407 ARX - Genuine Works Cooper of Log Book Recreation?
Discussion
Back in the '60's before he had kids, my dad did some rallying. One of his cars was an ex-works Mini Cooper registration 407 ARX, which he campaigned for a couple of years and then sold.
Those that know say that the car was some years later dismantled/broken and all the special parts sold off. Not suprising as being a works then private rally car it had led a very tough life and was pretty knackered, and at that time had little value.
Now of course genuine Works Coopers are worth very significant money.
Suprise suprise when my dad's car (well registration number) turns up on Top Gear together with a bodyshell of the same age (My dad categorically states that it was not the bodyshell that the car had when he owned it as it clearly did not have the very obvious modifications that the car had at that time).
The car then went on to win a premium rate viewer phone in and was 'restored' at Top Gear viewer's expense. The owner of the log book was no doubt chuffed to bits that Top Gear paid for all the work, and is now advertising the car for sale for over £100,000
Is the consensus that this is still a genuine Works Cooper, or merely a recreation?
Would the value be different if it were one or the other?
If it is not the origin bodyshell (or a brand new replacement) then i was under the impression that DVLA would change the registration number for a Q plate.
Having had the good fortune of having his registration document & bodyshell restored/built into a potentially very valuable car at someone else's expense, i wonder if the proceeds might be used for the benefit of the classic car community as a whole - any suggestions?
Those that know say that the car was some years later dismantled/broken and all the special parts sold off. Not suprising as being a works then private rally car it had led a very tough life and was pretty knackered, and at that time had little value.
Now of course genuine Works Coopers are worth very significant money.
Suprise suprise when my dad's car (well registration number) turns up on Top Gear together with a bodyshell of the same age (My dad categorically states that it was not the bodyshell that the car had when he owned it as it clearly did not have the very obvious modifications that the car had at that time).
The car then went on to win a premium rate viewer phone in and was 'restored' at Top Gear viewer's expense. The owner of the log book was no doubt chuffed to bits that Top Gear paid for all the work, and is now advertising the car for sale for over £100,000
Is the consensus that this is still a genuine Works Cooper, or merely a recreation?
Would the value be different if it were one or the other?
If it is not the origin bodyshell (or a brand new replacement) then i was under the impression that DVLA would change the registration number for a Q plate.
Having had the good fortune of having his registration document & bodyshell restored/built into a potentially very valuable car at someone else's expense, i wonder if the proceeds might be used for the benefit of the classic car community as a whole - any suggestions?
The provenance of any ex works car is going to be slightly foggy... The cars were shelled and reshelled and engines and transmissions changed regularly. Real grandad's old axe stuff. Also, the plates used to be transferred from car to car - different cars would, obviously, be used on, say, the acropolis and corsica but the same reg would appear.
As an example, many moons ago my father's friend bought an Ex BL Triumph TR8 1000 lakes recce car. Essentially a fairly standard TR8 with minor mods. Its registration number though was TUD683T (sad aren't i?) which was a famous (Ypres, Manx etc) proper works TR7 V8.
As an example, many moons ago my father's friend bought an Ex BL Triumph TR8 1000 lakes recce car. Essentially a fairly standard TR8 with minor mods. Its registration number though was TUD683T (sad aren't i?) which was a famous (Ypres, Manx etc) proper works TR7 V8.
100 IAN said:
No i don't feel i have any claim to it in the slightest.
I might feel a little aggreived if i bought something for £100k thinking it was one thing and later found out it was not what i'd thought it to be.
If I was spending £100k (or indeed any money) on a competition car with an easily traceable heritage, and let's face it all competition cars have an easily traceable heritage, then I'd trace the history and confirm its genuine nature before doing the deal.I might feel a little aggreived if i bought something for £100k thinking it was one thing and later found out it was not what i'd thought it to be.
wish i hadn't started now....
http://www.tr7-tr8.com/thumbnails.php?album=9
here's a good example of how much juggling went on...
http://www.tr7-tr8.com/thumbnails.php?album=9
here's a good example of how much juggling went on...
This is something that happens frequently with old cars, there are plenty of vintage Ferraris, Jaguars, Bugattis etc. that are little more than a collection of original parts jumbled up with new bits. To the point that there are several well known cases of two cars appearing, with the same chassis number and the same sort of percentage of original bits.
A good and well known example (and one that is similar to the OP’s) relates to the Ferrari 330 p3/4 currently owned by “Napolis” of bespoke 330 p5 Enzo rebody fame, his car was much chopped and changed in period, spending time as a targa and a coupe, before catching fire at Le Mans. The car was eventually broken, with the frame being sent off to the scrap merchants, only to end up being repaired and sold on to David Piper as a replica chassis and then on to “Napolis” who rebuilt it and worked out that his frame had started life as #0846 (as the only p3/4 made there were several modifications that would only apply to this car and would be almost impossible to recreate)
it’s now back in 1 piece, with correct engine, gearbox and some original bodywork, it’s not as it was when it first rolled out of Maranello 40+ years ago, but it wasn’t when it last competed . . . . . net result is it’s still the p3/4, just with a few questions about its history.
In the case of the OP’s mini, as with any other ex-competition car, the buyers should do their own due diligence and value it accordingly. The seller isn’t trying to mask its history, just represent it for what it is an ex works mini that’s been re-shelled, like so many of its peers
A good and well known example (and one that is similar to the OP’s) relates to the Ferrari 330 p3/4 currently owned by “Napolis” of bespoke 330 p5 Enzo rebody fame, his car was much chopped and changed in period, spending time as a targa and a coupe, before catching fire at Le Mans. The car was eventually broken, with the frame being sent off to the scrap merchants, only to end up being repaired and sold on to David Piper as a replica chassis and then on to “Napolis” who rebuilt it and worked out that his frame had started life as #0846 (as the only p3/4 made there were several modifications that would only apply to this car and would be almost impossible to recreate)
it’s now back in 1 piece, with correct engine, gearbox and some original bodywork, it’s not as it was when it first rolled out of Maranello 40+ years ago, but it wasn’t when it last competed . . . . . net result is it’s still the p3/4, just with a few questions about its history.
In the case of the OP’s mini, as with any other ex-competition car, the buyers should do their own due diligence and value it accordingly. The seller isn’t trying to mask its history, just represent it for what it is an ex works mini that’s been re-shelled, like so many of its peers
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