My eyes have been opened...
Discussion
This New Year i started working as a designer at a new company - POD Point - who make electric vehicle charging posts.
Now as a PHer, and a long time member of a Supercar club i've been responsible for my fair share of CO2 emissions (a 12mpg RX-7 as a daily driver for a year didn't help!), but as an engineer and enthusiast I had an interest in electric vehicles.
Well after working in this company and being around the technology, it really is bloody exciting stuff.
What many people don't seem to realise is that EVs are not in any way meant to replace everyone's car... yet. They can however replace cars which are only used for short journeys.
I know it's a very emotive subject for many, but I urge any petrolheads to really do some investigating - read some articles, read Robert Llewellyn's blogs etc, it's great stuff.
I think that next year we'll very likely have an EV and a big V8 convertible in our household. The EV will have to be a full 4 seater with a range of 100miles+, which is easily achievable by the Nissan Leaf, Vauxhall Ampera etc.
Not really sure why i posted this, and i'm expecting a lot of 'Cool story bro' images, but hey ho.
Now as a PHer, and a long time member of a Supercar club i've been responsible for my fair share of CO2 emissions (a 12mpg RX-7 as a daily driver for a year didn't help!), but as an engineer and enthusiast I had an interest in electric vehicles.
Well after working in this company and being around the technology, it really is bloody exciting stuff.
What many people don't seem to realise is that EVs are not in any way meant to replace everyone's car... yet. They can however replace cars which are only used for short journeys.
I know it's a very emotive subject for many, but I urge any petrolheads to really do some investigating - read some articles, read Robert Llewellyn's blogs etc, it's great stuff.
I think that next year we'll very likely have an EV and a big V8 convertible in our household. The EV will have to be a full 4 seater with a range of 100miles+, which is easily achievable by the Nissan Leaf, Vauxhall Ampera etc.
Not really sure why i posted this, and i'm expecting a lot of 'Cool story bro' images, but hey ho.
Edited by Beefmeister on Wednesday 19th January 09:01
Very good points indeed chum and it certainly is an emotive subject. I think it was best summed up by Leno when he said something along the lines of:
"When the car was invented it didn't kill off the horse, it merely left the horse to be enjoyed for fun and recreational purposes....."
Maybe the electric car will do the same for the car enthusiast and his sports car......
"When the car was invented it didn't kill off the horse, it merely left the horse to be enjoyed for fun and recreational purposes....."
Maybe the electric car will do the same for the car enthusiast and his sports car......
Edited by L100NYY on Wednesday 19th January 09:10
Makes sense if you have the congestion charge. Everywhere else in the country I commend you to prove to me a sound financial argument over a used or new small 4 seater car.
If you do your sums and compare say the Leaf with a Nissan Note (as an example of a similar car) you will find that it is going to cost you thousands more per year to run the Leaf (not accounting for congestion charge)
If you do your sums and compare say the Leaf with a Nissan Note (as an example of a similar car) you will find that it is going to cost you thousands more per year to run the Leaf (not accounting for congestion charge)
Couldn't agree more. Proper EVs for urban journeys are perfect (it's more efficient to generate the electricity in one big nuclear power station than a thousand car units). I looked at buying an electric scooter for my commute (12 miles in London) a while back, but never got anywhere.
What annoys me is a) the hybrids you see on the motorway, when a small diesel would be more efficient, and b) things like the g-wiz that aren't proper cars but whose owners smug it up endlessly.
What annoys me is a) the hybrids you see on the motorway, when a small diesel would be more efficient, and b) things like the g-wiz that aren't proper cars but whose owners smug it up endlessly.
My only issue with it is that is pointless if driving out of the city given limited range and length of time to fill up.
Inside the city it is fine, although a lot of folk living in flats have no access to a power point.
I guess that is what you are trying to sort out though.
What do you think about hydrogen fuel cell? Will that not make electric cars a bit Betamax?
Inside the city it is fine, although a lot of folk living in flats have no access to a power point.
I guess that is what you are trying to sort out though.
What do you think about hydrogen fuel cell? Will that not make electric cars a bit Betamax?
kambites said:
jdw1234 said:
What do you think about hydrogen fuel cell? Will that not make electric cars a bit Betamax?
What, you mean the electric car will be the technically better solution that loses out through poor marketing and adoption? I dearly hope not. 
You know what I mean!!!
:-)
jdw1234 said:
kambites said:
jdw1234 said:
What do you think about hydrogen fuel cell? Will that not make electric cars a bit Betamax?
What, you mean the electric car will be the technically better solution that loses out through poor marketing and adoption? I dearly hope not. You know what I mean!!!
:-)
motco said:
There is also the none too small matter of a loss of as much as 40% of the range when the cabin heater is used. 
Where do you get that number from? Admittedly it is a serious problem with EV's at the moment, but I wouldn't forsee a range drop like that unless it was a car with very low range only used in the city with the heater going full blast!taking 'emissions=bad' to be a load of old pony (certainly my view)
the only possible way that an EV can be cost competitive against a 'normal' car is if government(s) don't put tax on electricity used for road transport
would you trust the government to keep its grubby paws off a potential revenue stream if it started to get significant?
so, mr driver, you are using an EV that you charge up from your domestic supply that is taxed only at 5% VAT... we like that, because we are sick of collecting the ~75% tax on every drop of road fuel sold to power normal cars. Oh, and as a bonus, you don't need to bother paying any road fund licence duty either (even though the dvla still has to do the necessary admin and send you a disc) and, if you come to London, the mayor will waive the tenner a day congestion charge too.
And we promise never, ever to add any tax burden to your EV ownership experience...
hmmmm...
the only possible way that an EV can be cost competitive against a 'normal' car is if government(s) don't put tax on electricity used for road transport
would you trust the government to keep its grubby paws off a potential revenue stream if it started to get significant?
so, mr driver, you are using an EV that you charge up from your domestic supply that is taxed only at 5% VAT... we like that, because we are sick of collecting the ~75% tax on every drop of road fuel sold to power normal cars. Oh, and as a bonus, you don't need to bother paying any road fund licence duty either (even though the dvla still has to do the necessary admin and send you a disc) and, if you come to London, the mayor will waive the tenner a day congestion charge too.
And we promise never, ever to add any tax burden to your EV ownership experience...
hmmmm...
Some form of self contained electrical generation station, will be the way forward IMHO. Be it Hydrogen fuel cell, water recombination, or whatever. EV cars are such a nightmare of compromises, I could never justify buying one. They are (relatively) expensive to buy, unreliable, have varying ranges depending on what in car systems you're using. They require long charging periods, which are a nightmare if you run out of power, whilst on the hoof. I had an idea, a few years ago, to combat some of the issues with EV cars, whilst we wait for someone to come up with an infrastructure for Hydrogen. It involved designing a one size fits all, universal EV cell. These can be charged and stored by "EV stations" ( like petrol stations, but for EV cells). If you run out of juice, you simply exchange your dead cell for a charged one, pay a charging fee, slot the new cell in and off you go. It would take too much cooperation from manufacturers though. Unless each manufacturer had it's own network of EV stations, of course.
As a general "tech enthusiast" I can't wait until I can afford a workable electric car. If my commute was within the range of an EV, and I could afford to buy one, then I'd certainly do it. I'll always love a petrol engine, but when you think about it, each of us having one as we sit nose to tail in traffic is a bit daft.
JPJPJP said:
taking 'emissions=bad' to be a load of old pony (certainly my view)
the only possible way that an EV can be cost competitive against a 'normal' car is if government(s) don't put tax on electricity used for road transport
would you trust the government to keep its grubby paws off a potential revenue stream if it started to get significant?
so, mr driver, you are using an EV that you charge up from your domestic supply that is taxed only at 5% VAT... we like that, because we are sick of collecting the ~75% tax on every drop of road fuel sold to power normal cars. Oh, and as a bonus, you don't need to bother paying any road fund licence duty either (even though the dvla still has to do the necessary admin and send you a disc) and, if you come to London, the mayor will waive the tenner a day congestion charge too.
And we promise never, ever to add any tax burden to your EV ownership experience...
hmmmm...
From what is potentially a totally naive point of view, I'd expect a Socialist government to rip the arse out of it for all it's worth to spend it on pointless job creation schemes, and I'd expect a Capitalist government to leave it alone if we weren't buying in the electricity from other countriesthe only possible way that an EV can be cost competitive against a 'normal' car is if government(s) don't put tax on electricity used for road transport
would you trust the government to keep its grubby paws off a potential revenue stream if it started to get significant?
so, mr driver, you are using an EV that you charge up from your domestic supply that is taxed only at 5% VAT... we like that, because we are sick of collecting the ~75% tax on every drop of road fuel sold to power normal cars. Oh, and as a bonus, you don't need to bother paying any road fund licence duty either (even though the dvla still has to do the necessary admin and send you a disc) and, if you come to London, the mayor will waive the tenner a day congestion charge too.
And we promise never, ever to add any tax burden to your EV ownership experience...
hmmmm...
HellDiver said:
When electric cars can do a 200 mile round trip in winter with heater, lights and radio going, with power left over, THEN I might consider one.
Somehow I don't think I'll be getting one any time soon...
+1Somehow I don't think I'll be getting one any time soon...
The technology may be cool and exciting but for those of us living in rural areas with alot of miles to cover its got a long way to go
I think in the future there will have to be a common battery design for all EVs. Then combined with a better infrastructure there would be 'battery swap' stations (most likely on motorways) where you can swap your batteries for fully charged ones in 10mins for £10.
That way people can drive their 100mile range cars a lot further by simply swapping the batteries out mid-journey when they're topping for a wazz.
The next step is inductive charging also, so there's no need for cables. You just drive your car into a spot, swipe your tag on the post and your car starts charging. Very cool...
Actually, i think the most realistic 'next step' to take EVs to the masses are the true Range Extender cars. They have a small engine (3cyl, <1.0 litre usually) which runs at a set (highly efficient) rpm, which charges (or tops up) the battery as it goes along. Those engines can do up to 300mpg if designed right, so they should equate to massive economy benefits to the modern motorist.
The Chevy Volt/Vaukxhall Ampera was supposed to be like this, but i believe it's now been revealed that the engine is actually directly connected to the wheels, so it's technically a hybrid, not a RE. Shame, as its a very good looking car.
That way people can drive their 100mile range cars a lot further by simply swapping the batteries out mid-journey when they're topping for a wazz.
The next step is inductive charging also, so there's no need for cables. You just drive your car into a spot, swipe your tag on the post and your car starts charging. Very cool...
Actually, i think the most realistic 'next step' to take EVs to the masses are the true Range Extender cars. They have a small engine (3cyl, <1.0 litre usually) which runs at a set (highly efficient) rpm, which charges (or tops up) the battery as it goes along. Those engines can do up to 300mpg if designed right, so they should equate to massive economy benefits to the modern motorist.
The Chevy Volt/Vaukxhall Ampera was supposed to be like this, but i believe it's now been revealed that the engine is actually directly connected to the wheels, so it's technically a hybrid, not a RE. Shame, as its a very good looking car.
Edited by Beefmeister on Wednesday 19th January 09:42
Beefmeister said:
I think in the future there will have to be a common battery design for all EVs. Then combined with a better infrastructure there would be 'battery swap' stations (most likely on motorways) where you can swap your batteries for fully charged ones in 10mins for £10.
That way people can drive their 100mile range cars a lot further by simply swapping the batteries out mid-journey when they're topping for a wazz.
The next step is inductive charging also, so there's no need for cables. You just drive your car into a spot, swipe your tag on the post and your car starts charging. Very cool...
This would be good, just pull over and swap your Battery over, pay £100 and get another 100 miles! Considering fuel will be 589.9pence per litre by then!That way people can drive their 100mile range cars a lot further by simply swapping the batteries out mid-journey when they're topping for a wazz.
The next step is inductive charging also, so there's no need for cables. You just drive your car into a spot, swipe your tag on the post and your car starts charging. Very cool...
Gwagon111 said:
Some form of self contained electrical generation station, will be the way forward IMHO. Be it Hydrogen fuel cell, water recombination, or whatever. EV cars are such a nightmare of compromises, I could never justify buying one. They are (relatively) expensive to buy, unreliable, have varying ranges depending on what in car systems you're using. They require long charging periods, which are a nightmare if you run out of power, whilst on the hoof. I had an idea, a few years ago, to combat some of the issues with EV cars, whilst we wait for someone to come up with an infrastructure for Hydrogen. It involved designing a one size fits all, universal EV cell. These can be charged and stored by "EV stations" ( like petrol stations, but for EV cells). If you run out of juice, you simply exchange your dead cell for a charged one, pay a charging fee, slot the new cell in and off you go. It would take too much cooperation from manufacturers though. Unless each manufacturer had it's own network of EV stations, of course.
The exchangeable battery pack has already been thought of, in fact it's in use in Israel I believe. You drive up to the station, press a button and a mechanism comes out of the ground and swaps your battery for a fresh one. The main problem is that it's a bit like restricting every car manufacturer in the world to using only one or two different engines on sale, and it reduces vehicle diversity, particularly with regards to weight, size and performance.Also, most of those problems you describe apply to conventional cars to a greater or lesser extent, we're just used to dealing with them. Also there's no reason why an EV would be less reliable than a conventional car, mechanically they're far simpler, with far fewer moving parts to wear out and service.
I think the problem is that the technology hasn't reached a point where there are no compromises over a conventional car, and (I've said it a dozen times on here) there will only be uptake when either there are plenty of ultrafast charging stations equivalent to petrol stations where you can 'fill up' your EV in 5 or 10 minutes (not as unfeasible as you might think), or if the EV had such a huge range that it can be driven as far as a human can drive it without needing to sleep. For example, if an EV had a 1000 or even 1500 mile range, when would you need to recharge it en route?
It's not as unlikely as you might think, and the technology is steadily progressing at the moment. If it's possible to have a 400kg battery pack that covers 200-300 miles now, it's entirely possible there will be one that covers 8-900 miles in 10 or 15 years time.
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