What am I getting wrong about sports cars?
Discussion
I'm "into" sports cars because I like the visuals, the sounds and I imagine that driving experience must be special. Most of what I know about sports and performance cars in general comes from Top Gear (and later Youtube). I have little real-world experience. And I wonder whether I have the wrong idea about sports cars.
I grew up in a European city where I didn't need a car and I wasn't interested in them. At some point in my mid-20s, I "got into" cars from rewatching Top Gear and notstalgia-playing Need For Speed, and what attracted me the most was engine sounds, followed by shapes.
I couldn't afford anything cool and focused on my career instead. But I spent YEARS watching sports cars on Youtube, lusting after Mustangs and Corvettes, gathering info and planning/thinking/dreaming which car I'd like and could realistically afford to own in future when I'm in a position to finally have one... while not owning ANY car at all.
I eventually started my journey by getting an old NB Miata (I hadn't driven any other cool car) and I loved specifically how much it felt like a REAL CAR compared to modern econohatches I had driven. It was slower, but it allowed me to FEEL speed. I loved how the steering wheel really FELT connected to the wheels, the gear shifter FELT connected to the gearbox, the 1.8 litre engine sounded bigger than in modern econohatches where you can barely even hear it, and I was sitting really low to the ground in the NB. I could rev it out in 2nd gear on a 30 MPH road in the city and FEEL like I'm going fast enough, getting all the sensations I EXPECT from a sports car -- with the exception of the V8 or other cool engine soundtrack. (I'm a huge fan of rock music and electric guitar, James Hetfield style, and somehow I see the connection with cool engine sounds - they both activate the same part of my brain).
I got out of my NB for a reason outside of my control, but I would've moved on sooner or later because I wanted something COOLER, more SPECIAL (the engine note in the NB wasn't very pleasant or exciting), more substantial and I couldn't stand the whole convertible thing, it felt too much like being in a tent, I'm not a top-less driver. Plus I could trade some of that feel and engine sound volume for a nicer cabin (no engine bay fumes, better window defogging), nicer/smoother engine note.
I thought: "this was a good start, a pretty visceral experience; I know newer cars will feel more substantial and I will feel more removed from the road, but they'll be great!". I tried ND Miata and GR86, in the city, and I was disappointed (moreso with the ND than the GR86).
ND felt pretty pedestrian, very econohatchbacky to me: I didn't care about the speed, I wasn't feeling connected to the car, it didn't ooze any specialness when inside (even if it's the hottest looking Miata on the outside).
GR86 had a vibe of "special", but it felt very artificial, not-real (as in: this is a computer game, not a real physical car) when driving withing the 30 MPH speed limit in the city. It was waking up when I pushed it over that for a brief moment, but that's unsustainable.
This [limited] experience made me seriously rethink my whole being "into" cars.
I'm into INTERACTING with the car rather than going fast (which, let's be honest, means going ABOVE speed limit) - which is contrary to what I hear from the vast majority of car enthusiast on the internet. I like to go over the speed limit sometimes, but I don't see this as a sustainable model, ie I'm going to live within the speed limit most of the time, so I focus on the kind of driving that can be had on busy roads and where I live (without having to drive an hour to find an empty driving road where I can speed). But it looks like I have UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS of sports cars. I expect them to FEEL SPECIAL while driving on normal roads. I expect to be entertained by the engagement, connectedness. But that seems to be not what modern [affordable] sports cars are geared towards. Maybe that's not what cars are actually about? Even journalists are saying that many cars have become less engaging to drive at lower speeds - and yet they still praise the ND and GR86, so that means that either engagement is not a function of a sports car, or I completely misunderstand engagement. So maybe I'm focusing on the WRONG aspect of driving a sports car? Maybe it's not about what I THINK it is about? What is it then?
Clearly I'm focusing on the wrong thing and just missing something very obvious. I do tend to see the world differently. So I'm trying to figure out what to do with all this; whether I'm some kind of wannabe who THINKS he's into cars but is in reality just maybe a brainwashed sheep or something? My enthusiasm for cars came from watching guys drive unobtainium on Top Gear instead of actually thrashing parents' econobox, afterall.
I grew up in a European city where I didn't need a car and I wasn't interested in them. At some point in my mid-20s, I "got into" cars from rewatching Top Gear and notstalgia-playing Need For Speed, and what attracted me the most was engine sounds, followed by shapes.
I couldn't afford anything cool and focused on my career instead. But I spent YEARS watching sports cars on Youtube, lusting after Mustangs and Corvettes, gathering info and planning/thinking/dreaming which car I'd like and could realistically afford to own in future when I'm in a position to finally have one... while not owning ANY car at all.
I eventually started my journey by getting an old NB Miata (I hadn't driven any other cool car) and I loved specifically how much it felt like a REAL CAR compared to modern econohatches I had driven. It was slower, but it allowed me to FEEL speed. I loved how the steering wheel really FELT connected to the wheels, the gear shifter FELT connected to the gearbox, the 1.8 litre engine sounded bigger than in modern econohatches where you can barely even hear it, and I was sitting really low to the ground in the NB. I could rev it out in 2nd gear on a 30 MPH road in the city and FEEL like I'm going fast enough, getting all the sensations I EXPECT from a sports car -- with the exception of the V8 or other cool engine soundtrack. (I'm a huge fan of rock music and electric guitar, James Hetfield style, and somehow I see the connection with cool engine sounds - they both activate the same part of my brain).
I got out of my NB for a reason outside of my control, but I would've moved on sooner or later because I wanted something COOLER, more SPECIAL (the engine note in the NB wasn't very pleasant or exciting), more substantial and I couldn't stand the whole convertible thing, it felt too much like being in a tent, I'm not a top-less driver. Plus I could trade some of that feel and engine sound volume for a nicer cabin (no engine bay fumes, better window defogging), nicer/smoother engine note.
I thought: "this was a good start, a pretty visceral experience; I know newer cars will feel more substantial and I will feel more removed from the road, but they'll be great!". I tried ND Miata and GR86, in the city, and I was disappointed (moreso with the ND than the GR86).
ND felt pretty pedestrian, very econohatchbacky to me: I didn't care about the speed, I wasn't feeling connected to the car, it didn't ooze any specialness when inside (even if it's the hottest looking Miata on the outside).
GR86 had a vibe of "special", but it felt very artificial, not-real (as in: this is a computer game, not a real physical car) when driving withing the 30 MPH speed limit in the city. It was waking up when I pushed it over that for a brief moment, but that's unsustainable.
This [limited] experience made me seriously rethink my whole being "into" cars.
I'm into INTERACTING with the car rather than going fast (which, let's be honest, means going ABOVE speed limit) - which is contrary to what I hear from the vast majority of car enthusiast on the internet. I like to go over the speed limit sometimes, but I don't see this as a sustainable model, ie I'm going to live within the speed limit most of the time, so I focus on the kind of driving that can be had on busy roads and where I live (without having to drive an hour to find an empty driving road where I can speed). But it looks like I have UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS of sports cars. I expect them to FEEL SPECIAL while driving on normal roads. I expect to be entertained by the engagement, connectedness. But that seems to be not what modern [affordable] sports cars are geared towards. Maybe that's not what cars are actually about? Even journalists are saying that many cars have become less engaging to drive at lower speeds - and yet they still praise the ND and GR86, so that means that either engagement is not a function of a sports car, or I completely misunderstand engagement. So maybe I'm focusing on the WRONG aspect of driving a sports car? Maybe it's not about what I THINK it is about? What is it then?
Clearly I'm focusing on the wrong thing and just missing something very obvious. I do tend to see the world differently. So I'm trying to figure out what to do with all this; whether I'm some kind of wannabe who THINKS he's into cars but is in reality just maybe a brainwashed sheep or something? My enthusiasm for cars came from watching guys drive unobtainium on Top Gear instead of actually thrashing parents' econobox, afterall.
Edited by turboLP on Sunday 23 June 18:25
Hoofy said:
I understand where you're going with this. Disappointed with your review of the 86 as I thought it was supposed to be good at normal speeds.
Like you, I realise that special doesn't have to mean fast. When I'm in the mood, my "everyday supercar" (911 Turbo) feels like an event just cruising at 15mph through my housing estate. I know a lot of people say it's boring and they end up in something much more exotic but when I jump out of my shopping car mk1 TT (which isn't a bad place to be or to drive if you're not The Stig) and into the 911, it feels like an event.
The problem with my current driving is that 50% of the time I drive a car, I just want to chill (because I've just hit the gym or tennis courts) or it's late at night and I just want to get home in comfort, so don't want the raw feel of the 911 (even if millions say it isn't raw, it feels tiresome to me!). Which is why I prefer an automatic and feel like I want something more comfy but still interesting.
Anyway, if you're still young and want an experience when you drive, you might want to try an Elise. The engine isn't much, though. Maybe you need a Lotus with a V6 if you want a decent sound. Or try an older TVR with a V8.
Or maybe it's worthwhile exploring classic cars like an MGA.
Which generation is your 911?Like you, I realise that special doesn't have to mean fast. When I'm in the mood, my "everyday supercar" (911 Turbo) feels like an event just cruising at 15mph through my housing estate. I know a lot of people say it's boring and they end up in something much more exotic but when I jump out of my shopping car mk1 TT (which isn't a bad place to be or to drive if you're not The Stig) and into the 911, it feels like an event.
The problem with my current driving is that 50% of the time I drive a car, I just want to chill (because I've just hit the gym or tennis courts) or it's late at night and I just want to get home in comfort, so don't want the raw feel of the 911 (even if millions say it isn't raw, it feels tiresome to me!). Which is why I prefer an automatic and feel like I want something more comfy but still interesting.
Anyway, if you're still young and want an experience when you drive, you might want to try an Elise. The engine isn't much, though. Maybe you need a Lotus with a V6 if you want a decent sound. Or try an older TVR with a V8.
Or maybe it's worthwhile exploring classic cars like an MGA.
Thanks for the recommendations.
Mr Tidy said:
I test drove a GT86 back in 2014 and really liked it, apart from the engine which is supposed to be better in the GR86 so I'm surprised you were underwhelmed by it (although I haven't driven one).
I actually tried the old 86 too. The engine in the new one is definitely faster, but on the flipside, I couldn't FEEL the speed until I was going over 35. And NB Miata programmed me to expect to feel it at over 20.The new GR86 actually felt very slide-able, I felt like it could be lotsa fun if I could slide it on junctions (which is, obviously, a no-no). I imagine it could be a blast to drive on a secluded country road, but most of them are narrow here in the UK with poor visibility (thanks to the mandatory wall of shrubs and 0 or at times negative shoulder), so I wouldn't be having as much fun in it as I would in the old 86.
So overall, the old 86 was better for what I want out of the car.
BricktopST205 said:
I think what the OP is more saying is that he lives in a congested area of the country and cannot stretch the legs of a sports car and it feels too mundane at slow speed
Even a GR86 by the time you have revved out 3rd gear you are doing over 80mph. Cars are basically too fast to be enjoyed on a normal road without getting into stupid speeds.
Exactly. But it's not so much about congestion as it is for the fact that around where I live, the majority of roads are 30 MPH (let alone the ever-expanding 20 MPH zones). I live on the outskirts of the Greater London area (Carshalton, Epsom) and if I drive south, aside from the main highway (which is not very interesting, and it's 40 MPH anyway), all other roads are mostly 30 MPH and I keep hitting towns on the way (which kills joy), and if I do find a country road, it's usually not long enough and has either zero or negative shoulder (the two lanes are narrower than normal) and is surrounded by a wall of shrubs that obstruct visiblity on bends - visibility that's so essential on such a narrow road if you want to drive at speed... So there's not much opportunity to drive over 40 anywhere near where I live (at least I haven't found).Even a GR86 by the time you have revved out 3rd gear you are doing over 80mph. Cars are basically too fast to be enjoyed on a normal road without getting into stupid speeds.
I've done a trip up north and to Wales, and I've driven on faster wider roads, so it was nicer, but I'm not sure whether the situation is really much different when you live in or near a city (ie where jobs are). But even then: if a car delivers experience at 40 MPH, it's even more of an experience at 70. So a slower car that can be "good" at 30 MPH -- in my book -- is a win-win.
I started this thread just to see how my ideas about car enthusiast test in the real world. Thanks everyone for responding. This was enlightening.
As for car suggestions. I saw a lot Lotus mentions. Who knows, I might end up there eventually, but right now I'm wary of their reliability/ease of repair. I'm interested in Cayman - I imagine it's not Toyota reliable either (nor cheap to maintain), but it's probably easier to take care of in the end. I'm also interested in 370Z. And this thread planted a 996 911 seed in my head. But things like Caterham are too hardcore for me - I kinda want to have my cake and eat it too: a car that I can drive like a normal car with a passenger, and that would be the reason that I won't go down the classic car route. To be honest, a 2+2 would be ideal for me, but the choice is probably even more limited there. So I have 1st gen 86 on top of my mind. But if any of the aforementioned cars offer a better experience, then they win. Having said that, I don't have any experience of ownership of serious machinery, so I don't know how deep a money pit a serious sports car such as Lotus, Cayman or 996 could be.
One of the biggest concerns to me is ULEZ-compliability. I initially thought it was going to be a London-only thing, but now more cities have adopted it. I can imagine ULEZ zones will keep expanding. I am thinking about cars in long term (probably unwisely, but that's how I am). If I find what I like, I want to be able to keep it for the rest of my life, and I don't want to waste time/money on something that I'll HAVE to get rid of in a few years once they expand ULEZ or up the requirements (from Euro 3 to 4, for example). I don't want to get attached to something that I'll have to let go.
As for car suggestions. I saw a lot Lotus mentions. Who knows, I might end up there eventually, but right now I'm wary of their reliability/ease of repair. I'm interested in Cayman - I imagine it's not Toyota reliable either (nor cheap to maintain), but it's probably easier to take care of in the end. I'm also interested in 370Z. And this thread planted a 996 911 seed in my head. But things like Caterham are too hardcore for me - I kinda want to have my cake and eat it too: a car that I can drive like a normal car with a passenger, and that would be the reason that I won't go down the classic car route. To be honest, a 2+2 would be ideal for me, but the choice is probably even more limited there. So I have 1st gen 86 on top of my mind. But if any of the aforementioned cars offer a better experience, then they win. Having said that, I don't have any experience of ownership of serious machinery, so I don't know how deep a money pit a serious sports car such as Lotus, Cayman or 996 could be.
One of the biggest concerns to me is ULEZ-compliability. I initially thought it was going to be a London-only thing, but now more cities have adopted it. I can imagine ULEZ zones will keep expanding. I am thinking about cars in long term (probably unwisely, but that's how I am). If I find what I like, I want to be able to keep it for the rest of my life, and I don't want to waste time/money on something that I'll HAVE to get rid of in a few years once they expand ULEZ or up the requirements (from Euro 3 to 4, for example). I don't want to get attached to something that I'll have to let go.
Edited by turboLP on Sunday 30th June 19:17
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