT3 in everyday driving on give and take roads, and without all the high rev histrionics.

[Slippydiff]

911Spanker said:

I do in the paperwork provided by Hartech which I don't have on me currently. If you are interested I believe there's plenty of information on the Hartech website including graphs etc.

If you have seen a recent 911&Porsche World mag, they tested Josh Sadler's 3.9 against a GT3 and from memory the torque figure was not dissimilar.

These engines pull hard at road speeds - that's what they were designed to do. Mine does not have top end "fireworks" but on road it's a quick car.

I wouldn't change mine for a 997.2 for a variety of reasons as I think it is the more fun car. And it's a fair chunk cheaper in the current market.

For me personally it is the perfect 911 for my use as it marries daily usability with old school feel and driver appeal.

Love it!!

I drove Josh’s 3.9 C2 a couple of years ago, it’s a quick old barge. It used some Schrick cams to good effect, it enabled the engine to breath better at the top end, something Hartech are trying to improve on currently.

Josh’s car produced 385hp from memory ? and I suspect at least 50 torques more than an equivalent 996.2 GT3 ? (I have a previous road test complete with torque and power figures somewhere, I’ll dig them out)

Edit to add : Josh's car is quoted in the previous article as producing 332 torques at 5180 rpm, the torque being moved up the rev range due to the aforementioned change of cams (and no doubt the then catless exhaust ....)

Edited by Slippydiff on Saturday 8th June 12:05

[ATM]

Slippydiff said:

911Spanker said:

I do in the paperwork provided by Hartech which I don't have on me currently. If you are interested I believe there's plenty of information on the Hartech website including graphs etc.

If you have seen a recent 911&Porsche World mag, they tested Josh Sadler's 3.9 against a GT3 and from memory the torque figure was not dissimilar.

These engines pull hard at road speeds - that's what they were designed to do. Mine does not have top end "fireworks" but on road it's a quick car.

I wouldn't change mine for a 997.2 for a variety of reasons as I think it is the more fun car. And it's a fair chunk cheaper in the current market.

For me personally it is the perfect 911 for my use as it marries daily usability with old school feel and driver appeal.

Love it!!

I drove Josh’s 3.9 C2 a couple of years ago, it’s a quick old barge. It used some Schrick cams to good effect, it enabled the engine to breath better at the top end, something Hartech are trying to improve on currently.

Josh’s car produced 385hp from memory ? and I suspect at least 50 torques more than an equivalent 996.2 GT3 ? (I have a previous road test complete with torque and power figures somewhere, I’ll dig them out)

Edit to add : Josh's car is quoted in the previous article as producing 332 torques at 5180 rpm, the torque being moved up the rev range due to the aforementioned change of cams (and no doubt the then catless exhaust ....)

Edited by Slippydiff on Saturday 8th June 12:05

The x51 3.8 m97 produces about 380 bhps. So I'd like to think a 3.9 might produce 390 and could a 4.1 produce closer to 410 - IF you're starting with the x51 m97?

[Slippydiff]

ATM said:

The x51 3.8 m97 produces about 380 bhps. So I'd like to think a 3.9 might produce 390 and could a 4.1 produce closer to 410 - IF you're starting with the x51 m97?

It is all too easy to get fixated on peak horsepower numbers, whereas torque under the curve is generally considered more relevant, especially when discussing road cars.
A look at the 3.8 X51 Powerkit engine used in the 997.2 cars, shows little or no increase in torque over the non-Powerkit (if there is a gain, it’s right at the top of rev range, as is the 23hp power increase. Both of which are great for the traffic light GP, or track day use, but of little use for day to day use, something you could say about the 996 and to a lesser degree the 997 GT3’s.

[BandOfBrothers]

Slippydiff said:

BandOfBrothers said:

Those are some pretty bold claims - do you have any dyno charts so we can see what the torque curve looks like?

Hartech 3.9 996.2 3.6 conversion



365 ponies

324 torques.

A 996 GT3 (Mk1) produces 273 torques at 5000rpm

The 3.9 conversion is producing close to peak torque from 3750rpm to 5500rpm.
Hence why the large capacity conversions make for such excellent road car engines.

I’ve often said that my stock 996.2 3.6 feels more torquey than the old Mk 1 996 GT3’s I owned.
Both cars produce the same peak torque figure (273) but the M96 C2 engine produces it at 4250 rpm, as opposed to the GT3 at 5500rpm. No prizes for guessing which feels more potent low down in the rev range where most drivers spend 90% of their time …

Adding 50-60 torques to my car would make it feel far quicker between 3000 and 5000rpm than a Mk 1 or Mk2 996 GT3 in everyday driving on give and take roads, and without all the high rev histrionics.

Thanks, those charts give you much more of an idea of the power hike, it also shows 365 bhp for the 3.9 rather than the 351 bhp on the advertised car?

That's huge chunk of extra torque you have throughout most of the rev range, but the vap tails off close to the redline, presumably resulting in closer bhp figures than you might expect?

[911Spanker]

BandOfBrothers said:

Slippydiff said:

BandOfBrothers said:

Those are some pretty bold claims - do you have any dyno charts so we can see what the torque curve looks like?

Hartech 3.9 996.2 3.6 conversion



365 ponies

324 torques.

A 996 GT3 (Mk1) produces 273 torques at 5000rpm

The 3.9 conversion is producing close to peak torque from 3750rpm to 5500rpm.
Hence why the large capacity conversions make for such excellent road car engines.

I’ve often said that my stock 996.2 3.6 feels more torquey than the old Mk 1 996 GT3’s I owned.
Both cars produce the same peak torque figure (273) but the M96 C2 engine produces it at 4250 rpm, as opposed to the GT3 at 5500rpm. No prizes for guessing which feels more potent low down in the rev range where most drivers spend 90% of their time …

Adding 50-60 torques to my car would make it feel far quicker between 3000 and 5000rpm than a Mk 1 or Mk2 996 GT3 in everyday driving on give and take roads, and without all the high rev histrionics.

Thanks, those charts give you much more of an idea of the power hike, it also shows 365 bhp for the 3.9 rather than the 351 bhp on the advertised car?

That's huge chunk of extra torque you have throughout most of the rev range, but the vap tails off close to the redline, presumably resulting in closer bhp figures than you might expect?

Yep, these cars are about torque rather than peak HP. A 3.9 with "only" 365 bhp would likely be much quicker than a standard 3.8 997.2 with 385 bhp in the real world.

Given the gear ratios top end power is somewhat wasted in the UK..

[freedman]

Interesting early car here

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202402297...

[ATM]

BandOfBrothers said:

But a car with a broken engine must still be worth £5k, so all on it's costing you £28k+ to end up in a 3.9 996 with 350 bhp.

For some reason you seem to be confusing a person thinking logically and a person spending money on an old Porsche.

[ATM]

freedman said:

Interesting early car here

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202402297...

Been for sale for months and months, maybe even a year. The owner bought my mate's green 996.2 c2. He arrived in that x51 car when he came to view. He then immediately advertised it for sale once he'd got the green one.

[PRO5T]

For reference, my Manthey built 3.9 996 GT3 (hope google translate has done a decent job!).