What am I getting wrong about sports cars?
Discussion
I'm "into" sports cars because I like the visuals, the sounds and I imagine that driving experience must be special. Most of what I know about sports and performance cars in general comes from Top Gear (and later Youtube). I have little real-world experience. And I wonder whether I have the wrong idea about sports cars.
I grew up in a European city where I didn't need a car and I wasn't interested in them. At some point in my mid-20s, I "got into" cars from rewatching Top Gear and notstalgia-playing Need For Speed, and what attracted me the most was engine sounds, followed by shapes.
I couldn't afford anything cool and focused on my career instead. But I spent YEARS watching sports cars on Youtube, lusting after Mustangs and Corvettes, gathering info and planning/thinking/dreaming which car I'd like and could realistically afford to own in future when I'm in a position to finally have one... while not owning ANY car at all.
I eventually started my journey by getting an old NB Miata (I hadn't driven any other cool car) and I loved specifically how much it felt like a REAL CAR compared to modern econohatches I had driven. It was slower, but it allowed me to FEEL speed. I loved how the steering wheel really FELT connected to the wheels, the gear shifter FELT connected to the gearbox, the 1.8 litre engine sounded bigger than in modern econohatches where you can barely even hear it, and I was sitting really low to the ground in the NB. I could rev it out in 2nd gear on a 30 MPH road in the city and FEEL like I'm going fast enough, getting all the sensations I EXPECT from a sports car -- with the exception of the V8 or other cool engine soundtrack. (I'm a huge fan of rock music and electric guitar, James Hetfield style, and somehow I see the connection with cool engine sounds - they both activate the same part of my brain).
I got out of my NB for a reason outside of my control, but I would've moved on sooner or later because I wanted something COOLER, more SPECIAL (the engine note in the NB wasn't very pleasant or exciting), more substantial and I couldn't stand the whole convertible thing, it felt too much like being in a tent, I'm not a top-less driver. Plus I could trade some of that feel and engine sound volume for a nicer cabin (no engine bay fumes, better window defogging), nicer/smoother engine note.
I thought: "this was a good start, a pretty visceral experience; I know newer cars will feel more substantial and I will feel more removed from the road, but they'll be great!". I tried ND Miata and GR86, in the city, and I was disappointed (moreso with the ND than the GR86).
ND felt pretty pedestrian, very econohatchbacky to me: I didn't care about the speed, I wasn't feeling connected to the car, it didn't ooze any specialness when inside (even if it's the hottest looking Miata on the outside).
GR86 had a vibe of "special", but it felt very artificial, not-real (as in: this is a computer game, not a real physical car) when driving withing the 30 MPH speed limit in the city. It was waking up when I pushed it over that for a brief moment, but that's unsustainable.
This [limited] experience made me seriously rethink my whole being "into" cars.
I'm into INTERACTING with the car rather than going fast (which, let's be honest, means going ABOVE speed limit) - which is contrary to what I hear from the vast majority of car enthusiast on the internet. I like to go over the speed limit sometimes, but I don't see this as a sustainable model, ie I'm going to live within the speed limit most of the time, so I focus on the kind of driving that can be had on busy roads and where I live (without having to drive an hour to find an empty driving road where I can speed). But it looks like I have UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS of sports cars. I expect them to FEEL SPECIAL while driving on normal roads. I expect to be entertained by the engagement, connectedness. But that seems to be not what modern [affordable] sports cars are geared towards. Maybe that's not what cars are actually about? Even journalists are saying that many cars have become less engaging to drive at lower speeds - and yet they still praise the ND and GR86, so that means that either engagement is not a function of a sports car, or I completely misunderstand engagement. So maybe I'm focusing on the WRONG aspect of driving a sports car? Maybe it's not about what I THINK it is about? What is it then?
Clearly I'm focusing on the wrong thing and just missing something very obvious. I do tend to see the world differently. So I'm trying to figure out what to do with all this; whether I'm some kind of wannabe who THINKS he's into cars but is in reality just maybe a brainwashed sheep or something? My enthusiasm for cars came from watching guys drive unobtainium on Top Gear instead of actually thrashing parents' econobox, afterall.
I grew up in a European city where I didn't need a car and I wasn't interested in them. At some point in my mid-20s, I "got into" cars from rewatching Top Gear and notstalgia-playing Need For Speed, and what attracted me the most was engine sounds, followed by shapes.
I couldn't afford anything cool and focused on my career instead. But I spent YEARS watching sports cars on Youtube, lusting after Mustangs and Corvettes, gathering info and planning/thinking/dreaming which car I'd like and could realistically afford to own in future when I'm in a position to finally have one... while not owning ANY car at all.
I eventually started my journey by getting an old NB Miata (I hadn't driven any other cool car) and I loved specifically how much it felt like a REAL CAR compared to modern econohatches I had driven. It was slower, but it allowed me to FEEL speed. I loved how the steering wheel really FELT connected to the wheels, the gear shifter FELT connected to the gearbox, the 1.8 litre engine sounded bigger than in modern econohatches where you can barely even hear it, and I was sitting really low to the ground in the NB. I could rev it out in 2nd gear on a 30 MPH road in the city and FEEL like I'm going fast enough, getting all the sensations I EXPECT from a sports car -- with the exception of the V8 or other cool engine soundtrack. (I'm a huge fan of rock music and electric guitar, James Hetfield style, and somehow I see the connection with cool engine sounds - they both activate the same part of my brain).
I got out of my NB for a reason outside of my control, but I would've moved on sooner or later because I wanted something COOLER, more SPECIAL (the engine note in the NB wasn't very pleasant or exciting), more substantial and I couldn't stand the whole convertible thing, it felt too much like being in a tent, I'm not a top-less driver. Plus I could trade some of that feel and engine sound volume for a nicer cabin (no engine bay fumes, better window defogging), nicer/smoother engine note.
I thought: "this was a good start, a pretty visceral experience; I know newer cars will feel more substantial and I will feel more removed from the road, but they'll be great!". I tried ND Miata and GR86, in the city, and I was disappointed (moreso with the ND than the GR86).
ND felt pretty pedestrian, very econohatchbacky to me: I didn't care about the speed, I wasn't feeling connected to the car, it didn't ooze any specialness when inside (even if it's the hottest looking Miata on the outside).
GR86 had a vibe of "special", but it felt very artificial, not-real (as in: this is a computer game, not a real physical car) when driving withing the 30 MPH speed limit in the city. It was waking up when I pushed it over that for a brief moment, but that's unsustainable.
This [limited] experience made me seriously rethink my whole being "into" cars.
I'm into INTERACTING with the car rather than going fast (which, let's be honest, means going ABOVE speed limit) - which is contrary to what I hear from the vast majority of car enthusiast on the internet. I like to go over the speed limit sometimes, but I don't see this as a sustainable model, ie I'm going to live within the speed limit most of the time, so I focus on the kind of driving that can be had on busy roads and where I live (without having to drive an hour to find an empty driving road where I can speed). But it looks like I have UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS of sports cars. I expect them to FEEL SPECIAL while driving on normal roads. I expect to be entertained by the engagement, connectedness. But that seems to be not what modern [affordable] sports cars are geared towards. Maybe that's not what cars are actually about? Even journalists are saying that many cars have become less engaging to drive at lower speeds - and yet they still praise the ND and GR86, so that means that either engagement is not a function of a sports car, or I completely misunderstand engagement. So maybe I'm focusing on the WRONG aspect of driving a sports car? Maybe it's not about what I THINK it is about? What is it then?
Clearly I'm focusing on the wrong thing and just missing something very obvious. I do tend to see the world differently. So I'm trying to figure out what to do with all this; whether I'm some kind of wannabe who THINKS he's into cars but is in reality just maybe a brainwashed sheep or something? My enthusiasm for cars came from watching guys drive unobtainium on Top Gear instead of actually thrashing parents' econobox, afterall.
Edited by turboLP on Sunday 23 June 18:25
Hoofy said:
I understand where you're going with this. Disappointed with your review of the 86 as I thought it was supposed to be good at normal speeds.
Like you, I realise that special doesn't have to mean fast. When I'm in the mood, my "everyday supercar" (911 Turbo) feels like an event just cruising at 15mph through my housing estate. I know a lot of people say it's boring and they end up in something much more exotic but when I jump out of my shopping car mk1 TT (which isn't a bad place to be or to drive if you're not The Stig) and into the 911, it feels like an event.
The problem with my current driving is that 50% of the time I drive a car, I just want to chill (because I've just hit the gym or tennis courts) or it's late at night and I just want to get home in comfort, so don't want the raw feel of the 911 (even if millions say it isn't raw, it feels tiresome to me!). Which is why I prefer an automatic and feel like I want something more comfy but still interesting.
Anyway, if you're still young and want an experience when you drive, you might want to try an Elise. The engine isn't much, though. Maybe you need a Lotus with a V6 if you want a decent sound. Or try an older TVR with a V8.
Or maybe it's worthwhile exploring classic cars like an MGA.
Which generation is your 911?Like you, I realise that special doesn't have to mean fast. When I'm in the mood, my "everyday supercar" (911 Turbo) feels like an event just cruising at 15mph through my housing estate. I know a lot of people say it's boring and they end up in something much more exotic but when I jump out of my shopping car mk1 TT (which isn't a bad place to be or to drive if you're not The Stig) and into the 911, it feels like an event.
The problem with my current driving is that 50% of the time I drive a car, I just want to chill (because I've just hit the gym or tennis courts) or it's late at night and I just want to get home in comfort, so don't want the raw feel of the 911 (even if millions say it isn't raw, it feels tiresome to me!). Which is why I prefer an automatic and feel like I want something more comfy but still interesting.
Anyway, if you're still young and want an experience when you drive, you might want to try an Elise. The engine isn't much, though. Maybe you need a Lotus with a V6 if you want a decent sound. Or try an older TVR with a V8.
Or maybe it's worthwhile exploring classic cars like an MGA.
Thanks for the recommendations.
Mr Tidy said:
I test drove a GT86 back in 2014 and really liked it, apart from the engine which is supposed to be better in the GR86 so I'm surprised you were underwhelmed by it (although I haven't driven one).
I actually tried the old 86 too. The engine in the new one is definitely faster, but on the flipside, I couldn't FEEL the speed until I was going over 35. And NB Miata programmed me to expect to feel it at over 20.The new GR86 actually felt very slide-able, I felt like it could be lotsa fun if I could slide it on junctions (which is, obviously, a no-no). I imagine it could be a blast to drive on a secluded country road, but most of them are narrow here in the UK with poor visibility (thanks to the mandatory wall of shrubs and 0 or at times negative shoulder), so I wouldn't be having as much fun in it as I would in the old 86.
So overall, the old 86 was better for what I want out of the car.
BricktopST205 said:
I think what the OP is more saying is that he lives in a congested area of the country and cannot stretch the legs of a sports car and it feels too mundane at slow speed
Even a GR86 by the time you have revved out 3rd gear you are doing over 80mph. Cars are basically too fast to be enjoyed on a normal road without getting into stupid speeds.
Exactly. But it's not so much about congestion as it is for the fact that around where I live, the majority of roads are 30 MPH (let alone the ever-expanding 20 MPH zones). I live on the outskirts of the Greater London area (Carshalton, Epsom) and if I drive south, aside from the main highway (which is not very interesting, and it's 40 MPH anyway), all other roads are mostly 30 MPH and I keep hitting towns on the way (which kills joy), and if I do find a country road, it's usually not long enough and has either zero or negative shoulder (the two lanes are narrower than normal) and is surrounded by a wall of shrubs that obstruct visiblity on bends - visibility that's so essential on such a narrow road if you want to drive at speed... So there's not much opportunity to drive over 40 anywhere near where I live (at least I haven't found).Even a GR86 by the time you have revved out 3rd gear you are doing over 80mph. Cars are basically too fast to be enjoyed on a normal road without getting into stupid speeds.
I've done a trip up north and to Wales, and I've driven on faster wider roads, so it was nicer, but I'm not sure whether the situation is really much different when you live in or near a city (ie where jobs are). But even then: if a car delivers experience at 40 MPH, it's even more of an experience at 70. So a slower car that can be "good" at 30 MPH -- in my book -- is a win-win.
I started this thread just to see how my ideas about car enthusiast test in the real world. Thanks everyone for responding. This was enlightening.
As for car suggestions. I saw a lot Lotus mentions. Who knows, I might end up there eventually, but right now I'm wary of their reliability/ease of repair. I'm interested in Cayman - I imagine it's not Toyota reliable either (nor cheap to maintain), but it's probably easier to take care of in the end. I'm also interested in 370Z. And this thread planted a 996 911 seed in my head. But things like Caterham are too hardcore for me - I kinda want to have my cake and eat it too: a car that I can drive like a normal car with a passenger, and that would be the reason that I won't go down the classic car route. To be honest, a 2+2 would be ideal for me, but the choice is probably even more limited there. So I have 1st gen 86 on top of my mind. But if any of the aforementioned cars offer a better experience, then they win. Having said that, I don't have any experience of ownership of serious machinery, so I don't know how deep a money pit a serious sports car such as Lotus, Cayman or 996 could be.
One of the biggest concerns to me is ULEZ-compliability. I initially thought it was going to be a London-only thing, but now more cities have adopted it. I can imagine ULEZ zones will keep expanding. I am thinking about cars in long term (probably unwisely, but that's how I am). If I find what I like, I want to be able to keep it for the rest of my life, and I don't want to waste time/money on something that I'll HAVE to get rid of in a few years once they expand ULEZ or up the requirements (from Euro 3 to 4, for example). I don't want to get attached to something that I'll have to let go.
As for car suggestions. I saw a lot Lotus mentions. Who knows, I might end up there eventually, but right now I'm wary of their reliability/ease of repair. I'm interested in Cayman - I imagine it's not Toyota reliable either (nor cheap to maintain), but it's probably easier to take care of in the end. I'm also interested in 370Z. And this thread planted a 996 911 seed in my head. But things like Caterham are too hardcore for me - I kinda want to have my cake and eat it too: a car that I can drive like a normal car with a passenger, and that would be the reason that I won't go down the classic car route. To be honest, a 2+2 would be ideal for me, but the choice is probably even more limited there. So I have 1st gen 86 on top of my mind. But if any of the aforementioned cars offer a better experience, then they win. Having said that, I don't have any experience of ownership of serious machinery, so I don't know how deep a money pit a serious sports car such as Lotus, Cayman or 996 could be.
One of the biggest concerns to me is ULEZ-compliability. I initially thought it was going to be a London-only thing, but now more cities have adopted it. I can imagine ULEZ zones will keep expanding. I am thinking about cars in long term (probably unwisely, but that's how I am). If I find what I like, I want to be able to keep it for the rest of my life, and I don't want to waste time/money on something that I'll HAVE to get rid of in a few years once they expand ULEZ or up the requirements (from Euro 3 to 4, for example). I don't want to get attached to something that I'll have to let go.
Edited by turboLP on Sunday 30th June 19:17
Mr Tidy said:
I lived in Sutton until 2000 so I can understand your pain!
But the A217 from Belmont to Banstead (aka the Mad Mile) still has a 60 limit (even if it was NSL not so long ago). And the B2218 from Belmont to Banstead past the prison still had an NSL limit the last time I went there, although there aren't any bends.
Although most of Surrey is miserable, with average speed cameras on most of the A217 and A24.
So I'll be going back to Scotland for the fourth time in October.
Yeah, I used to thoroughly enjoy these, but the problem is they're literally 1 mile stretches of straight road But the A217 from Belmont to Banstead (aka the Mad Mile) still has a 60 limit (even if it was NSL not so long ago). And the B2218 from Belmont to Banstead past the prison still had an NSL limit the last time I went there, although there aren't any bends.
Although most of Surrey is miserable, with average speed cameras on most of the A217 and A24.
So I'll be going back to Scotland for the fourth time in October.
tberg said:
Turbo LP,
I agree with much of what you said in your opening post. The idea of sports cars for me was originally optics. Thirty years ago when I was about 40 years old, I had friends with supercars, and I wanted one. My closest friend hid his Ferrari 512 bbi in my garage from his ex-wife. And I wanted to be part of that experience. I went out and bought a car that I thought I could afford that fit my narrative, a 1972 De Tomaso Pantera. It looked the part, made lots of noise, got admiring looks from onlookers, but was barely driveable. It would overheat or break down before I could back the 35 feet out of my driveway. In 2013 I bought a 5.0L Jaguar XKR, and I learned some lessons. Although not a sports car, it was quicker, more civilized (meaning I could drive it with shoes on which I couldn't do in my Pantera), was so easy to drive at speed on a track etc. that it changed my expectations of what I wanted out of a car. I parked the Pantera for 3 years, and one day decided that if I couldn't "translate" the lessons I learned from the XKR into the Pantera, I was going to get rid of it. I wasn't getting any younger, and finally I embarked on a 4 year transformation of the Pantera to make it a car I could drive wherever and whenever I wanted in reasonable comfort and luxury. It is now a thrilling ride even at 30mph, the lowness to the ground, the incredible roar from 6" behind your head, the supermodel looks, and the raw, analog feeling of driving a very mechanical feeling 5 speed manual, non power assisted steering which allows for an incredible amount of steering and body feel. About 6 months ago, I had the opportunity to drive a Ferrari F8 of a friend. My shock after doing so was that Ferrari had taken all of the "thrill" out of the car. Zero steering feel, the ride feel of a Cadillac hearse, a drive by wire throttle that gave you no indication of what you were doing. In a word BORING! I couldn't wait to get back into the Pantera. It had little to do with speed as undoubtedly the Ferrari would out perform the Pantera in every measurable category, but there was no enjoyment of the experience. I think you'd be happier with a vintage type of sports car whether it be something like a Triumph TR6 or an MGB, or a Ferrari F355 or 308 or even a Pantera. These cars have a much more fulfilling feel for the road and can excite you at much lower speeds while not breaking the bank. Good luck on your search.
Yeah, this resonates with me. Thanks for the story!I agree with much of what you said in your opening post. The idea of sports cars for me was originally optics. Thirty years ago when I was about 40 years old, I had friends with supercars, and I wanted one. My closest friend hid his Ferrari 512 bbi in my garage from his ex-wife. And I wanted to be part of that experience. I went out and bought a car that I thought I could afford that fit my narrative, a 1972 De Tomaso Pantera. It looked the part, made lots of noise, got admiring looks from onlookers, but was barely driveable. It would overheat or break down before I could back the 35 feet out of my driveway. In 2013 I bought a 5.0L Jaguar XKR, and I learned some lessons. Although not a sports car, it was quicker, more civilized (meaning I could drive it with shoes on which I couldn't do in my Pantera), was so easy to drive at speed on a track etc. that it changed my expectations of what I wanted out of a car. I parked the Pantera for 3 years, and one day decided that if I couldn't "translate" the lessons I learned from the XKR into the Pantera, I was going to get rid of it. I wasn't getting any younger, and finally I embarked on a 4 year transformation of the Pantera to make it a car I could drive wherever and whenever I wanted in reasonable comfort and luxury. It is now a thrilling ride even at 30mph, the lowness to the ground, the incredible roar from 6" behind your head, the supermodel looks, and the raw, analog feeling of driving a very mechanical feeling 5 speed manual, non power assisted steering which allows for an incredible amount of steering and body feel. About 6 months ago, I had the opportunity to drive a Ferrari F8 of a friend. My shock after doing so was that Ferrari had taken all of the "thrill" out of the car. Zero steering feel, the ride feel of a Cadillac hearse, a drive by wire throttle that gave you no indication of what you were doing. In a word BORING! I couldn't wait to get back into the Pantera. It had little to do with speed as undoubtedly the Ferrari would out perform the Pantera in every measurable category, but there was no enjoyment of the experience. I think you'd be happier with a vintage type of sports car whether it be something like a Triumph TR6 or an MGB, or a Ferrari F355 or 308 or even a Pantera. These cars have a much more fulfilling feel for the road and can excite you at much lower speeds while not breaking the bank. Good luck on your search.
KTMsm said:
That's because you don't seem to know what a Sports car is.
Typified by the English sports cars of the '50s and '60s. They weren't the fastest, they didn't have a great sense of occasion, but they were fun to drive
An MX5, MGF, MR2 Mk3 are all excellent examples of a Sports car you seem to be confusing Sports car with Supercar
Typified by the English sports cars of the '50s and '60s. They weren't the fastest, they didn't have a great sense of occasion, but they were fun to drive
An MX5, MGF, MR2 Mk3 are all excellent examples of a Sports car you seem to be confusing Sports car with Supercar
thejaywills said:
Sports cars of the 50s were much more exciting than the typical car of the day, ditto for the 60s. Fast forwards to the 90s and 00s we have a diminishing few left over. To me, personally, the MX5 is fun, does it tick all the boxes for a sports car for me? I'm not so sure. Personally, I've just never gelled with them that much.
Much much less so for a late model one. Which is why I say I don't think they're the quintessential sports car that many journalists mark them out to be (in stock form at least). Nothing wrong with them, I just like my sports cars to be a bit more exciting in a way that I'd imagine half of the MX5 target market don't, which is probably why so many going that route, who share that sentiment end up with a modified example.
I'm not really qualified to say anything on this, but I will anyway...Much much less so for a late model one. Which is why I say I don't think they're the quintessential sports car that many journalists mark them out to be (in stock form at least). Nothing wrong with them, I just like my sports cars to be a bit more exciting in a way that I'd imagine half of the MX5 target market don't, which is probably why so many going that route, who share that sentiment end up with a modified example.
From what I gather, current MX-5 is probably the closest thing to what a sports car was in the 1950s. That may be a capt. Obvious statement, but my argument is a little deeper. I have a feeling that, in the 1950s, no one even thought about "connectedness", "rawness" or engine sounds. The state of technology was such that these things were there in many cars. So people didn't drive sportscars specifically for the connectness, rawness and engine sounds -- they drove them just for the fun of going fast past the hedges with the wind in their hair. I will go out on a limb and say that I think that many (not saying everyone) would've accepted an electric roadster back in the day - instant torque, higher speeds, no oil leaks or engine overheating.
But as technological progress happened, cars evolved, the auto landscape changed, and the perception of what a sportscar is evolved to encompass more things, perhaps things that people took for granted in the olden days and was going away, and also things that were just not available back in the day (mid-engined V12 supercar), or not feasible to have in a sportscar of the day.
So the sportscar is now a "wider" concept than it was in the 1950s. It's not that a sportscar is either a 1950s British roadster OR Ferrari Enzo depending on who you ask. It's both. And you pick what you want to drive based on your preferences.
So current MX-5 is very much a sportscar for people who just want to drive with the wind in their hair. And Supra is a sportscar for people who want to drive fast. Both are sportscars and it's pointless to argue that Supra is not a sportscar, but rather is a supercar because it has more power than the first version of the first supercar did in the 1960s.
braddo said:
It is interesting to see how the changing relative values of these cars alter their appeal. Basically, a 986 Boxster is outstanding value.
Very few Elises are under £15k these days. Not many M3 coupes of any age under that price level either. Very few cheap NA MX5s (ignoring rusty basket cases) and a good NC 2 litre is £4k+. Which is about where Boxster prices start...
I knowTameRacingDriver had a terrible experience with a Boxster but £6-7k should buy a good 2.7, or maybe a 3.2 S. It's at the point where if you want a cheap track car with reasonable pace, a Boxster is better value than any 3-series BMW (which are too heavy and need a lot of modding)!
Having read about engine problems and expensive repair/maintenance bills with 996 (I just didn't read about other generations), I wonder whether 1st-2nd gen base Caymans are/going to be as bad down the line.Very few Elises are under £15k these days. Not many M3 coupes of any age under that price level either. Very few cheap NA MX5s (ignoring rusty basket cases) and a good NC 2 litre is £4k+. Which is about where Boxster prices start...
I knowTameRacingDriver had a terrible experience with a Boxster but £6-7k should buy a good 2.7, or maybe a 3.2 S. It's at the point where if you want a cheap track car with reasonable pace, a Boxster is better value than any 3-series BMW (which are too heavy and need a lot of modding)!
white_goodman said:
Had an NB MX5 as my 4th car (only a year old at the time) and to be honest to drive I didn't much like it (but it was pretty and I loved the idea of owning a "flash" convertible sports car at 24 years old). I thought the engine was a bit of a "boat anchor" out of a family hatchback that wasn't particularly keen to rev and sounded harsh when I did and the handling wasn't great. I found that mine was more prone to understeer than oversteer and generally too much grip and not enough power (16 inch wheels). Nice gearbox, 100% reliable and easy to live with though.
So I sold it after about a year of ownership and bought an E30 325i Convertible. Objectively worse handling but more steering feel, a lovely silky smooth straight six engine that sounded fantastic and definitely more power than grip on 15s!
I also found my 205 GTi, Corrado VR6 and newage Impreza WRX a more enjoyable driving experience than the NB on the open road.
If you're set on a "sports car" though, the ND2 MX5/GR86 sound pretty perfect for something 'modern". Relatively light, manual gearboxes, revvy NA engines etc and yet should be fairly easy to live with. Not tried a GR86 yet but I loved the GT86 I test drove in spite of the so-so engine, it's the closest I've experienced for feel to an older car but the GR86 with the extra power and without the torque dip just seems like it would be the complete package.
But maybe go with something older. Would have loved an Elise when I got my NB but way out of budget but I wonder if I should have gone with an NA MX5/mk3 MR2/6-pot Z3 instead. I regret not owning a mid-engined car when they were still affordable. A 350Z/370Z is worth a look too? More reliable/cheaper to run than a Porsche, lusty NA V6 and quite "raw" by all accounts.
But playing "devil's advocate", maybe a sports car is not what you want at all. We mock the YT generation for buying supercars and driving them around London but maybe that's not so silly after all. You can hardly use a fraction of their performance on any UK road but I bet you get a sense of occassion even driving at 30mph in them.
Not suggesting you buy a supercar but a V8 SL/SLK, XK/F-Type/Mustang GT would still give you a warm glow/sense of occassion driving at low speeds I think and an automatic transmission works better for urban driving. More expensive to run certainly but more "special" at low speeds.
Conversely, something like a Supercharged MINI Cooper S or Fiesta ST would be quite fun for bombing around at lower speeds I think? Practical and easy to live with too and does RWD really matter?
Thinking more about my situation, it's important to stress that I'm not really into the whole blasting a roadster through tight corners at full throttle driving style. I trust there are thrills there, but one, I'm too chicken for that and two, I don't find that a sustainable model in the real world with traffic etc. I have to admit that (somewhat to my chagrin*) I like acceleration and deceleration. I like to slow down before the corner and floor it on the way out. I like flooring it between traffic lights and slowing down gradually by letting off the throttle (not breaking hard). What I like about acceleration is for the most part the sound of the motor reving, and especially the sound of RPM dropping naturally when you let off the gas pedal at high RPM.So I sold it after about a year of ownership and bought an E30 325i Convertible. Objectively worse handling but more steering feel, a lovely silky smooth straight six engine that sounded fantastic and definitely more power than grip on 15s!
I also found my 205 GTi, Corrado VR6 and newage Impreza WRX a more enjoyable driving experience than the NB on the open road.
If you're set on a "sports car" though, the ND2 MX5/GR86 sound pretty perfect for something 'modern". Relatively light, manual gearboxes, revvy NA engines etc and yet should be fairly easy to live with. Not tried a GR86 yet but I loved the GT86 I test drove in spite of the so-so engine, it's the closest I've experienced for feel to an older car but the GR86 with the extra power and without the torque dip just seems like it would be the complete package.
But maybe go with something older. Would have loved an Elise when I got my NB but way out of budget but I wonder if I should have gone with an NA MX5/mk3 MR2/6-pot Z3 instead. I regret not owning a mid-engined car when they were still affordable. A 350Z/370Z is worth a look too? More reliable/cheaper to run than a Porsche, lusty NA V6 and quite "raw" by all accounts.
But playing "devil's advocate", maybe a sports car is not what you want at all. We mock the YT generation for buying supercars and driving them around London but maybe that's not so silly after all. You can hardly use a fraction of their performance on any UK road but I bet you get a sense of occassion even driving at 30mph in them.
Not suggesting you buy a supercar but a V8 SL/SLK, XK/F-Type/Mustang GT would still give you a warm glow/sense of occassion driving at low speeds I think and an automatic transmission works better for urban driving. More expensive to run certainly but more "special" at low speeds.
Conversely, something like a Supercharged MINI Cooper S or Fiesta ST would be quite fun for bombing around at lower speeds I think? Practical and easy to live with too and does RWD really matter?
Edited by white_goodman on Monday 1st July 18:08
Edited by white_goodman on Monday 1st July 18:09
When I'm on the street, I get excited when I hear a V8 Mustang/Mercedes, 370Z or even a Subaru rumble. That stuff speaks to me somehow. My bro has a 1st gen turbo Forester with a loud exhaust: the car is pretty meh, too floaty, but the sound alone is something and flooring it is fun (shame the engine bay is so insulated you can only hear the sound thanks to the loud exhaust, though).
That, in addition to connectedness (to some degree) to the machine through the controls and some sensation of speed (ie not feeling like I'm wearing 5 condoms) is what I'm after.
In other words, I'm more after the sounds than agility, but while retaining connectedness. So it looks like maybe I'm more of a supercar crowd (not that I could ever afford that, not with EU/UK headed in no-ICE direction).
The funny thing is that sometimes when I think of sports cars, especially if I watch an ND Miata review and listen to the
Side-note: I actually kind of liked the engine note in the 1st gen 86, and the feel was alright (I'll have to drive it again, push a little more).
Edited by turboLP on Monday 15th July 21:06
Edited by turboLP on Monday 15th July 21:08
ATM said:
Perfect for a rear engined Porsche. Have you tried a 911?
They are made for this. Their ability to grip under throttle exiting a bend is their party piece. You can apply way more throttle than you can in other cars as the weight over the rear axle means they will grip more. You can almost feel this digging in and gripping where you would expect another car to start to lose grip and maybe start to spin an inside wheel or be twitching towards a slide. You will also feel the weight shift rear as you apply throttle and the front will naturally straighten up without straightening the wheels as the rear end starts to decide where the car is going. Having the engine in the back makes them unique. It's all about rear end grip which means grip exiting a bend and also getting the power down off the line.
Sounds good, but I'm wary of maintenance bills. But maybe there's no other way around it. I'll definitely try one out.They are made for this. Their ability to grip under throttle exiting a bend is their party piece. You can apply way more throttle than you can in other cars as the weight over the rear axle means they will grip more. You can almost feel this digging in and gripping where you would expect another car to start to lose grip and maybe start to spin an inside wheel or be twitching towards a slide. You will also feel the weight shift rear as you apply throttle and the front will naturally straighten up without straightening the wheels as the rear end starts to decide where the car is going. Having the engine in the back makes them unique. It's all about rear end grip which means grip exiting a bend and also getting the power down off the line.
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